The "club standard" CDJ. Lack of respect for controllerists. Why?
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The "club standard" CDJ. Lack of respect for controllerists. Why? Posted on: 05.03.2013 by Toya Spor I recently talked to a really skilled / established DJ and producer. I asked him what gear
he uses, and he said CDJs. When I told him I used a controller, he laughed then apologized, saying the standard was CDJs or Technics in the clubs/gigs he played at, and that barely anyone ever uses a controller, because no one takes them seriously. He agreed that controllers were good for an introduction to DJing though.Why do CDJs command more respect? Is it because of the lack of sync? (which isnt the case anymore because new CDJs have it, rekordbox, etc..) Are established DJs expected to "pay their way" by buying full CDJ/DJM setups before they're given respect / gigs, even if they can produce the same quality sound with a controller? Do controllers give off some sort of "toy" aura? To me, some of them do, but they are only intended for an introduction anyway. A controller like a Kontrol S4 seems to me like professional gear . I've heard mixes produced on S4s that sound better than guys with CDJ/DJM/Technics/pimp-ass setups. In the end, I believe respect should be given to people who make good sounding music. But I feel like there is this "pay your way" mentality from established DJs who don't want guys with controllers to show them up if their music is better. But I don't have the experience to know for sure. Why aren't controllerists given the same respect as a CDJ/technics user? | |
| Gaynell Rydberg 11.03.2013 | No way the US has a better clubbing scene. Well, the bigger cities might, but on average I don't believe we have better clubs (for EDM). Need to compare similar cities like Paris to LA/Miami or London to NYC etc. |
| Doreen Schurle 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by LoopCat
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| Ming Devis 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
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| Doreen Schurle 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by 3heads
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| Bernardo Wilburn 11.03.2013 | Oh, you know, used too much, too dependant. |
| Celestine Porebski 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
I might be a bit spoiled by Berlin evening life though. Edit: I feel I might have opened Pandora's box with this post. So you guys from the US, if my impression is vastly wrong, please don't take it the wrong way (it's quite late right now in Germany) and just correct me |
| Julissa Serrone 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
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| Doreen Schurle 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by makar1
We've got one, MAYBE two venues who specialise in house music, and a "club" of sorts (technically it IS a club, as it's 3 floors with a capacity of over a thousand, but it's just SO shitty inside) which plays metal. The rest are all mainstream barclubs. And 9 times out of 10, even in the specialist venues, there's always one idiot (usually women in their late 30s) who make stupid requests like Rihanna or something. Drives me insane lol. |
| Alphonso Deitchman 11.03.2013 | Yup, I've given up on mainstream entirely and am focusing on getting an alternative evening
going here, as well as getting a regular lesson session started for beginners. Mixing mainstream gets depressing very fast but it's where all the money's at.. |
| Doreen Schurle 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by makar1
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| Ming Devis 11.03.2013 | Round and round, round and round. |
| Alphonso Deitchman 11.03.2013 | 99.9% of the time the audience only cares about the sound coming out of the speakers, and how the DJ interacts with the crowd. Keeping the laptop out of the setup or away to the side helps avoid Serato face. |
| Doreen Schurle 11.03.2013 | Played at my first venue with pre-installed CDJ1000s toevening
, and I SORTA get it now. There's a "but" though - it's something that hasn't yet been mentioned in this thread, afaik. It's the CD wallet. I spent an hour doing a highly technical set, with nice transitions and 2 tracks playing simultaneously for most of the set; tweaking knobs, triggering effects, looping sections, juggling cuepoints; and yet, _I_ was bored shitless. I dread to believe what the audience was believeing. And then, the next guy comes on, and he's using the CDJs. He's darting around the booth, flipping through his CD wallet, swapping them in and out... YES, he's basically doing A-B mixing, and yet it LOOKED like he was doing more work. Now, we know 99% of the time, the audience doesn't have a bloody clue what the DJ is actually doing, so the question is... is DJing about the music, or is it just essentially a type of performance art? Either way, kinda sucked being shown up by a guy with a CD wallet |
| Rolanda Clodfelder 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by djdeanc
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| Artie Master 11.03.2013 | Exactly, if the floors moving, your doin well |
| Estella Waber 11.03.2013 | I gotta say the melbourne dubstep and drum&bass scene has a healthy mix of vinyl purists and controllerists alike. Some guys buy those all in one controllers to practice on and just use CDJs when out in the club to mix on. Why? Because it looks freaking retarded using a dinky little toy controller when the big REAL mixer and decks are sitting just next to it. That said, i like to plug in my Audio 2 and mix using the club mixer, with X1 as the controller for queing / effecting / grid jumping / selection etc. Its the best of worlds compact controllers like that. You get to piss everyone off unplugging shit but you still rock out on the industrial strength venue mixer :P Eh. The argument is pointless really. If anyone believes they're better for using a particular medium, so be it. Whatever helps them pump their dj ego. |
| Lisa Lochotzki 11.03.2013 | And piss people off because you got that last record in the bin, or any other "good customer" perks like that... *sigh* |
| Doreen Schurle 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by backtothefront
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| Lashawn Maycock 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Rukks
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| Doreen Schurle 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Rukks
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| Johnsie Zike 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by kooper1980
And nothings wrong if only the top club can afford top DJs. However should other DJs quit their job/hobby just because they don't perform as good as the to DJs and don't get booked by those top clubs? |
| Lang Abriel 11.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by edeoldi
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| Kristofer Krauel 10.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by edeoldi
And tell me exactly what is wrong with only the top clubs being able to afford the top DJ's? |
| Johnsie Zike 10.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by haze324
Simple economic theory shows that a market under these circumstances will not perform efficiently. The supply of DJs would be fixed to a certain amount, leading to situations, where truly skilled DJs could ask for extraordinarily high fees for their performances (oligopoly). Don't make the mistake in believeing that this would be beneficial for DJs in general. Club owners would go back to no-name, semi-skilled DJs to entertain the crowds during their weekly events, because only top-notch clubs could afford those truly skilled DJs. Now you should ask yourself if being a gifted DJ, is the destiny of a selected few in this world. An exclusive club of highly skilled music experts, so to say. Since DJing is not the same as performing live music and since there are way too many clubs for the given amount of skilled musicians (and also way too many "consumers" of partying), one should distinguish between live performers and DJs. The job of a DJ is to ensure that every guest in a club has a good time and gets their value for their money. Keep in mind that the entrance fee of an average club is much less, than, say, a ticket to a concert. Therefore a DJ does not have to create the same value (enjoyment) as a live performer. Now, opening up the market, by lowering the entry barrier raises competition in this market. Sure, the amount of truly ungifted and unskilled DJs will rise instantly. You are bound to encounter some shitty DJs in mediocre clubs and bars. It is easy to blame the DJ, who doesn't know any better, than to push the sync button and play one Top 40 hit after another. But if you are willing to go to venues like these, you should not expect any better, right? The only person to blame for a evening of shitty DJing and bad music is the organizer of the club. It is his job to ensure that the DJ in question fulfills the minimum requirements. If a club repeatedly features untalented DJs, it's reputation will eventually worsen and sophisticated music fans will not frequent this club any more. In general the following rule holds for any market: Lowering the entry barrier will inevitably increase competition. This will eventually (not instantly) lead to natural selection of truly talented DJs. Do not blame the simplicity of entering the market. Blame the consumers who are willing to buy cheap products (in this case people who frequent bad venues and the managers of those venues). If economic theory holds (and it almost always does) the increased supply of DJs will - in the long run - improve the quality of the music played in clubs. It may be true that many many DJs out there do not know how to beatmatch manually using turntables or CDJs, however they might be able to create awesome mashups on the fly, creating their own kind of atmosphere and set the evening on fire. General rule of thumb here: If you believe that you can go to a party with a low entrance fee and still enjoy quality music, you are mistaken. Spend those extra 10 bucks to go to the best venue in town and you'll see (and hear) what I mean. Otherwise ask yourself if an initial investment of 1000$+ ensures skill and passion or just shows that some pockets are deeper, than other. In the end it's not about which means you have to do what you want to do, but how you do it. Oh and what exactly is so bad about threads like this one?? I believe this is a highly interesting debate between advocates of obsolete industry standards and adaptors of new, innovative technology. |
| Julissa Serrone 10.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by pastabox
Originally Posted by pastabox
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| Brianne Duvoisin 10.03.2013 | Having money and having talent or having dedication have never been related. If anything, a big financial obstacle means shitty people who have money continue to get exposure simply because they're the only ones available Yes, making things mass market opens it up to a lot of hacks. But also to a lot of legitimate talent who otherwise may have never had the chance |
| Julissa Serrone 10.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by edeoldi
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| Johnsie Zike 10.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Cook
3. would kill of 70% of 'DJs' due to the sheer price of it
Dude, I don't know in which world and century you are living but it really doesn't seem to be this world in 2013. |
| Becky Momjian 10.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Cook
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| Dione Haimes 10.03.2013 | holy shit this thread is still alive? ... lets all go back to vinyl 1. you cant torrent vinyl 2. would help the music industry get back on its feet 3. would kill of 70% of 'DJs' due to the sheer price of it 4. i can start charging full whack for gigs again so im not getting undercut by an 18 y/o with his mums laptop, a vci 100 and the beatport top 100 torrent |
| Lannie Kutay 10.03.2013 | ^^^^^^^well said sir, that pretty much sums it up. Be considerate of others. Practice and enjoy. Mods please lock this thread. |
| Audrey Pinda 10.03.2013 | As a DJ who's getting more into throwing shows, promoting, and planning things out.... there are a few different things to consider. Most DJ's who use a controller make an absolute fucking mess of the booth. This is fact. Some put it back to a degree, but most can and will move anything they aren't using out of the way to make room for their controller. Which is a pain in the ass for the DJ who is coming in behind them, no matter what they are using. Now there are the cases when the DJ's are fine and they put things back, or don't move things ridiculously, but it's still usually a matter of figuring out what is still plugged in. And I absolutely HATE it when I see a turntable being used as a legit table for a controller. As others have said before, it's also a matter of time being put in. People who have only used controllers? That's the newest blood in the scene. Of course they are going to get crap about what they are using, because it's different. That's just how it is with humanity. Always. I don't knock controllers. I just expect more out of people who use them. |
| Doreen Schurle 10.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Sambo
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| Jetta Drenzek 10.03.2013 | I remember when I used to DJ on my phonograph cylinders in 1901 and all these newbies starting coming out with their vinyl records, and I was all "I do say, good sir, no one would take such a preposterous method seriously. Look how easy it is to match the tempo! It's tantamount to cheating, I do declare!" |
| Maude Milesky 10.03.2013 | I posted in this thread on page 2 came back today, 15 pages later,.... Damn are we 4 year olds? If you don't like controllers then don't buy a controller. If you don't like CDJ's then don't buy cd's. Whatever you choose, get good at it and let the crowd decide. |
| Cherly Wormely 08.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by ClrCreekRdr
Its like a heart surgeon that knows everything about the heart but has the slight idea on how to establish a nutrition/fitness program to keep his heart healthy... Not a personal attack on you creek. Just expressing myself... Stop being geeks and go back to basics... Stop settling.... Its always the same people complaining of the same old tire sound, people doing the same thing, the scene is not the same, the scene is whack.. Well, stop complaining and lead. Stop being sheep and buying every gadget out there. You are feeding into it. Demand vs Supply.... |
| Logan Hochendoner 08.03.2013 | If the DJ has entertained the audience and the venue is satisfied with the implementation, I feel like that's all that matters. For me, if a DJ rolled up with an iPOD and somehow made the audience happy, then that would be success. For me, bottom line: there are two groups the please, the venue and the audience. Audiophiles, other DJ's, etc need not worry about other people's business in my opinion. Maybe because I have been in the audience all of my life? Hey, but I am a newbie so take that for what it's worth. |
| Matt Kane 08.03.2013 | cdj/tt? we treat them nicely. they even get new dresses at our parties |
| Rolanda Clodfelder 08.03.2013 | Gah how times have changed .. ladies used to love DJ's with 12' Then it was 6' Then 4' was good enough These days they will settle for a measly 2' USB drive First off I'm all for controllers, BUT IMHO we're really only at the first stage of "pure" controllerists. Decent mainstream Controllers have not been out "that" long so if you haven't already been on the scene prior to the controllers-in-the-box scenario there is still a bad vibe surrounding their use. Why? .. Well DJ's who never learned on old skool decks and mixers are just coming out of the "apprenticeship stage" e.g. having spent time learning to DJ properly and work a crowd - which is IMHO the reason there is a lack of respect unless you have proven yourself beforehand with a setup that has already gained the thumbs-up in the industry, something that also took its time. I used to work in a pretty big club going back aways and while Denon 2000's had been adopted by the majority of mainstream clubs since the mid 90's we didn't have a single CD deck in the building it wasn't until the cdj 500s (thats a cdj 700 for the USA guys) were introduced that the club invested in 2 pairs, they sat pretty much untouched by every DJ, resident or guest for almost 2 years - everyone single DJ was on vinyl only and honestly felt that using CD decks was cheating or for whatever reason that it required more skill to use vinyl (which it really didn't). Looking back it was was totally ridiculous, the only thing you could not do on a CDJ was scratch. The CD medium was solid and there to stay. (although the cost of blank CD's and recorders were nuts)... vinyl did however feel better though for sure and I feel like an idiot TBH for not helping to make that change ALOT sooner. Bottom line is that it's still widely thought that if you can use a CDJ proficiently its most likely you've earned your stripes in some make or shape, whereas the controller DJ may have picked their unit up last week or last year and just learned where the sync button is, pretty much the same way vinyl DJ's first thought about CDJ's "sure all you do is look at the BPM and you can beatmatch" There's also the "dedication" argument - DJ's who learned on CDJ's or technics would generally practice for more hours and knew their music inside out, as they slowly built their record or CD collection up before even getting to play a few tracks at a house party. The gear was more expensive, the music cost more, and it was pretty rare you'd find a DJ playing out in a club for the first time who couldn't get the basics of EQ/Phrasing/beatmatching and track selection down pretty well (not saying people didnt screw up) - these are simple things that really do take time and effort to do properly when you don't have keylock, mixed in key, autogain or effects etc. to get you out of dodge. We're in the same place now as we were then. Controllers are here to stay, they CAN do everything better than CDJ's. This time though you have a new argument however - SYNC, as any 'ol joe can beatmatch now without even looking at the screen anymore and of course controllers are now SO cheap and a DJ who regularly torrents the latest 100 top dubstep tracks can look so credible to the untrained eye (and I've seen my fair share of promoters/club owners who just pretended to know about music) that it can be difficult to separate the good DJ's from the bad. The result of this is that CDJ's are being used now as the yardstick that Technics were once used as. Final words : Give it time and the controllers will be used as the new yardstick against whatever brain implanted beat seeking nano technology dj software comes next. |
| Yevette Matatall 08.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
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