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Traktor Scratch Poor (a.k.a. Ghetto Timecode Control)

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Traktor Scratch Poor (a.k.a. Ghetto Timecode Control) Posted on: 09.04.2009 by Aurelia Lenox So after a few hours of tweaking, I have a working timecode vinyl control setup within Traktor Scratch Pro without the Audio8, or any other pricey 4in/4out card. In fact, my external soundcard only has 2 inputs! Since Traktor only allows you to use one sound device at a time, combining your available devices involves a little bit of software trickery. Here's my current setup: 2 used Technics SL-1200MK2 turntables ($200 each) 2 Traktor Scratch Control Vinyl ($12 each) Four RCA female-female barrel connectors and two RCA-to-1/8" adapters ($6 shipped from Monoprice.com) VCI-100 1.3fw w/ Black DJTT SE Skin ($300, bought from NateD) Miglia HarmonyAudio 2in/8out Firewire Card ($30 from Amazon) Macbook Pro Santa Rosa 2.4ghz ($600, bought broken and repaired) Oh, and a free copy of Traktor Scratch Pro from a friend who bought it and decided he liked Serato better Total: $1360. Here's how my current setup is connected: 1) Technics Deck A: Connect barrel connectors to phono output, then use RCA-to-1/8" to connect to Macbook Pro's stereo line-in. 2) Technics Deck B: Connect barrel connectors to phono output, then use RCA-to-1/8" to connect to HarmonyAudio's stereo line-in. 3) Onto the software trickery! Open up the Audio Midi Setup app in /Applications/Utilities and create an Aggregate Audio Device. More information here: http://www.apple.com/pro/techniques/aggregateaudio/. My Aggregate Device is: Macbook Line-In (2 in, resampled) HarmonyAudio (2 in / 8 out, set as clock) You'll want to set the clock to whatever device you're outputting to, and resample all your other devices to keep them in sync. The order of your devices in the list is that order that Traktor will see the inputs/outputs on the Aggregate Device. So if my list is in the above order, then in Traktor I would see: "Aggregate Device (4 in, 8 out)" ...which would correlate as listed below, for me. Aggregate Device In 0 -- Macbook Line-In Channel 0 Aggregate Device In 1 -- Macbook Line-In Channel 1 Aggregate Device In 2 -- HarmonyAudio In Channel 0 Aggregate Device In 3 -- HarmonyAudio In Channel 1 Aggregate Device Out 0 -- HarmonyAudio Out Channel 0 Aggregate Device Out 1 -- HarmonyAudio Out Channel 1 Aggregate Device Out 2-7 -- HarmonyAudio Out Channel 2-7 You'll likely have a different soundcard, and therefore a different quantity and combination of inputs/outputs, so I'm just defining the connections to clarify my example setup. 4) Now open up Traktor Scratch Pro. Set your audio device to the Aggregate Device, map your Input Routing/Output Routing, and go to Timecode Setup. Should now be seeing a timecode signal for Decks A and B! I had to adjust my inputs until I got a strong enough signal for Traktor to read the timecode. On my HarmonyAudio box I just turned the input gain all the way up, and for the Macbook Pro line-in, I went to Sound Preferences and set it Line-In to 75% gain (just before the 4th tick). Once everything was set, I had a solid, responsive vinyl setup, with a 2.5ms latency. Right now, I'm only using two of my soundcard's outputs into my monitors. For when I use this in a club, I would just use the HarmonyAudio's 8 outputs into the club mixer. 4 for Decks A&B into the mixer, 2 for monitoring and 2 for rec/ other line out. I'll put a vid of this setup working if anybody wants it, but a lot of you should have similar enough gear to try this out for yourselves. Good luck! -- Charlie Tran, Brooklyn bedroom DJ / web developer
juan garcia 24.08.2009	Originally Posted by DvlsAdvct But 4 channel mixers usually don't have 4 outs, unless you're using a mixing board, and that is a completely different beast, and usually doesn't have Phono Ins. correct, you need seperate outs for that to work. the inputs on the presonus can be linked together in stereo in the presonus mixer software. the problem with trying to split them for DVS use is that DVS systems use stereo timecode, it won't work with a mono timecode setup. depending on the program, some dvs software can do software pre-amping so you can use your phono input into a line input, but it doesn't work as good.
Deejay Atish 24.08.2009	Just for kicks on a early Monday morning I dusted off and unboxed my Final Scratch 2. Plugged in the good old Scratch AMP into the firewire port, and loaded up Traktor scratch Pro. Selected the Scratch AMP in the audio setup, it manually set all the inputs and outputs. Changed the sample rate to 48khz, and the latency down to 1.0ms. Dropped the needle on the record, and I can confirm that it works. I didn't do a whole lot of testing, I'll play around more when I have sometime.
Jansen Brown 24.08.2009	Looks nice, would still need one for each turntable...sting. This doesn't look too bad, cheap too. Kits are always good. http://www.jaycar.co.nz/productView....o&form=KEYWORD
Xavier Emanuels 23.08.2009	This is the best solution
Roberto Viccione 23.08.2009	But 4 channel mixers usually don't have 4 outs, unless you're using a mixing board, and that is a completely different beast, and usually doesn't have Phono Ins.
Harold Jaras 23.08.2009	Originally Posted by BentoSan You said it yourself, you need a phono preamp - you cant run the timecode vinyl directly into the firebox soundcard because it doesnt have phono inputs one solution (requires 4+ channel mixer): run tables into ch 1 & 2 phono ins. run line outs of ch 1 & 2 into firebox. then run the line outs from the firebox back into ch 3 & 4 line ins of mixer. this is of course if you want to mix externally. otherwise a 2 channel mixer will do just fine, but you won't really be using it for much other than a phono->line converter :P
Xavier Emanuels 23.08.2009	Originally Posted by laurens I need a preamp or phono stage. You said it yourself, you need a phono preamp - you cant run the timecode vinyl directly into the firebox soundcard because it doesnt have phono inputs
Harold Jaras 23.08.2009	mic inputs on firebox are mono
Jansen Brown 23.08.2009	Has anyone tried this with a Firebox? I have had a reasonable amount of success. Problem is that I have to use both mic inputs as left and right channels respectively at around 3/4 volume and +12db on the FB Control. I have tried running the phonos into the line in on the back of the Firebox but the signal is too weak because the turntable output needs to be boosted to line level first. I need a preamp or phono stage. Is there a way around this? Are the mic inputs on the Firebox stereo? If so, could they be split so Traktor recognizes them as separate left and right mono channels? Or some other way? I'm open to suggestions
Nick Ross 05.06.2009	Originally Posted by feralchimp Except there isn't, right? They're just good interfaces. If they did something to the input signal specific to TSP timecode, they'd be shite for regular audio recording. Right? I can't comment on that. I don't know. There's a reason why they work and other soundcards don't. I would believe it mostly has to do with the program recognizing it, but with all this work you are doing (including boosting signal strength), there has to be something that's set on the cards already.
Doug Bieling 05.06.2009	Originally Posted by BentoSan Thing is there is really no way to test the timecode with these using a cheap crappy soundcard just to check out what its like. You dont get a full picture of how good the timecode actually is. Timecode signals are very picky about your A->D converters in your soundcard so really there is no way to be sure that the performance that you are getting is an accurate represenation of how good the DVS actually is unless your doing A / B comparisons to another computer setup with an NI authorised soundcard right next to it - in which case you would just test using the authorised soundcard because its right there. My point here is that i believe this is currently a dodgy method of testing the software, until there has been extensive performance reviews by someone who has access to the audio an 8 or 4 soundcard and a ton of other soundcards to do A / B comparison testing. Of course im not saying not to try this out with what you have Just be realistic about the results you get using the timecode in this fashion - its not guarenteed your going to get results like a Audio 4 or 8 will give you. I used an m-audio usb audiophile to test and the timecode functionality with cds and then got an audio 8 .... feels no different at all. never tried vinyl though
Homer Chavarin 05.06.2009	You guys have been pretty good sports about all this, so before I do any more b*tching (here, at least) I really owe it to you to test my theories on the hardware I've got. I can't say you didn't warn me, and I take full responsibility for DVS-specific glitches that may result from using non-supported hardware.
Homer Chavarin 05.06.2009	Originally Posted by DvlsAdvct If my understanding is correct, the insides of the card(s) are designed to read the specific timecode signal that comes off of the records. Respectfully, I believe that belief is the result of years of creatively-worded marketing kool-aid on the part of most DVS manufacturers, and is not really compatible with the O.P.'s account.
Roberto Viccione 04.06.2009	If my understanding is correct, the insides of the card(s) are designed to read the specific timecode signal that comes off of the records.
Homer Chavarin 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by Chilly OMG there's something on the certified cards that allow traktor to read timecode without issues. Except there isn't, right? They're just good interfaces. If they did something to the input signal specific to TSP timecode, they'd be shite for regular audio recording. Right?
Homer Chavarin 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by BentoSan Timecode signals are very picky about your A->D converters in your soundcard so really there is no way to be sure that the performance that you are getting is an accurate represenation of how good the DVS actually is That is exactly the assertion about which I am most skeptical, because I haven't seen any real data to support it. It seems to me that: 1. Any timecode designed to be played from vinyl (subject to dust and whatnot) needs a certain amount of built-in error correction, and/or the software interpreting the timecode needs to apply some heuristic-based correction. 2. None of the timecodes I've ever listened to (though I've never listened to TSP's timecode) use any abrupt transients in the encoding scheme. And it doesn't sound to me like the data rate is super-high. It it were, I would expect a much higher bandwidth (lower lows, screechier highs ala modem traffic). So while I'm aware that not all A-D converters at a given resolution and sampling frequency are created equal, I believe it reasonable that the 24bit, 96kHz nature of an Audio8 should not in itself represent any advantage over a 16-bit 48kHz MOTU 828mk1. And since the MOTU is at least a decent-fidelity recorder at its supported resolutions...where's the problem?
nayit ruiz jaramillo 04.06.2009	I see Chilly point being quite valid. Certified Mixers have soundcards that meet certain specs and standards. That is the reason they are Certified. Also NI dont make Mixers which is why they allow some high end mixers to be certified. If NI allowed people to use any piece of crap soundcard with DVS (and lets face it that is what many people using this hack will do) then NI would be bombarded by people complaining that they bought this expensive DVS software but it sounds shit and the latency is terrible cus they are using some
Nick Ross 04.06.2009	OMG there's something on the certified cards that allow traktor to read timecode without issues. Dude, high level here. Don't pick nits.
Homer Chavarin 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by Chilly My point is that you should know what you're getting into before you get into it. BES is awesome because it manages phones with policies and such. But not just any phones, you must use specific ones specific phones. Traktor Scratch Pro is awesome because it's a DVS with Timecode. But you can't use just any soundcards, you must use specific ones. Follow me? I understand and agree with your underlying point, I just believe BES is a bad example. BES can only manage BlackBerry's because there is software on the BlackBerry that knows what to do with (and how to reply to) specific queries and control messages sent by BES.
nayit ruiz jaramillo 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by BentoSan Thing is there is really no way to test the timecode with these using a cheap crappy soundcard just to check out what its like. You dont get a full picture of how good the timecode actually is. Timecode signals are very picky about your A->D converters in your soundcard so really there is no way to be sure that the performance that you are getting is an accurate represenation of how good the DVS actually is unless your doing A / B comparisons to another computer setup with an NI authorised soundcard right next to it - in which case you would just test using the authorised soundcard because its right there. My point here is that i believe this is currently a dodgy method of testing the software, until there has been extensive performance reviews by someone who has access to the audio an 8 or 4 soundcard and a ton of other soundcards to do A / B comparison testing. Of course im not saying not to try this out with what you have Just be realistic about the results you get using the timecode in this fashion - its not guarenteed your going to get results like a Audio 4 or 8 will give you. Which is EXACTLY the reason i said earlier that it will taint your view of Traktor DVS. It will not show the potential of the software therefore you are cheating yourself out of fully experiencing a great DVS. Which ever way you slice it this will probably lead to a pretty naff experience.
Nick Ross 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by feralchimp Ms. Pinky is a notable counterexample. I don't mean to beat up on NI here, the fact that Torq is tied to Conectiv is equally lame. I don't really know anything about Serato's business, but if they require a Serato-branded interface the same criticisms apply. If ProTools requires specific audio i/o's, that's stupid too. A hardware dongle specifically used to prevent piracy is a whole other matter. PS3 software has a strict dependency on PS3 hardware because the hardware architecture is wacky. Are you aware of anyone without a BlackBerry who has any interest in running BES? Xbox360 is the closest case to NI, because they're fixing a spec for the sake of reliability. But the whole point of XBox360 is to standardize the hardware and operating system (and its implications for network play); a PC game software market already exists. The problem of getting timecode into a computer is a generic problem, with a wide variety of generic solutions available. And more than anything, I'm saying "I'm sure the internal mixer in TSP is way better than the one in Torq; I don't care so much about scratch-friendly latency; I wish they were cooler with my use case." My point is that you should know what you're getting into before you get into it. BES is awesome because it manages phones with policies and such. But not just any phones, you must use specific ones specific phones. Traktor Scratch Pro is awesome because it's a DVS with Timecode. But you can't use just any soundcards, you must use specific ones. Follow me?
Xavier Emanuels 04.06.2009	Thing is there is really no way to test the timecode with these using a cheap crappy soundcard just to check out what its like. You dont get a full picture of how good the timecode actually is. Timecode signals are very picky about your A->D converters in your soundcard so really there is no way to be sure that the performance that you are getting is an accurate represenation of how good the DVS actually is unless your doing A / B comparisons to another computer setup with an NI authorised soundcard right next to it - in which case you would just test using the authorised soundcard because its right there. My point here is that i believe this is currently a dodgy method of testing the software, until there has been extensive performance reviews by someone who has access to the audio an 8 or 4 soundcard and a ton of other soundcards to do A / B comparison testing. Of course im not saying not to try this out with what you have Just be realistic about the results you get using the timecode in this fashion - its not guarenteed your going to get results like a Audio 4 or 8 will give you.
Homer Chavarin 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by Karlos Santos Dude, dont sell it. Have 2 soundcards. I have. Ive got my Firebox that i use exclusively with my Controller Setup and my Audio 8 that i use for DVS. I'm married now, so the audio hardware expenditures need to be more, uh, strategic than they once were.
Homer Chavarin 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by Chilly Please see: Serato Torq Pro Tools BlackBerry + BES + BlackBerry Messenger Xbox 360 or PS 3 These systems require you use approved hardware with their software. Ms. Pinky is a notable counterexample. I don't mean to beat up on NI here, the fact that Torq is tied to Conectiv is equally lame. I don't really know anything about Serato's business, but if they require a Serato-branded interface the same criticisms apply. If ProTools requires specific audio i/o's, that's stupid too. A hardware dongle specifically used to prevent piracy is a whole other matter. PS3 software has a strict dependency on PS3 hardware because the hardware architecture is wacky. Are you aware of anyone without a BlackBerry who has any interest in running BES? Xbox360 is the closest case to NI, because they're fixing a spec for the sake of reliability. But the whole point of XBox360 is to standardize the hardware and operating system (and its implications for network play); a PC game software market already exists. The problem of getting timecode into a computer is a generic problem, with a wide variety of generic solutions available. And more than anything, I'm saying "I'm sure the internal mixer in TSP is way better than the one in Torq; I don't care so much about scratch-friendly latency; I wish they were cooler with my use case."
nayit ruiz jaramillo 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by feralchimp I Maybe I'm just cranky because I believe it'll be tough for me to sell my MOTU 828mkI these days. - Dude, dont sell it. Have 2 soundcards. I have. Ive got my Firebox that i use exclusively with my Controller Setup and my Audio 8 that i use for DVS.
Nick Ross 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by feralchimp I work in a software market where "maintenance and support" is something users pay annually for, on top of their initial licensing costs. And one of the requirements for receiving support, even when you're paying for it, is to use our products in the environments where we actually claim support for them. The flipside to that is that users are allowed to discontinue support. That generally only happens if a user stops using a product completely, but we don't tell them how to run their business either, and some users disco and continue using the product. In that case, they just can't open support tickets and expect help before they re-establish a support contract. Given all that, I (personally) would be a more satisfied NI customer if TSP would be purely agnostic toward my choice of audio interface. And even if that resulted in slightly more hiccups for some users, I believe that attitude would actually demonstrate more confidence (on NI's part) in the NI hardware interfaces. That is, if they really are better in a way that users will notice, that fact should bear itself out in the marketplace. People will hear "oh, I tried using TSP with my Conectiv or MOTU 828 mkI or whatever, and it just wasn't as reliable as when I tried in on my friend's pure-NI system." People starting hearing that, especially in a place like djranking s, and NI's audio interfaces (and TSP) see a sales bump. Your point about protecting the perceived stability of TSP (by force, if necessary) is totally valid though, and if put in NI's position (especially with good audio i/o hardware I was trying to sell) I would probably make the same business decision. Maybe I'm just cranky because I believe it'll be tough for me to sell my MOTU 828mkI these days. Cheers- Please see: Serato Torq Pro Tools BlackBerry + BES + BlackBerry Messenger Xbox 360 or PS 3 These systems require you use approved hardware with their software. I don't find your argument to be valid. If you didn't know what you were getting into before purchasing the software, that's on you. I don't know why you should be a more satisfied customer at that point. Should I tell Microsoft I'd be a more satisfied customer if I could play PS3 games on their system? Nope. I know that by purchasing an Xbox 360 what I have to do to operate it in a supported fashion. You want an agnostic audio interface? Use a non-time code DVS system.
Roberto Viccione 04.06.2009	But really, you've found a way to do exactly what you're asking. A way around their model. It isn't as stable, it isn't as reliable, and it isn't supported. And if you were to go to my house and play on my NI exclusive rig then you would have a completely different experience. shrug
Homer Chavarin 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by Karlos Santos Thats because its unsupported. Thats a bit of a none argument. I work in a software market where "maintenance and support" is something users pay annually for, on top of their initial licensing costs. And one of the requirements for receiving support, even when you're paying for it, is to use our products in the environments where we actually claim support for them. The flipside to that is that users are allowed to discontinue support. That generally only happens if a user stops using a product completely, but we don't tell them how to run their business either, and some users disco and continue using the product. In that case, they just can't open support tickets and expect help before they re-establish a support contract. Given all that, I (personally) would be a more satisfied NI customer if TSP would be purely agnostic toward my choice of audio interface. And even if that resulted in slightly more hiccups for some users, I believe that attitude would actually demonstrate more confidence (on NI's part) in the NI hardware interfaces. That is, if they really are better in a way that users will notice, that fact should bear itself out in the marketplace. People will hear "oh, I tried using TSP with my Conectiv or MOTU 828 mkI or whatever, and it just wasn't as reliable as when I tried in on my friend's pure-NI system." People starting hearing that, especially in a place like djranking s, and NI's audio interfaces (and TSP) see a sales bump. Your point about protecting the perceived stability of TSP (by force, if necessary) is totally valid though, and if put in NI's position (especially with good audio i/o hardware I was trying to sell) I would probably make the same business decision. Maybe I'm just cranky because I believe it'll be tough for me to sell my MOTU 828mkI these days. Cheers-
nayit ruiz jaramillo 04.06.2009	Originally Posted by feralchimp Also, with no legal way to test TSP on unsupported hardware, . Thats because its unsupported. Thats a bit of a none argument. You can fully test Traktor and ALL its features with the Demo. Adding the DVS functionality makes no difference to its stability. Traktor Pro is the exact same program as Traktor Scratch Pro. So if you buy TSP with the Audio 8 which' is 'proven' to be a great soundcard and you already know how to DJ with decks then theres no real need to test with unsupported hardware. Your more likely to get badly tainted view of how Traktor functions testing with unsupported hardware anyway , thus making the test pointless. You can always buy it from Guitar Center and return it within a certain amount of days cant you ?
Homer Chavarin 03.06.2009	Originally Posted by Karlos Santos Yeah i agree with Jack. Id also say that most bedroom DJs are aspiring to get club/bar work (not all , but most) . What happens on the day that you get the call "yeah man weve got a warm up slot going tomorrow be here at 10pm". And you rock up with some piece of crap hardware and c******d software. Do you risk a crash and looking like a complete amateur on your debut ? Shit can go wrong when its top class kit, at least when it does its not because you cut corners. Just a thought. You guys raise a solid point there, but maybe the day I get that call is the day I push my whip over to Guitar Center and buy an Audio8. Also, with no legal way to test TSP on unsupported hardware, we don't actually have reliability data...just NI's assertion that "we know the supported stuff works." I've gotta tell you, if I'm spinning a set and my Audio8 goes tits up for some reason, I'm going to care f-all about its "supported" status. I'm going to want to dig into my bag and use something else as a backup, even if the increased latency prevents me from using all the insane scratching skills I don't have.
nayit ruiz jaramillo 03.06.2009	Yeah i agree with Jack. Id also say that most bedroom DJs are aspiring to get club/bar work (not all , but most) . What happens on the day that you get the call "yeah man weve got a warm up slot going tomorrow be here at 10pm". And you rock up with some piece of crap hardware and c******d software. Do you risk a crash and looking like a complete amateur on your debut ? Shit can go wrong when its top class kit, at least when it does its not because you cut corners. Just a thought.
03.06.2009	I had no idea that people valued reliability so poorly, especially if they are more than bedroom djs.
Nick Ross 02.06.2009	Originally Posted by Jack Bastard You'd have to be stupid to run Scratch on a BCD3000. Buy the Audio 4, it's a nice card. LOL See what I was saying a few pages back?!
03.06.2009	Originally Posted by Rokas not a headache at all if doing correctly if i buy the bcd3000 i also get midi controller wchich is really nice by its capabilities and im gettin it for 130$ so i couldnt get any controller + soundcard (normal one) for that price.. You'd have to be stupid to run Scratch on a BCD3000. Buy the Audio 4, it's a nice card.
Nick Ross 02.06.2009	Buy an Audio8 or Audio4.
Camie Conrads 02.06.2009	not a headache at all if doing correctly if i buy the bcd3000 i also get midi controller wchich is really nice by its capabilities and im gettin it for 130$ so i couldnt get any controller + soundcard (normal one) for that price..
juan garcia 02.06.2009	i'd get a better soundcard and a seperate midi controller if you are looking to use DVS. can you find a connetiv box for cheap used maybe? to bring things back on topic, i believe it just sounds like a headache to try to use a bcd3000 and this ghetto timecode control solution as a DVS system. this is opinion of course.
Camie Conrads 02.06.2009	2 stereo inputs and 2 stereo outputs
02.06.2009	How many inputs do you have on the bcd3000? Because you'll need at least 2 stereo ins.
Camie Conrads 02.06.2009	so is it worth buying?

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Traktor Scratch Poor (a.k.a. Ghetto Timecode Control)