WHY do so many people here use and suggest the S2/S4??

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WHY do so many people here use and suggest the S2/S4??
Posted on: 07.08.2012 by Eloy Kiepke
I've been meaning to ask this for a while... This isn't a rant, I'm really wondering here.
Just about every time anyone makes one of those "which controller should I buy" posts, the majority of the responses are NI controllers, and I don't see why. For every NI controller, there are a great many controllers that will fit the same purpose, but much better.

On the hardware side, S2/S4 is are two of the worst all-in-one controllers I've ever used (I made the mistake of buying an S4.) The build quality of these is very slightly above that of a Mixtrack. The faders are all of a very low-quality. The "touch" system for the jogwheels is a joke.... They literally just made them a giant button, because good touch technology was apparently too expensive. The rubberized buttons are average at best, even if you ignore their sad travel distance. The plastic toggle buttons (including the VERY important deck-switching buttons) are absolutely god-awful, and often just don't connect, when you believe you've pressed them. The controllers themselves are entirely made out of cheap plastic. I really don't get why people believe of them as being high-end controllers, as they're actually very close to the bottom of the totem pole as far as quality goes.



Then there's the part which makes them inexcusable, and we should all be furious at NI for: The "software integration". This system is absolutely terrible for the consumer, and exists solely for the benefit of NI. They claim that this propriety system is superior, but it is VASTLY inferior to even simple 14-bit midi, as well as any open HID system. They claim that this system allows special functionality not available with midi, which is completely untrue. NI intentionally developed these "exclusive features" to work with the S2/S4 but not other controllers. I can't stress this enough:


Every single feature/advantage of the S2/S4 could have been done more easily and better with 14-bit midi, if NI hadn't wanted to market their proprietary system.


It would have taken less work to make these features available to other controllers, than it took to make them exclusive. Plus the cost of what came out of their intentional extra work to make these features exclusive, is a massive loss in versatility. Because of this proprietary system, you cannot remap the S2/S4 in any way (except for a couple of minor tweaks they give you, and a few very minor and specific "hacks" that we've figured out). NI included a crappy 7-bit midi system in the S2/S4 which you CAN map, but you lose all of the functionality they meant to be exclusive to the S2/S4. This means you cannot use the loop length displays, the "on air" and other indicators, and you lose all high-resolution controls like the pitchfaders and jogwheels.

People talk about how it gives them better "integration" which is complete unquantifiable silliness. They say that they want to just plug it in and go, they don't want to mess with mappings.... But almost every single other controller out there comes with a factory mapping for traktor which installs JUST as easily as the S2/S4... Actually in most cases, more easily, because of the constant S2/S4 driver bugs and total failures with each new version of traktor.

Yes, the S4 has a traktor-certified soundcard inside, which allows you to use timecode. That is the ONLY bonus I've ever been able to see... But so few people use it, and even the ones who do would be better (and more cheaply) served by just getting a traktor sound card and a couple of modular controllers.

So what does that leave for good qualities of the S2/S4...? The stock mapping being good? So you're willing to permit ALL of the other failures, because you like the mapping that the S2/S4 comes with (and is completely limited to)? Even if you're a total noob, or just hate mapping... You're willing to pay the extra money for inferior build-quality and function, because you don't want to hit "import mapping" from the CD that comes with most controllers? I'm really honestly wondering here... Now that I've explained the failures of the S2/S4... What is left that you believe makes the S2/S4 worth using, over superior controllers? All I can picture is ignorance to what is out there that is so much better than the S2/S4...
Geri Jarra
07.08.2012
Yea I feel you on the F1. I never had a problem with NI until they did that. I never really planned on getting one, but I was syncing ableton through traktor a lot at home and wanted an easy way to use loops and one shots at gigs, so it did interest me. Once I saw a clean one on the buy/sell I hopped on it. If im not satisfied, I could probably make most of my money back on resale. Im pretty sure Ill like it though
Germaine Bernadin
07.08.2012
If you are a newbie... you are not so gentile with the gear ....... learning can take its toll on the gear ... no matter what build.

I have in my long dj career gone through 2 pairs of Technics, one pair of Vestax.... and about 10 diff mixers.

Now I look after my equipmewnt and it is not taken out to raves in fields ... so its always looking like new.

I like NI stuff............ its just to big for me to take out and use in the clubs............
Sylvia Greener
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by Tommi Bass
Why do you all keep spending money on the latest new controller believeing it will suddenly make you shit hot......... did you change your Technics every six moths to change the colour?
True!

I believe comparing the S4 with the VCI 400 (EGE) and the Numark 4Trak in this thread is a bit unfair due to their release dates. But if you want to buy a controller today there will be some controllers offering more here or there than the S4. But as Tommi Bass said this doesn't mean you will automatically be better than all the S4 users out there.

As an owner of the S4 I must say: It's alright. The controller works perfectly, it's the right choice for me but I will respect anyone using some other gear that works better for them. I believe there's no use in bashing some people's opinion.

One final thing that really made me angry is that owners of the S4 do have to buy the F1 to really use the remix decks like anyone else out there. As an owner of the major NI DJ product I would definitely have expected to get at least a minor plus of features that users of non-NI hardware don't have. The S4 uses the same protocoll like the F1 so there is no excuse for NI! Very much disappointed... (btw: didn't buy - and don't plan to - the F1).
Erich Vallabhaneni
07.08.2012
I enjoy my S4 and Maschine. Yeah they are made of plastic, but do you not protect your gear and just throw it around when you're not using it? Everyone has their different perspective, and alot of people don't agree with one another. I enoy NI's products personally.
Lorri Bobar
07.08.2012
i don't understand how anyone could believe the ni stuff is low build quality. i got the masch, f1 and s4 and they are all very sturdy bits of gear, i expect they will continue to last a long time.

what are you doing to these things? if i took a hammer to an s4 i reckon i'd have a hard time getting it to break - i may not even be able to crack it open unless i had a chisel. maybe if i had a sledge hammer...

what is wrong with things made out of plastic? lots of things are made from plastic. like... cars, boats, furniture, most modern technology, jackie stallone's face. why are you all so racist towards plastic?
Matt Kane
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by Tommi Bass
Midi is dope...... if you use quality cable and VERY short runs. (I use gold plated connectors and special one direction flow cables at under 1mtr and the two foxes are connected using 30cm cable)

No problems; been using midi since the 80's, for synths, samples... oh the list goes one and on.

It was the shitty early squencers that where slow......... and caused all the problems...

My faderfox DJ2 and DJx are midi and are quick as fuck......... I use as back up if the club dj booth is too small to use my modded VCI 100 ........

Funny thing is I actually play out a lot in Berlin, the home of Ableton, Native Instruments and have never seen anyone use the S2 or S4.

Timecodes are used by about 80% of the digital djs ... others use .... Allen and Heath or Faderfox or VCI 100.

But I guess ........ Berlin is behind in the world club scene.

The question here is if you are shit... no matter what you use you will still be shit!

Mr Golden cannot map talent for you.

Why do you all keep spending money on the latest new controller believeing it will suddenly make you shit hot......... did you change your Technics every six moths to change the colour?

Nothing is perfect... the imperfections make muisc interesting.
+1!
been using my vci for a couple of years now. was believeing about buying the s2 but, i wouldn
Germaine Bernadin
07.08.2012
Midi is dope...... if you use quality cable and VERY short runs. (I use gold plated connectors and special one direction flow cables at under 1mtr and the two foxes are connected using 30cm cable)

No problems; been using midi since the 80's, for synths, samples... oh the list goes one and on.

It was the shitty early squencers that where slow......... and caused all the problems...

My faderfox DJ2 and DJx are midi and are quick as fuck......... I use as back up if the club dj booth is too small to use my modded VCI 100 ........

Funny thing is I actually play out a lot in Berlin, the home of Ableton, Native Instruments and have never seen anyone use the S2 or S4.

Timecodes are used by about 80% of the digital djs ... others use .... Allen and Heath or Faderfox or VCI 100.

But I guess ........ Berlin is behind in the world club scene.

The question here is if you are shit... no matter what you use you will still be shit!

Mr Golden cannot map talent for you.

Why do you all keep spending money on the latest new controller believeing it will suddenly make you shit hot......... did you change your Technics every six moths to change the colour?

Nothing is perfect... the imperfections make muisc interesting.
Random X
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
There are tons of great controllers out there dude... I would recommend just about ANY controller out there before the S2/S4 just on build-quality...
Build Quality, shmuild quality!

I've toured around with a Behringer BCR2000, which I packed loosely in my backpack in the same compartment as where I kept my Audio4DJ... It still has to fail on me yet!

And yeah, they said it was cheap, toylike and worst of all, it was `BEHRINGER'!

Same goes for the S4, yeah it's plastic, yeah it's NI, a company that is relatively new on the controller market.
Apart from the USB ninja hack, it's working ultra amazingly for me and still has to die on me yet.

The connector dying is a common thing on the S4/S2, which could:
a) be the result of a child decease of the controller design. (next gen could as well be equipped with another connector)
b) be the result of a user user/owner not being careful enough with his/her gear .

I had the privilege to test the Pioneer, and what I can tell you, is that it had a more feeble feel to it than the S4. Especially on the jogs.
The EQs and rotaries were not as convenient as those on the S4, placing of the cue/mix rotary is abominable.
Faders had almost the same feel as these of the S4. (Probably both ALPS)

So the Pioneers being better, is just your personal preference.

What I do admit, is that the Pioneer MIDIcontrollers attract/target different DJs. Where the S4/S2 is more of a high tech DJ, loving to loop, cue point juggle and more freaky stuff which may result in more abusive use of the controller, whereas the Pioneer controller DJs usually attract the traditional DJs who transfer to MIDI, but start of in their traditional way of mixing.
Celine Surico
08.08.2012
I've looked at other controllers, Twitch is interesting but the rest are me-too controllers with no personality and a requirement to spend hours programming them rather than DJ:ing them. As such S2/S4s work from the box and have 95% of the integration I require. I've taken S4s to gigs, works just fine.

Do I smell some kind of frustration about NI taking too much market share rather than an objective analysis?
Geri Jarra
08.08.2012
Retail right now

S4 $800
4Trak $1000
DDJ-T1 $900
VCI - 400 $1000

I don't know why were arguing about this.. anyone with google should have been able to figure that out. But again the software is included with the S4. But I was just trying to answer your original question
Geri Jarra
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
If $200 is going to make the decision of what your main kit is going to be.... DJing might not be for you.
seriously? $200 I can add an F1, which I did. Now I can use the remix decks and the whole setup is STILL cheaper than a VCI 400 with TP2.5

But yea I guess If I cant afford the best I should just quit
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Emery
yea yea ive seen them all. the behringers line wont be out for a few months anyway, plus the other ones you mentioned retail for at least $200 more than the S4 and doesn't include software. apples to apples my friend

What? no....
S4 is $800
4 track is $850
DDJ-T1 is $750
VCI-400 is $900


Also, if $200 is going to make the decision of what your main kit is going to be.... DJing might not be for you.
Breanne Penge
07.08.2012
Personally, I hate jog wheels, so the Twitch is my weapon of choice. I also prefer using Itch so I have a similar interface / library mgmt as my (serato) DVS setup.

All subjective though - you're really lucky if you get a chance to try them all out. That vci-400 does look really nice...
Romelia Stankard
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by Emery
So now that we know S4's aren't made (or priced) like Pioneer.. what do YOU recommend?
For what it's worth I don't believe the pioneer T1 is any better quality than the s4. 4-trak and vci-400 felt best. If you want better quality than that at some point you have to step away and just get a hardware mixer.
Geri Jarra
07.08.2012
yea yea ive seen them all. the behringers line wont be out for a few months anyway, plus the other ones you mentioned retail for at least $200 more than the S4 and doesn't include software. apples to apples my friend
Eloy Kiepke
07.08.2012
There are tons of great controllers out there dude... I would recommend just about ANY controller out there before the S2/S4 just on build-quality... That's not even mentioning the even worse part which is the "software integration".

As far as an all-in-one controller that is meant for the same things an S2/S4 is meant for... Vestax is amazing... so's the Pioneer DDJ-T1... And actually my current favorite all-in-one (after the vci-400) is actually a Numark, surprisingly... The 4-track is amazing.

Honestly though, the market is finally going to modular, which I love. Check out behringer's new CMD line... amazing. As soon as that shit comes out, I'm never touching an all-in-one again.

07.08.2012
Originally Posted by Emery
So now that we know S4's aren't made (or priced) like Pioneer.. what do YOU recommend?
Out of all the controllers I've used I like the VCI 400 best. Made to take a bashing and superconfigurable.

07.08.2012
Originally Posted by MelloState
Sir, HID is what they use which is more responsive than midi
Think your mouse for instance, it's HID, it moves when you move it.
Midi suffers from latency issues at times and more midi send/receive and it will be more apparent.
Eh? Given that hardware midi has been around for nearly 30 years and been used in live performance for the entire time I don't know where you're getting this information. AFAIK the latency of a hardware midi device is about 7ms.

Originally Posted by MelloState
Also the jogwheel switch is the same type of switch pio cdjs use.
Trust me it's not.

Originally Posted by MelloState
I do agree it's casing is a pretty junk plastic but its never meant to be an expensive controller
TP2=$200
Sound card=$120+
Controller=rest
Wow, just wow.

Geri Jarra
07.08.2012
So now that we know S4's aren't made (or priced) like Pioneer.. what do YOU recommend?
Eloy Kiepke
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by MelloState
Sir, HID is what they use which is more responsive than midi
Think your mouse for instance, it's HID, it moves when you move it.
Midi suffers from latency issues at times and more midi send/receive and it will be more apparent.
Also the jogwheel switch is the same type of switch pio cdjs use.
I do agree it's casing is a pretty junk plastic but its never meant to be an expensive controller
TP2=$200
Sound card=$120+
Controller=rest

An S2 at $500 breaks down to the actual controller only being worth $180 but you can also find them cheaper at some places for likr $400


Though losing HID when going with a custom mapping does kinda suck
Actually, midi is NOT inherently higher-latency than HID. Plus, even if that were true... the S2/S4 still manage to have pretty embarrassing latency.

The jogwheels are not the same system as the Pioneer jogs at all... It's quite a bit different, and VASTLY lower quality than the Pio stuff as well.

I do always forget about the price of the software... So that does add some value if you're planning on purchasing Traktor.... Fair. But that only makes the money you spend more worth it, it has nothing to do with the awful experience of using an S2/S4




Originally Posted by Xonetacular
I believe it really just comes down to NIs marketing department and how big of a market share the S4/S2 have (if Zedd and Porter Robinson use it it must be great..). And since everyone has them people just recommend what they already own since it's what they know or to validate their purchases. And for what they go for now and used they are a good value if you are ok with the build quality.

That's the only reason I've ever been able to come up with for them being popular: inertia... They were initially popular, because we hadn't figured out how awful they were yet.... and because of that, they've remained popular...


Originally Posted by BFLY
Totally agree with the OP. The only reason why I use NI hardware is because I like the software and want to use DVS. IMO there soundcards are a rip off as well.
Yeah but at least we can't be mad at them for their soundcards.... They been taking advantage of their bullshit proprietary system on their DVS since they began... Can't really blame them for "changing" on that one.
Lawana Spratlen
07.08.2012
Totally agree with the OP. The only reason why I use NI hardware is because I like the software and want to use DVS. IMO there soundcards are a rip off as well.
Geri Jarra
07.08.2012
is vci-400 > S4?
Romelia Stankard
07.08.2012
some valid points.

When the S4 first came out it was really cool and the level of integration and layout was unmatched by anything else then on the market. People were able to get over the build quality for the features, I briefly owned one and liked it but my time with all in one controllers was short lived as it just felt cheap. Having laid my hands on the vestax vci-400 and the higher end numark controllers they definitely blow the s4 away quality wise.

I believe it really just comes down to NIs marketing department and how big of a market share the S4/S2 have (if Zedd and Porter Robinson use it it must be great..). And since everyone has them people just recommend what they already own since it's what they know or to validate their purchases. And for what they go for now and used they are a good value if you are ok with the build quality.
Monique Swanier
07.08.2012
Sir, HID is what they use which is more responsive than midi
Think your mouse for instance, it's HID, it moves when you move it.
Midi suffers from latency issues at times and more midi send/receive and it will be more apparent.
Also the jogwheel switch is the same type of switch pio cdjs use.
I do agree it's casing is a pretty junk plastic but its never meant to be an expensive controller
TP2=$200
Sound card=$120+
Controller=rest

An S2 at $500 breaks down to the actual controller only being worth $180 but you can also find them cheaper at some places for likr $400


Though losing HID when going with a custom mapping does kinda suck
Random X
07.08.2012
NI must be doing something well enough, I guess.

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