WHY do so many people here use and suggest the S2/S4??

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WHY do so many people here use and suggest the S2/S4??
Posted on: 07.08.2012 by Eloy Kiepke
I've been meaning to ask this for a while... This isn't a rant, I'm really wondering here.
Just about every time anyone makes one of those "which controller should I buy" posts, the majority of the responses are NI controllers, and I don't see why. For every NI controller, there are a great many controllers that will fit the same purpose, but much better.

On the hardware side, S2/S4 is are two of the worst all-in-one controllers I've ever used (I made the mistake of buying an S4.) The build quality of these is very slightly above that of a Mixtrack. The faders are all of a very low-quality. The "touch" system for the jogwheels is a joke.... They literally just made them a giant button, because good touch technology was apparently too expensive. The rubberized buttons are average at best, even if you ignore their sad travel distance. The plastic toggle buttons (including the VERY important deck-switching buttons) are absolutely god-awful, and often just don't connect, when you believe you've pressed them. The controllers themselves are entirely made out of cheap plastic. I really don't get why people believe of them as being high-end controllers, as they're actually very close to the bottom of the totem pole as far as quality goes.



Then there's the part which makes them inexcusable, and we should all be furious at NI for: The "software integration". This system is absolutely terrible for the consumer, and exists solely for the benefit of NI. They claim that this propriety system is superior, but it is VASTLY inferior to even simple 14-bit midi, as well as any open HID system. They claim that this system allows special functionality not available with midi, which is completely untrue. NI intentionally developed these "exclusive features" to work with the S2/S4 but not other controllers. I can't stress this enough:


Every single feature/advantage of the S2/S4 could have been done more easily and better with 14-bit midi, if NI hadn't wanted to market their proprietary system.


It would have taken less work to make these features available to other controllers, than it took to make them exclusive. Plus the cost of what came out of their intentional extra work to make these features exclusive, is a massive loss in versatility. Because of this proprietary system, you cannot remap the S2/S4 in any way (except for a couple of minor tweaks they give you, and a few very minor and specific "hacks" that we've figured out). NI included a crappy 7-bit midi system in the S2/S4 which you CAN map, but you lose all of the functionality they meant to be exclusive to the S2/S4. This means you cannot use the loop length displays, the "on air" and other indicators, and you lose all high-resolution controls like the pitchfaders and jogwheels.

People talk about how it gives them better "integration" which is complete unquantifiable silliness. They say that they want to just plug it in and go, they don't want to mess with mappings.... But almost every single other controller out there comes with a factory mapping for traktor which installs JUST as easily as the S2/S4... Actually in most cases, more easily, because of the constant S2/S4 driver bugs and total failures with each new version of traktor.

Yes, the S4 has a traktor-certified soundcard inside, which allows you to use timecode. That is the ONLY bonus I've ever been able to see... But so few people use it, and even the ones who do would be better (and more cheaply) served by just getting a traktor sound card and a couple of modular controllers.

So what does that leave for good qualities of the S2/S4...? The stock mapping being good? So you're willing to permit ALL of the other failures, because you like the mapping that the S2/S4 comes with (and is completely limited to)? Even if you're a total noob, or just hate mapping... You're willing to pay the extra money for inferior build-quality and function, because you don't want to hit "import mapping" from the CD that comes with most controllers? I'm really honestly wondering here... Now that I've explained the failures of the S2/S4... What is left that you believe makes the S2/S4 worth using, over superior controllers? All I can picture is ignorance to what is out there that is so much better than the S2/S4...
Stephnie Godbole
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
Well, I would agree, except for my explaination of the fact that I'm not trusting the CMD line yet, and why I'm hopeful for it. It really does sound like it has a good chance of being higher quality than the S4/S2.




That sounds good in idea, but in practice it's the opposite. The software integration is awful, and fails quite often. Like how for the first six months, 90% of us pc users had sound card issues, or how every single traktor update breaks the S4 for like half of it's owners. You can MUCH more safely trust midi than traktor's HID protocol, and that's a fact with like 25 years of history backing it up.
Thats what updating your drivers are for
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Emery
If your point is that an S4 isn't a worthy piece of gear , I would doubt that anyone here could fully agree. But to be honest you lost me pages back and when your started talking about the CMD. You would be lucky if the CMD line is to par with NI controllers.

Although I respect your opinions they seem to be all over the place
Well, I would agree, except for my explaination of the fact that I'm not trusting the CMD line yet, and why I'm hopeful for it. It really does sound like it has a good chance of being higher quality than the S4/S2.


Originally Posted by ksandvik
Trust me, a tested tight integration is exactly that is needed for complex hardware/software solutions, something you need to trust 100% when you are up on-stage. Or then you should reserve 25% of your spare time QA:ing the ad hoc solutions. I let others do that for me as I'm more interested in DJ:ing.

That's another reason why a lot of DJs prefer Pio systems, as well.
That sounds good in idea, but in practice it's the opposite. The software integration is awful, and fails quite often. Like how for the first six months, 90% of us pc users had sound card issues, or how every single traktor update breaks the S4 for like half of it's owners. You can MUCH more safely trust midi than traktor's HID protocol, and that's a fact with like 25 years of history backing it up.
Geri Jarra
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
(Although i gotta point out... The people with the high post counts are more or less on my side here... and they tend to know their shit around here)
If your point is that an S4 isn't a worthy piece of gear , I would doubt that anyone here could fully agree. But to be honest you lost me pages back and when your started talking about the CMD. You would be lucky if the CMD line is to par with NI controllers.

Although I respect your opinions they seem to be all over the place
Celine Surico
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
Back before touch jogs and shift functions, in the long-long-ago? I never used it... How was the build quality?




But like I said, I believe in the original post, You can just as easily install the stock traktor mapping for any other controller... The "tight integration" is ABSOLUTELY a bad thing.
Trust me, a tested tight integration is exactly that is needed for complex hardware/software solutions, something you need to trust 100% when you are up on-stage. Or then you should reserve 25% of your spare time QA:ing the ad hoc solutions. I let others do that for me as I'm more interested in DJ:ing.

That's another reason why a lot of DJs prefer Pio systems, as well.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Jester.NZ
Probably the most badass controller i can believe of way back was the bcd3000. Waddya know, that one is a behringer
Back before touch jogs and shift functions, in the long-long-ago? I never used it... How was the build quality?


Originally Posted by ksandvik
I believe the difference with most other controllers then (and maybe even today) is the tight integration between Traktor and S2/S4. You get so much mapped for free or available so you don't need to spend endless evening s customizing the controller or controllers.

Some like doing that. And that's fine. I'm a SW engineer so I prefer to make music or mixes in the evenings instead of sitting down and programming.
But like I said, I believe in the original post, You can just as easily install the stock traktor mapping for any other controller... The "tight integration" is ABSOLUTELY a bad thing.
Celine Surico
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
Me too! But couldn't we same about most other controllers?
I believe the difference with most other controllers then (and maybe even today) is the tight integration between Traktor and S2/S4. You get so much mapped for free or available so you don't need to spend endless evening s customizing the controller or controllers.

Some like doing that. And that's fine. I'm a SW engineer so I prefer to make music or mixes in the evenings instead of sitting down and programming.

...I still remember the early day Traktor versions that crashed every 30 minutes.. Those days are thankfully over and I could stop sending lots of bug reports to NI (with only a few a month now.) The S4 integration is even more helpful as it's a completely tested package. So that's why I recommend them as it's a nice package, integrated, tested, ready to roll. With tons of flexibility as well.
Latoria Kavulich
08.08.2012
Probably the most badass controller i can believe of way back was the bcd3000. Waddya know, that one is a behringer
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Jester.NZ
If a controller such as the s4 was around in 2006, i would have been in heaven.
Me too! But couldn't we same about most other controllers?
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by oliosky
Why don't you cry more Princess. If you start throwing around your opinions like they are fact you need to have a thicker skin.
swung at stuff like that, I assume?

I'm not even going to bother replying to that
Latoria Kavulich
08.08.2012
If a controller such as the s4 was around in 2006, i would have been in heaven.
Latoria Kavulich
08.08.2012
Didn't see that one. Both of you keep it civil k, or hammers will be swung.
Johnetta Olewine
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
Wait, what? MINE? I didn't insult him at all... All I did was tell him to kindly fuck off if he didn't have anything useful to add that was on-topic. I didn't insult him, HE'S the one who insulted ME... Said i was "inexperienced and talking out of my ass"... Which is just as much profanity as I used, if that's your qualm.
Why don't you cry more Princess. If you start throwing around your opinions like they are fact you need to have a thicker skin.
Celine Surico
08.08.2012
Could we get back to why S2/S4 is overpriced or best thing since sliced bread, thanks?
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Wait, what? MINE? I didn't insult him at all... All I did was tell him to kindly fuck off if he didn't have anything useful to add that was on-topic. I didn't insult him, HE'S the one who insulted ME... Said i was "inexperienced and talking out of my ass"... Which is just as much profanity as I used, if that's your qualm.
Latoria Kavulich
08.08.2012
Deleted Saurus' last post. You're lucky not to get a 10 day holiday, insulting other members is against the rules.
Johnetta Olewine
08.08.2012
I read your explanation of your "new rig" tiger. My comment still stands.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Jester.NZ
Guys, lets keep this one on track. S2/S4 discussion
errr....Oh... Fair.
Also thank you.... I really do want to hear people's legitimate counterpoints to what I dropped.

(Although i gotta point out... The people with the high post counts are more or less on my side here... and they tend to know their shit around here)
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Mil0 summed up my thoughts about the CMD line pretty well... Shishdisma, you still don't know shit.

Nem0nic is a very frequent user on these community s, and he is the main creator of the CMD series. He's been saying all along that he was going to focus on putting the build quality miles beyond Behringer's usual. When NAMM happened, every review of them was consistent with that, so even if you don't put any faith in Nemonic as a fellow DJTT user, there's also every single person who touched them at NAMM to consider. I'm still not entirely sold yet, which is why I added the disclaimer that I'm still going to test them out before buying them, but like Mil0 said, I'm hopeful.

Maybe they are too good to be true.... The best-designed controllers on the market, for $100-$150, AND they have high build quaity? I can see why you'd be skeptical... but cheap modular controllers do have a history of surprising us... Look at the Akai mini series and the korg micro series: Both are INCREDIBLY cheap, but the build quality of either really isn't all that bad. I can see how this is more of a stretch... But the information is pointing to a miracle here.


Originally Posted by oliosky
I have a feeling the OP is somewhat inexperienced and talking through his ass.
Really... Did you read my explanation of my new rig? I know what I'm talking about, champ. This is a new account, (password PHAIL ) I've been here for years.
Latoria Kavulich
08.08.2012
Guys, lets keep this one on track. S2/S4 discussion
Celine Surico
08.08.2012
Anyway, it was indeed funny to complain about NI S4 and then bring an unproven Behringer controller to the thread as the better alternative. If it would have been Pio gear, or A&H I would have understood the point.
Johnetta Olewine
08.08.2012
To be fair, I've had a pair of Behringer Truthg monitors and a BCR2000 for years and they have never skipped a beat (lol... beat).
Celine Surico
08.08.2012
Well, the OP will learn from Behringer gear a lot about reliability... Actually I have a couple of cheap Behringer things like a small mixer that I keep in my rehearsal studio for the keyboards but I doubt I would take that one on-stage...
Johnetta Olewine
08.08.2012
I have a feeling the OP is somewhat inexperienced and talking through his ass.
Monique Swanier
08.08.2012
dont knock berhinger
I had a DDM4000 for a few days till I got annoyed that the pots didnt sit right, had some bad feedback in the audio and had plastic knobs that felt like jello
Nancey Inderlied
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by MiL0
it's interesting that you're talking about build quality and Behringer in the same thread!

I agree with almost everything you've said thus far, but let's not forget that the only CMD units seen in the wild have been hand built prototypes so any 'reviews' should be taken with a pinch of salt... Behringer have a LOT of work to do if they're gonna try and fix their reputation in this regard.

That said, I'm strangely optimistic that they're gonna be excellent controllers... lol... we'll have to wait and see though.
Yeahh, I was kind of wondering how this thread went to a nerdrage rant about how bad S4s are, to "hey look at the pile of Behringer's newest cheap MIDI crap I'm buying."

If you're actually angry about the build quality of the S4 (u seem vry mad bro), you're going to be enraged when your setup consists entirely of a pile of customer-beta Behringer gear .
Arcelia Siebeneck
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
two Midi Fighter 3D's, a Behringer CMD MM-1, and a NI sound card. An Audio 10, so I can mix externally when the event has a four channel mixer, and so I can use turntables if I feel like bringing them.

Also a CMD PL-1 for times that I need tempo control when I don't have CDJs or Vinyl to play on. They'll apparently have some of the only high-res pitch faders and jogwheels that Traktor supports, because they're 14-bit midi.
Also, even when I do have timecode set up, I'll probably use the PL-1 for effects, because eight led ring, PUSH BUTTON encoders is just too good to pass up, even though they might not be necessary.

Whole set up will cost $1000, as I'm buying the Audio 10 used. Plus I'll probably get more than half of that for my S4 when the time comes.


EDIT: Obviously, this is all dependent on trying out the MM-1 and PL-1 for build quality when they come out, but they have incredible reviews thus far.
it's interesting that you're talking about build quality and Behringer in the same thread!

I agree with almost everything you've said thus far, but let's not forget that the only CMD units seen in the wild have been hand built prototypes so any 'reviews' should be taken with a pinch of salt... Behringer have a LOT of work to do if they're gonna try and fix their reputation in this regard.

That said, I'm strangely optimistic that they're gonna be excellent controllers... lol... we'll have to wait and see though.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Otacon
word, more power to ya man! If the places i played had 2000's and such Id deff go the same route. Im trying to go modular so I can adust to diffrent gigs and situations myself.
Well timecode CDs work too, I'd suggest looking into that route. That's gonna be my backup plan for if they have older CDJs.

Modular is the way to go for soooooo many reasons. The more of the club's normal gear you can use, the happier everyone seems to be, and the more you seem to get booked. That is why ultimate flexibility, while maintaining my workflow, is my ultimate goal. Also, it's just more fun to play on high-quality mixers and CDJS/TT's than it is to play on cheap controllers, as long as you can keep your workflow intact.
Erich Vallabhaneni
08.08.2012
word, more power to ya man! If the places i played had 2000's and such Id deff go the same route. Im trying to go modular so I can adust to diffrent gigs and situations myself.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Otacon
great setup. Too many different controllers involved for my liking but looks like fun. But $1000? how much are you getting those techs for?

Yeahhh, I don't like that part either. It'll be VERY rare that I have to set up that many. 90% of the time events I play have either CDJ1000's or 2000's and a 4 channel mixer, so it will usually just be like this: (lol i finally have an excuse to post these mock ups)

set up.jpg

With the PL-1 thrown in if I end up needing it, depending on how i map the 3D's,


Also hahaha, those techs are just meant as an example of what the event would have, they're not included in the $1000.
I do have a pair of 1200 MK2's that I got for $400, but I have roughly zero interest in bringing them to events, so they're jsut part of my home set up.


in the $1000 is:

2 MF3D's $500
CMD MM1 $150
CMD PL1 $150
Audio 10 DJ $250


I believe $1000 is incredible, considering I honestly cannot believe of any gear I'd rather have, given any amount of money.

...Except for maybe having a DJM900 nexus as my backup for if the club doesn't have a 4 channel, instead of the MM-1. But swapping out mixers in an event environment is a pain anyways, so I dunno if it'd even be worth the hassle...
Erich Vallabhaneni
08.08.2012
great setup. Too many different controllers involved for my liking but looks like fun. But $1000? how much are you getting those techs for?
Erica Charvet
08.08.2012
I'm very interested in the Behringer units as well! Keep us posted when you get your setup.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
I've actually got got my new set up mocked-up.
here: jVAL9.jpg

Set up will be easier than an S4, thankfully, because the gear is modular, and is actually smaller than an S4 in total size (excluding the PL-1, which would really just be tossed wherever there was space, as I wouldn't need it much if I had TTs/ CDJs set up like in the picture.

two Midi Fighter 3D's, a Behringer CMD MM-1, and a NI sound card. An Audio 10, so I can mix externally when the event has a four channel mixer, and so I can use turntables if I feel like bringing them.

Also a CMD PL-1 for times that I need tempo control when I don't have CDJs or Vinyl to play on. They'll apparently have some of the only high-res pitch faders and jogwheels that Traktor supports, because they're 14-bit midi.
Also, even when I do have timecode set up, I'll probably use the PL-1 for effects, because eight led ring, PUSH BUTTON encoders is just too good to pass up, even though they might not be necessary.

Whole set up will cost $1000, as I'm buying the Audio 10 used. Plus I'll probably get more than half of that for my S4 when the time comes.


EDIT: Obviously, this is all dependent on trying out the MM-1 and PL-1 for build quality when they come out, but they have incredible reviews thus far.
Erich Vallabhaneni
08.08.2012
well what are you gonna sell it and get now?
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
yeah. I said it.
Erich Vallabhaneni
08.08.2012
^ haha
Erica Charvet
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
So far the ONLY reason I can see for buying an s4 would if you meet ALL THREE of these critera:

1. you absolutely need a mixer AND deck controls AND timecode control,
2. you don't own an NI sound card
3. you can afford exactly $800 right now, and absolutely cannot wait until you can afford slightly more so you can get an audio 6 and a better controller.


If you don't meet ALL THREE of those, I have no idea why you wouldn't just buy a better controller, or a better controller and a Audio 6 DJ.
The controllers you were referring to cost $1000... + the NI A6 brings the total to about $1230. That's more than 50% more than just purchasing the S4 on its own. Not really "just a little more" in most people's eyes. Hence why it's such a good value.

And in my opinion, the 4Track or VCI-400 is not really a "better controller" by any means. You may prefer them, and yes they feel sturdier, but the S4 is not unreliable or flimsy by any means.
Brenna Welbes
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Era 7
this thread:

LM mutha effin' AO!

I was seriously JUST about to post:

*grabs his popcorn*

Tesha Freudenstein
08.08.2012
this thread:

Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by sss18734
The fact of the matter is that it's a reasonably priced piece of kit thats all-inclusive, reliable, versatile, and a great tool for beginners and even professionals. If it doesn't fit your workflow or you're upset that it doesn't feel like an Allen & Heath 4D, don't buy it! But something that doesn't fit your requirements may (and does) fit many others'.

I have one. And it does fit my workflow, that's why I bought it... it just does so very badly. You're missing my point here (because you didn't read the thread before posting) I'm pointing out why almost everyone would be better-served with a better controller. it has nothing to do with me.

So far the ONLY reason I can see for buying an s4 would if you meet ALL THREE of these critera:

1. you absolutely need a mixer AND deck controls AND timecode control,
2. you don't own an NI sound card
3. you can afford exactly $800 right now, and absolutely cannot wait until you can afford slightly more so you can get an audio 6 and a better controller.


If you don't meet ALL THREE of those, I have no idea why you wouldn't just buy a better controller, or a better controller and a Audio 6 DJ.

Once behringer's CMD line comes out, even if you meet those three criteria, you'd be better served with their gear and an Audio 6DJ than the S4. (Assuming the build quality is as good as everyone who went to NAMM says it is.)
Erich Vallabhaneni
08.08.2012
yeah me either, its funny that its colored similar to a 4 Track

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