WHY do so many people here use and suggest the S2/S4??

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WHY do so many people here use and suggest the S2/S4??
Posted on: 07.08.2012 by Eloy Kiepke
I've been meaning to ask this for a while... This isn't a rant, I'm really wondering here.
Just about every time anyone makes one of those "which controller should I buy" posts, the majority of the responses are NI controllers, and I don't see why. For every NI controller, there are a great many controllers that will fit the same purpose, but much better.

On the hardware side, S2/S4 is are two of the worst all-in-one controllers I've ever used (I made the mistake of buying an S4.) The build quality of these is very slightly above that of a Mixtrack. The faders are all of a very low-quality. The "touch" system for the jogwheels is a joke.... They literally just made them a giant button, because good touch technology was apparently too expensive. The rubberized buttons are average at best, even if you ignore their sad travel distance. The plastic toggle buttons (including the VERY important deck-switching buttons) are absolutely god-awful, and often just don't connect, when you believe you've pressed them. The controllers themselves are entirely made out of cheap plastic. I really don't get why people believe of them as being high-end controllers, as they're actually very close to the bottom of the totem pole as far as quality goes.



Then there's the part which makes them inexcusable, and we should all be furious at NI for: The "software integration". This system is absolutely terrible for the consumer, and exists solely for the benefit of NI. They claim that this propriety system is superior, but it is VASTLY inferior to even simple 14-bit midi, as well as any open HID system. They claim that this system allows special functionality not available with midi, which is completely untrue. NI intentionally developed these "exclusive features" to work with the S2/S4 but not other controllers. I can't stress this enough:


Every single feature/advantage of the S2/S4 could have been done more easily and better with 14-bit midi, if NI hadn't wanted to market their proprietary system.


It would have taken less work to make these features available to other controllers, than it took to make them exclusive. Plus the cost of what came out of their intentional extra work to make these features exclusive, is a massive loss in versatility. Because of this proprietary system, you cannot remap the S2/S4 in any way (except for a couple of minor tweaks they give you, and a few very minor and specific "hacks" that we've figured out). NI included a crappy 7-bit midi system in the S2/S4 which you CAN map, but you lose all of the functionality they meant to be exclusive to the S2/S4. This means you cannot use the loop length displays, the "on air" and other indicators, and you lose all high-resolution controls like the pitchfaders and jogwheels.

People talk about how it gives them better "integration" which is complete unquantifiable silliness. They say that they want to just plug it in and go, they don't want to mess with mappings.... But almost every single other controller out there comes with a factory mapping for traktor which installs JUST as easily as the S2/S4... Actually in most cases, more easily, because of the constant S2/S4 driver bugs and total failures with each new version of traktor.

Yes, the S4 has a traktor-certified soundcard inside, which allows you to use timecode. That is the ONLY bonus I've ever been able to see... But so few people use it, and even the ones who do would be better (and more cheaply) served by just getting a traktor sound card and a couple of modular controllers.

So what does that leave for good qualities of the S2/S4...? The stock mapping being good? So you're willing to permit ALL of the other failures, because you like the mapping that the S2/S4 comes with (and is completely limited to)? Even if you're a total noob, or just hate mapping... You're willing to pay the extra money for inferior build-quality and function, because you don't want to hit "import mapping" from the CD that comes with most controllers? I'm really honestly wondering here... Now that I've explained the failures of the S2/S4... What is left that you believe makes the S2/S4 worth using, over superior controllers? All I can picture is ignorance to what is out there that is so much better than the S2/S4...
Sylvia Greener
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Otacon
Not really on topic, but traktor is having a giveaway for this on their twitter and it gave me a laugh
I can imagine. I wouldn't like to take this instead of my standard black version.
Erich Vallabhaneni
08.08.2012		Not really on topic, but traktor is having a giveaway for this on their twitter and it gave me a laugh

Erica Charvet
08.08.2012		Seems to me the price of the S4 is solid and very reasonable after the sound card and software is thrown in... I'm not sure why you are having so much trouble pressing the buttons and using the jog wheels... The controller isn't necessarily touted as the end-all be-all of turntablists and controllerists - that's what turntables and controllers like the MIDI-Fighter are for.

While I would rather they have used buttons like you see in the x1, i've never had trouble pressing them like you seem to. The jog wheels function very well and are quite precise - And while the jogs are small, I didn't buy the controller to scratch with it. And while I do agree on the build quality - I'd rather it feel more substantial - it's been proven to be very durable, as has NI's x1, which is of the same build quality and touted by many touring professionals around the world - despite it being a piece of cheap plastic.

The fact of the matter is that it's a reasonably priced piece of kit thats all-inclusive, reliable, versatile, and a great tool for beginners and even professionals. If it doesn't fit your workflow or you're upset that it doesn't feel like an Allen & Heath 4D, don't buy it! But something that doesn't fit your requirements may (and does) fit many others'.
Erich Vallabhaneni
08.08.2012		Im guessing you wont be purchasing the S4 anytime soon right OP?
Celine Surico
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus

Also the VCI-400 is $800, and that includes software too, and that IS billed as high-end gear, and it easily lives up to that.
NI could have made the S4 high-quality and sold if for even less. They didn't, because their business model is to use the fact that they can give exclusive features to their controllers and overprice them based on this, and THEN put shitty components in them to make extra money.
Well, I would not hire you as the COO for a DJ HW company -- that's for sure :-). The cost of returns would be deadly for such ideas to float around...
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Otacon
this has just turned into a pissing match between people who hate NI's gear and people who enjoy it. @Saurus, i have in fact played around with a 4 Track bro and wasn't too impressed. Like I said, people have different opinions. And as you believe mine is bad, I believe yours is too. No one here is going to say some miraculous statement that makes someone say "Well damn, good point. Im going to switch gear right now." So I "call bullshit" on this entire thread.
No no, it's not opinion I'm talking about, it's information. I'm suggesting that you are lacking information that would make you understand why we're right. That information, if we're talking about build quality, is exposure to other gear that you could compare the S4 to, and a knowledge of how these things are constructed.


Originally Posted by Emery
My macbook pro was 2 grand and I baby it way more than I did my old dell....
(although my dell wasn't "high end" I believe you get the point)

But are you saying that the S4 is billed as high end gear? I believe anything less than $1000 (and again this includes the software) is not billed as high end gear, Its mid range and perfect for a DJ on the go. Also due to is "CHEAP" build I dont break my back carrying it to and from gig's.

Also I have never had any problems with my unit, but then again Im trying to imagine how hard you beat on your gear to come to these conclusions.
How many times have we explained in this thread that build quality is not just about how hard you have to beat on it to break it? It feels like a toy, when you compare it to good controllers.

Also the VCI-400 is $800, and that includes software too, and that IS billed as high-end gear, and it easily lives up to that.
NI could have made the S4 high-quality and sold if for even less. They didn't, because their business model is to use the fact that they can give exclusive features to their controllers and overprice them based on this, and THEN put shitty components in them to make extra money.
Celine Surico
09.08.2012
Originally Posted by liam1895
You've pretty much summed up why I went for the Twitch.

I had a play with the S4 in store and not only did its $900 AUD price tag turn me away from it but the Twitch did everything the S4 did and better in my opinion. Soundcard on the Twitch isnt great but what do you expect for $400? It's one of the best controllers on the market if you ask me.

In saying this the S4 aint no junk haha...
Yes, I would go with either Twitch or S4 just now. Those are the two best designed controllers out there. The rest are me-too. I'm not that worry about durability to the point that if something is done properly and is not a tank, that's good enough for me.
Chasidy Heckenbach
09.08.2012		their gear must be pretty good with so many people really liking it. personally i don't intend every buying an s2/s4 but i do want to buy a maschine sometime, even an S1 for the nice rgb lights... (not for it's remix deck capabilities as i don't use traktor any more)

this community is quite biased towards traktor so it's also going to be fairly biased towards the NI controllers... they're certainly some of the better controllers around. not sure i'd call them "high end" kit, but certainly decent middle priced controllers.
Erich Vallabhaneni
09.08.2012		this has just turned into a pissing match between people who hate NI's gear and people who enjoy it. @Saurus, i have in fact played around with a 4 Track bro and wasn't too impressed. Like I said, people have different opinions. And as you believe mine is bad, I believe yours is too. No one here is going to say some miraculous statement that makes someone say "Well damn, good point. Im going to switch gear right now." So I "call bullshit" on this entire thread.
Geri Jarra
09.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
No... I'm saying you should be careful, but if something is billed as high-end gear, you shouldn't have to be MORE careful with it than you would ACTUAL high-end gear.
My macbook pro was 2 grand and I baby it way more than I did my old dell....
(although my dell wasn't "high end" I believe you get the point)

But are you saying that the S4 is billed as high end gear? I believe anything less than $1000 (and again this includes the software) is not billed as high end gear, Its mid range and perfect for a DJ on the go. Also due to is "CHEAP" build I dont break my back carrying it to and from gig's.

Also I have never had any problems with my unit, but then again Im trying to imagine how hard you beat on your gear to come to these conclusions.
Chasidy Heckenbach
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
Lol okay guys, he get's the picture... He's wrong about HID vs midi. Poor guy made a simple mistake and we all jumped on him haha,
true... i just get a little narky each time someone makes a totally unfounded statement about hid verses midi. especially as it seems to be what most people seem to believe. so nothing against him in particular.

Originally Posted by synthet1c
If you want to use a controller to scratch with in traktor you have to use an S2/4... That is the way traktor was designed, It is unlikely that it would be optimised for any other controller without large kickbacks to NI... As always VDJ is better suited to controllerism anyway and you can use any controller in full resolution, even NHL protocol if you can figure it out...
this is true... for some reason that i can't fathom traktor does seem to work better in hid mode when it comes to jogs from what people say. ofc it's in their interest to keep it that way they just have more interest in optimizing and giving priority to their hid decode over midi. these days they do seem to want to sell a hardware+software package as opposed to just software that can work equally well with any controller.

if someone really wanted to map a hid device - and their are some reasons to do it, like waveforms on a cdj - then vdj or mixxx are the way to go...
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by RockingClub
I feel there's something wrong with the person standing behind your gear...

"Shitty buttons not pressing like they should"?! Never heard such a piece of s***!
Bullshit. Buttons should fucking press when you push them down. Those shitty recessed buttons don't work half the time. Are you really going to call out my skill on hitting a button...? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I can press the Deck Switch button just fine. I shouldn't have to adopt some new *button pressing technique* to press the shitty buttons.

Originally Posted by tekki
"Be careful crap"?

Sure, it just goes to show the way of appreciating/respecting your gear.

If you cannot respect/appreciate your 900 dollars/euros worth gear(S4), that you'd rather keep on abusing it in stead of just handling it, then this will result in breaking down on you.
You will probably keep on encountering gear being wrecked.

Trust me if I say that switches and rotaries won't turn/switch any better when you flick them at full strength in stead of using appropriate strength.
No... I'm saying you should be careful, but if something is billed as high-end gear, you shouldn't have to be MORE careful with it than you would ACTUAL high-end gear.

Originally Posted by Otacon
This. You shouldn't have to abuse any of your gear IMO, the only thing that build quality should have to defend from is accidents happening at gigs and such, and if you spend alot of money on gear it should be protected in cases. No matter how hard you bash NI, they will keep making money off people who enjoy their products. And really, implying Numark making a better controller just because of the metal case? Lamest thing i've ever heard.
No, build quality should feel good while you're using it. Nobody in the world can make a legitimate claim that the faders feel anywhere near as good as a good mixer's, the rubber buttons have as short a travel as they should, the jogwheel touch system isn't a complete joke, etc.

And I call bullshit, you've never touched a 4 track. It's got nothing to do with the case. I'm as surprised as you'd be if you played with one. The build quality isn't bad, especially for Numark. And I never said it was great, I just said it was better than the S4. I Just like it because it's got a design that would fit my workflow pretty well if I wasn't getting away from all-in-ones asap.

Honestly, there aren't any all-in-ones that I know of that I'd say the build quality of is even close to that of high-end mixers, except for a couple of Vestax's badasses, and maybe some of the smaller, specialty companies like faderfox and Livid etc.
Arline Receveur
08.08.2012		You've pretty much summed up why I went for the Twitch.

I had a play with the S4 in store and not only did its $900 AUD price tag turn me away from it but the Twitch did everything the S4 did and better in my opinion. Soundcard on the Twitch isnt great but what do you expect for $400? It's one of the best controllers on the market if you ask me.

In saying this the S4 aint no junk haha...
Romelia Stankard
08.08.2012		When people talk about build quality they are not just talking about durability and how long it will last or if it will break. It's about the quality of construction and how it feels to operate during regular use- how it feels to rest your hand on the surface or what it feels like to turn a knob or fader and if it feels wobbly and cheap or like a solid machine.

08.08.2012		Regardless of how hard you treat your controller I don't believe anyone could deny that the Vestax controllers are a lot better built than the S2/S4. Can't speak for the Numarks because I haven't seen them, but the 100/300/400/600 are built like proverbial tanks compared to the NI kit.
Erich Vallabhaneni
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by tekki

Sure, it just goes to show the way of appreciating/respecting your gear.

If you cannot respect/appreciate your 900 dollars/euros worth gear(S4), that you'd rather keep on abusing it in stead of just handling it, then this will result in breaking down on you.
You will probably keep on encountering gear being wrecked.

Trust me if I say that switches and rotaries won't turn/switch any better when you flick them at full strength in stead of using appropriate strength.
This. You shouldn't have to abuse any of your gear IMO, the only thing that build quality should have to defend from is accidents happening at gigs and such, and if you spend alot of money on gear it should be protected in cases. No matter how hard you bash NI, they will keep making money off people who enjoy their products. And really, implying Numark making a better controller just because of the metal case? Lamest thing i've ever heard.

08.08.2012		My S4 owning mate is the only person I know to have had to send his back for repair twice due to faults, which could just be bad luck but could also be worth bearing in mind.

Note that he didn't damage it either time and NI didn't quibble with the repair.
Sylvia Greener
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
[...]

Also, several people are talking on both sides about build quality. It's not just how long it lasts, it's also how it feels while you use it. My S4's broken SEVERAL times in SEVERAL different ways because of the terrible build quality.... but just as importantly, it's also felt like a stupid little toy the entire time. It's also caused me tons of "fuck ups" when mixing, because of the shitty buttons not pressing like they should, the fader caps flying off mid-throw, and the "touch" system for the jogwheels being a complete joke.

[...]
I feel there's something wrong with the person standing behind your gear...

"Shitty buttons not pressing like they should"?! Never heard such a piece of s***!
Brenna Welbes
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by DJKyleHughes
mind if I sig this?
Agreed. The only time during this thread I just had to effin' bust up laughing..

Random X
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
[..]

Also, several people are talking on both sides about build quality. It's not just how long it lasts, it's also how it feels while you use it. My S4's broken SEVERAL times in SEVERAL different ways because of the terrible build quality.... but just as importantly, it's also felt like a stupid little toy the entire time. It's also caused me tons of "f--- ups" when mixing, because of the shitty buttons not pressing like they should, the fader caps flying off mid-throw, and the "touch" system for the jogwheels being a complete joke.
[..]
Just because of the furious way your trying to make your point, I would be more keen on trying the S4, than to stay away from it.
If a controller/mixer or any kind of player causes you to make misstakes more often, you should change the way you're handling your music and players, or go for another controller or player.

"Be careful crap"?

Sure, it just goes to show the way of appreciating/respecting your gear.

If you cannot respect/appreciate your 900 dollars/euros worth gear(S4), that you'd rather keep on abusing it in stead of just handling it, then this will result in breaking down on you.
You will probably keep on encountering gear being wrecked.

Trust me if I say that switches and rotaries won't turn/switch any better when you flick them at full strength in stead of using appropriate strength.
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
08.08.2012		If you want to use a controller to scratch with in traktor you have to use an S2/4... That is the way traktor was designed, It is unlikely that it would be optimised for any other controller without large kickbacks to NI... As always VDJ is better suited to controllerism anyway and you can use any controller in full resolution, even NHL protocol if you can figure it out...
Nancey Inderlied
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
I.... What.... Sir, I rarely say this.... But you seem to just have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever.

First off. I'm new-school-as-fuck, not some "old-hat". The S4 was my second DJ controller ever. I know all of what I know about gear through playing around with other artists' gear.

Next, your rant about build quality is... I'm blown away. I find it hard to believe that you've ever touched an S4, and I'm not sure you know much about DJ gear at all. "smooth, short body faders"? You have a DJM-2000, and you believe the S4 faders are smooth??? I'm calling shenanigans here, sir. Either you don't own a DJM-2000, or you've never used an S4. Further, "short-bodied"? Are you claiming that the pitch faders being short is a good thing? Now I'm questioning if you're even a DJ.

Apparently you've never touched a DJM-2000, the faders aren't that incredible, and aren't anything above Pioneer's usual fader quality. They're actually very similar to the S4s faders, short body faders with no rails. They trade a tiny bit of wobble for not having that plastic feel to them, but both of them are rather smooth. The 2000s faders aren't like the Nexus, they don't have rails, and thus feel like most short body faders out there, and the S4's aren't scratchy at all, but have a bit of a plasticly feel.

Apparently you don't know the difference between "short body" and "short throw," the later being the length of the fader, and the former being the depth of the fader body, usually translating to the weight of the fader. Both the 2000 and the S4 have short body faders, some of the smallest faders available, the difference being that the S4 has a slight plastic feel to them. Both have similar amounts of weight.

Bolted metal stems are pretty much standard, I don't know many controllers that don't have them, and they're hardly something to brag about. "uncrackable buttons"? Really...? How-the-fuck often do buttons crack on controllers.... WTF?

If you've ever used Numark's NDX/4trak buttons, you'd see it happen all the time. Hard plastic buttons that aren't constructed well have a tendency to get launched into the floor or snapped in half when being hammered on by DJs every evening . That's why you usually see rubberized buttons, or Pioneer sytle over engineered plastic switches. Fun fact: the 4Trak has plastic stems, and horrendous faders

And the jogs, as we've previously covered are not the same as on a CDJ 2000 AT ALL.

It's the same technology, no matter how much you scream, even if the S4's travel is a bit longer than the Pioneer's, touch sensitive jogs are kind of a joke

The design for the 4-track is fucking great, I dunno wtf you're on about. I'm assuming you just don't use most of the controls it offers in your workflow, if you were able to switch to CDJs and a mixer. Also, you've made it clear that you've never touched one... The build quality is at least fairly good.... And MILES beyond the S4. Those buttons arent amazing, but they're, again, MILES beyond the S4 buttons.

Like I said above, it doesn't have the "industry standard" metal stems, and has some of the worst faders I've ever felt on a piece of hardware. It's crossfader is Numark's midrange fader, that should give you a clue. And it's switches are exactly the same as the shittastic NDX series, which was famous for launching cue switches through the floor, or microswitches going out. The only thing it has is a metal case, and that's completely useless

Honestly... The only thing I can believe of that would spawn this ill-informed silliness you just spouted is can be summed up with.... "Nice try, Native Instruments"

Nice try, I actually don't like NI at all, but I see their place in the market.
This text is because vbulletin is dumb
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Shishdisma
As a former owner of an S4, and the current owner of a pair of CDJ-2000s and a DJM-2000, I really don't understand how anyone can believe of an S4 as "toylike." Maybe it's got something to do with old hat morons and reviewers who believe anything less than 40lbs and made of steel won't last, but of all the complaints I have with the S series, durability and build quality is definitely not one of them. The OP is essentially a misinformed stream of FUD and prejudice, especially considering Pio jogs have the same style of pressure-sensitivity. If you want to get into the subtleties of the buttons, sure, but the fact of the matter is that with bolted metal stems, magnetic jogs, smooth, short body faders, and uncrackable buttons, the S series is here to stay.

Despite my serious misgivings with the controllers, there's no other controller I'd touch over an NI knob-box if I was going to go back to the abomination that is Traktor. Anyone who has any complaints, especially outward complaints, about the build quality is just paranoid or stupid.

And L oh fucking L at people recommending the 4trak over the S series, now I know whos just a paranoid old hat who gets off to hardware wrapped in steel. These same people would probably recommend a beat to shit M3D or an M5G over a TTX or super OEM because of "legacy and reliability" or something equally paranoid. The 4trak is an abominable pile of poor build quality design decisions, let's be real here: Numark had a good design philosophy with the NS7, and then when they built the NS6/4trak, they just thought "hmmm... Should we use the awesome buttons we custom made for the NS7, or those shitty buttons we put on our old NDX players that felt like crap and cracked all the time? Let's go with the NDX." Add that to the plastic pots, sandy feeling faders, and poorly mounted jogs, and you've got nothing but a metal case.
I.... What.... Sir, I rarely say this.... But you seem to just have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever.

First off. I'm new-school-as-fuck, not some "old-hat". The S4 was my second DJ controller ever. I know all of what I know about gear through playing around with other artists' gear.

Next, your rant about build quality is... I'm blown away. I find it hard to believe that you've ever touched an S4, and I'm not sure you know much about DJ gear at all. "smooth, short body faders"? You have a DJM-2000, and you believe the S4 faders are smooth??? I'm calling shenanigans here, sir. Either you don't own a DJM-2000, or you've never used an S4. Further, "short-bodied"? Are you claiming that the pitch faders being short is a good thing? Now I'm questioning if you're even a DJ.

Bolted metal stems are pretty much standard, I don't know many controllers that don't have them, and they're hardly something to brag about. "uncrackable buttons"? Really...? How-the-fuck often do buttons crack on controllers.... WTF?

And the jogs, as we've previously covered are not the same as on a CDJ 2000 AT ALL.

The design for the 4-track is fucking great, I dunno wtf you're on about. I'm assuming you just don't use most of the controls it offers in your workflow, if you were able to switch to CDJs and a mixer. Also, you've made it clear that you've never touched one... The build quality is at least fairly good.... And MILES beyond the S4. Those buttons arent amazing, but they're, again, MILES beyond the S4 buttons.


Honestly... The only thing I can believe of that would spawn this ill-informed silliness you just spouted is can be summed up with.... "Nice try, Native Instruments"
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Tommi Bass
Mr Golden cannot map talent for you.
I have my doubts that he can even map talent for himself... He's a damn talented performer, but his staff seems to do all of the mapping for him at this point....

Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
I felt the same way about the toyish feel of the S4 when I tried it out. There was something about it that I just didn't like. I ended up with a Xone DX. It has since been discontinued, not because of build quality or there being anything wrong with the controller except maybe the jog wheels not being touch sensitive or too small for some people but because of pricing. It was priced a little high at $1200 when it first came out and it was touted as a 4 deck controller for Itch when Itch first came out. I got it about a year ago for $600 and it works and intergrates perfectly with Traktor. You can probably still buy a new one or get it used for $600 or less. Built like a tank, 20 channel soundcard, can't go wrong.

I do also own maschine andI believe its a great piece of gear and I also own an audio 6 and believe its great as well. So NI isn't all that bad.
That's actually a totally badass-looking piece of kit that I've never even heard of somehow... Except for no touch jogs, which I could get over, and only four cue points... I'd fuckin LOVE that thing if I were still into all-in-ones. Wish I'd picked that up originally instead of my S4. Damn. Also, yeah, the NI sound cards are pretty good. The maschine is still somewhat low-build quality for it's price, but nowhere near the atrocities of the S2/S4.


Originally Posted by rotebass
Maybe if you didn't write the biggest TL;DR post ever
Don't reply critically to shit you don't read, and you won't look like a dubass, champ!
Nancey Inderlied
08.08.2012		As a former owner of an S4, and the current owner of a pair of CDJ-2000s and a DJM-2000, I really don't understand how anyone can believe of an S4 as "toylike." Maybe it's got something to do with old hat morons and reviewers who believe anything less than 40lbs and made of steel won't last, but of all the complaints I have with the S series, durability and build quality is definitely not one of them. The OP is essentially a misinformed stream of FUD and prejudice, especially considering Pio jogs have the same style of pressure-sensitivity. If you want to get into the subtleties of the buttons, sure, but the fact of the matter is that with bolted metal stems, magnetic jogs, smooth, short body faders, and uncrackable buttons, the S series is here to stay.

Despite my serious misgivings with the controllers, there's no other controller I'd touch over an NI knob-box if I was going to go back to the abomination that is Traktor. Anyone who has any complaints, especially outward complaints, about the build quality is just paranoid or stupid.

And L oh fucking L at people recommending the 4trak over the S series, now I know whos just a paranoid old hat who gets off to hardware wrapped in steel. These same people would probably recommend a beat to shit M3D or an M5G over a TTX or super OEM because of "legacy and reliability" or something equally paranoid. The 4trak is an abominable pile of poor build quality design decisions, let's be real here: Numark had a good design philosophy with the NS7, and then when they built the NS6/4trak, they just thought "hmmm... Should we use the awesome buttons we custom made for the NS7, or those shitty buttons we put on our old NDX players that felt like crap and cracked all the time? Let's go with the NDX." Add that to the plastic pots, sandy feeling faders, and poorly mounted jogs, and you've got nothing but a metal case.
Lela Umanskaya
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
I did recommend several controllers. Twice now you've failed at reading my posts and thrown a useless, personally-targetted argument out there with no data to support your silliness, and made an ass out of yourself. Could you please post-stalk me and disagree with everything i say so I look better?
Maybe if you didn't write the biggest TL;DR post ever

Too bad about your sig. other though...
Roseanna Signorini
07.08.2012		I felt the same way about the toyish feel of the S4 when I tried it out. There was something about it that I just didn't like. I ended up with a Xone DX. It has since been discontinued, not because of build quality or there being anything wrong with the controller except maybe the jog wheels not being touch sensitive or too small for some people but because of pricing. It was priced a little high at $1200 when it first came out and it was touted as a 4 deck controller for Itch when Itch first came out. I got it about a year ago for $600 and it works and intergrates perfectly with Traktor. You can probably still buy a new one or get it used for $600 or less. Built like a tank, 20 channel soundcard, can't go wrong.

I do also own maschine andI believe its a great piece of gear and I also own an audio 6 and believe its great as well. So NI isn't all that bad.
Noriko Lebowitz
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by Tommi Bass
Mr Golden cannot map talent for you.
mind if I sig this?
Cristian Carmona
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by oliosky
If you want good quality, well built, durable DJ gear. Don't buy an all in one. Its pretty fucking simple.
i stand by my VCI-300 its a freaking tank.
Latoria Kavulich
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by oliosky
If you want good quality, well built, durable DJ gear. Don't buy an all in one. Its pretty fucking simple.
gotta agree with you there.

btw 666 posts \m/
Johnetta Olewine
07.08.2012		If you want good quality, well built, durable DJ gear. Don't buy an all in one. Its pretty fucking simple.
Latoria Kavulich
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by Ed Paris
+1!
been using my vci for a couple of years now. was believeing about buying the s2 but, i wouldn
Eloy Kiepke
07.08.2012		Lol okay guys, he get's the picture... He's wrong about HID vs midi. Poor guy made a simple mistake and we all jumped on him haha,

...

Also, several people are talking on both sides about build quality. It's not just how long it lasts, it's also how it feels while you use it. My S4's broken SEVERAL times in SEVERAL different ways because of the terrible build quality.... but just as importantly, it's also felt like a stupid little toy the entire time. It's also caused me tons of "fuck ups" when mixing, because of the shitty buttons not pressing like they should, the fader caps flying off mid-throw, and the "touch" system for the jogwheels being a complete joke.

Also, what is this "being careful" crap some of you are talking about? If something is of a good build quality, you shouldn't have to be more careful with it than you would a pioneer mixer or a TT1200.

Originally Posted by rotebass
@OP, they are popular because they get the job done and they are inexpensive. If you don't like them, recommend something you do like instead of getting all butt hurt and writing a god damn diatribe about it. Did someone at NI poke your significant other or something?
I did recommend several controllers. Twice now you've failed at reading my posts and thrown a useless, personally-targetted argument out there with no data to support your silliness, and made an ass out of yourself. Could you please post-stalk me and disagree with everything i say so I look better?



Originally Posted by RockingClub
True!

I believe comparing the S4 with the VCI 400 (EGE) and the Numark 4Trak in this thread is a bit unfair due to their release dates. But if you want to buy a controller today there will be some controllers offering more here or there than the S4. But as Tommi Bass said this doesn't mean you will automatically be better than all the S4 users out there.
Well true, but the focus of this post was asking why people STILL suggest the S4 to people. And yeah, of course you won't automatically be better than someone else based on your gear... But:
A, it's a lot more fun to play on good gear
B, it sucks when gear breaks
C, you won't have as many screw-ups due to inferior gear... So that definitely gives you the leg up, if you're keeping score.
Cristian Carmona
07.08.2012		if you use traktor the S2/S4 make sense, if you use DVS a X1, F1 or maschine would help out alot. Traktor used to be my cup of tea and it gets the job done, if you dont like NI products many other companies want ur business
Monique Swanier
07.08.2012		TBH my first controller was all plastic and ffelt cheap, works fine to this day even though I moved on. It's been dropped and thrashed around ect. still in 1 piece. My S2 is still in perfect condition as well, Are you just buying them to see if they will surive Lenovo torturer tests?
Freida Leash
07.08.2012		I don't usually recommend the S2 to anyone... if you want a two channel mixer, you probably want it even cheaper and may even be fine with the software bundled with it. I do recommend the S4 to people that are on the fence about how far they are going to expand later. The appeal of timecode and raw features in a four channel controller out of the box is too great. I like the VCI-400, and would recommend it, but if someone has no software, no controller the S4 is the better deal for the aspiring bedroom dj that will last them a long time and grow with them. Given that most of the people asking what controller to buy are going to spend most of their time playing to stuffed animals, the S4 seems like a great choice as there is little they will have to do but plug it in and rock out.

Personally I'm on the fence between VCI-400 and S4 in my recommendation to myself, if I can pick up an used one of either I am going to give it a go.
Geri Jarra
07.08.2012		+1 Seems like an NI bash thread. tbh I almost hate how much I like NI stuff
Lela Umanskaya
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by Tommi Bass
Midi is dope...... if you use quality cable and VERY short runs. (I use gold plated connectors and special one direction flow cables at under 1mtr and the two foxes are connected using 30cm cable)
Tell me moar about these one direction flow cables

@OP, they are popular because they get the job done and they are inexpensive. If you don't like them, recommend something you do like instead of getting all butt hurt and writing a god damn diatribe about it. Did someone at NI poke your significant other or something?
Chasidy Heckenbach
07.08.2012
Originally Posted by MelloState
Sir, HID is what they use which is more responsive than midi
Think your mouse for instance, it's HID, it moves when you move it.
Midi suffers from latency issues at times and more midi send/receive and it will be more apparent.
totally untrue. a device driver has to poll a hid device and pretty much gets a packet containing the current status of all controls of the device. with midi the device driver also polls for messages but just gets short packets containing an update for one control at a time (some drivers may also do blocking reads which only makes it even better)

the midi code only has to process this short packet while for hid it first has to work out exactly what has changed - whether this happens in some device driver or application logic - it's still a lot more work.

there are advantages in using hid, it's basically just more flexible, but the advantages have nothing to do with latency at all.

a hid driver may well poll the device less often than it changes and so lose status packets, which probably doesn't matter - while midi data tends to get buffered. if you were really flooding the system with data (that isn't going to happen from a dj type controller) then maybe there'd then be an advantage there to use hid, since with midi you can't ignore any packets as they're all just delta's.
Elsie Golis
07.08.2012		OP is right on the build quality, I had mine for 8 months home use only until the faders started acting up and I had to call NI support. They gave me a brand new one which is just sitting around now waiting to be sold so I can buy a DJM700 or something similiar that's built like a tank and has replacement parts.

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