WHY do so many people here use and suggest the S2/S4??

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WHY do so many people here use and suggest the S2/S4??
Posted on: 07.08.2012 by Eloy Kiepke
I've been meaning to ask this for a while... This isn't a rant, I'm really wondering here.
Just about every time anyone makes one of those "which controller should I buy" posts, the majority of the responses are NI controllers, and I don't see why. For every NI controller, there are a great many controllers that will fit the same purpose, but much better.

On the hardware side, S2/S4 is are two of the worst all-in-one controllers I've ever used (I made the mistake of buying an S4.) The build quality of these is very slightly above that of a Mixtrack. The faders are all of a very low-quality. The "touch" system for the jogwheels is a joke.... They literally just made them a giant button, because good touch technology was apparently too expensive. The rubberized buttons are average at best, even if you ignore their sad travel distance. The plastic toggle buttons (including the VERY important deck-switching buttons) are absolutely god-awful, and often just don't connect, when you believe you've pressed them. The controllers themselves are entirely made out of cheap plastic. I really don't get why people believe of them as being high-end controllers, as they're actually very close to the bottom of the totem pole as far as quality goes.



Then there's the part which makes them inexcusable, and we should all be furious at NI for: The "software integration". This system is absolutely terrible for the consumer, and exists solely for the benefit of NI. They claim that this propriety system is superior, but it is VASTLY inferior to even simple 14-bit midi, as well as any open HID system. They claim that this system allows special functionality not available with midi, which is completely untrue. NI intentionally developed these "exclusive features" to work with the S2/S4 but not other controllers. I can't stress this enough:


Every single feature/advantage of the S2/S4 could have been done more easily and better with 14-bit midi, if NI hadn't wanted to market their proprietary system.


It would have taken less work to make these features available to other controllers, than it took to make them exclusive. Plus the cost of what came out of their intentional extra work to make these features exclusive, is a massive loss in versatility. Because of this proprietary system, you cannot remap the S2/S4 in any way (except for a couple of minor tweaks they give you, and a few very minor and specific "hacks" that we've figured out). NI included a crappy 7-bit midi system in the S2/S4 which you CAN map, but you lose all of the functionality they meant to be exclusive to the S2/S4. This means you cannot use the loop length displays, the "on air" and other indicators, and you lose all high-resolution controls like the pitchfaders and jogwheels.

People talk about how it gives them better "integration" which is complete unquantifiable silliness. They say that they want to just plug it in and go, they don't want to mess with mappings.... But almost every single other controller out there comes with a factory mapping for traktor which installs JUST as easily as the S2/S4... Actually in most cases, more easily, because of the constant S2/S4 driver bugs and total failures with each new version of traktor.

Yes, the S4 has a traktor-certified soundcard inside, which allows you to use timecode. That is the ONLY bonus I've ever been able to see... But so few people use it, and even the ones who do would be better (and more cheaply) served by just getting a traktor sound card and a couple of modular controllers.

So what does that leave for good qualities of the S2/S4...? The stock mapping being good? So you're willing to permit ALL of the other failures, because you like the mapping that the S2/S4 comes with (and is completely limited to)? Even if you're a total noob, or just hate mapping... You're willing to pay the extra money for inferior build-quality and function, because you don't want to hit "import mapping" from the CD that comes with most controllers? I'm really honestly wondering here... Now that I've explained the failures of the S2/S4... What is left that you believe makes the S2/S4 worth using, over superior controllers? All I can picture is ignorance to what is out there that is so much better than the S2/S4...
Eloy Kiepke
09.08.2012		Wrong again! MAssive steaming pile of wrong!

Originally Posted by Shishdisma
Of course I know that HID has to be supported by the software manufactures, the point is that you don't have to stare down the controller editor at any point, and the integration and mapping will be as tight as the hardware can manage, and the protocol allows. Which, in terms of firepower, HID has a massive leg up on MIDI. Stock mapping has some slightly loose jogs? Either open up the encoder preferences and spend a day tuning it, or eat shit. Buttons not arranged in a way that makes sense relative to the hardware. Either remap the surface, or deal with it. HID, at least in all of it's current implementations, gives you the CDJ level of control: every button does exactly what it says it does.
Even after we've explained that mapping is the same across HID and midi, you still don't see how massively incorrect you are? as we've said a million times now, HID and midi are just protocols. You could make CDJs send high-resolution midi and do ALLLLL of the same things. You're backwards here, in that if you don't like the way buttons are laid out in HID, you can't change them with traktor, because traktor doesn't have HID mapping support. With midi, you CAN remap it, instead of "deal with it".


Originally Posted by Shishdisma
Which is why when Traktor finally got AHID integration with CDJs, everyone was super pumped to use an inferior protocol, what with the screen and stylus display feedback, and the great jogwheel control. Things like screen feedback and 1 to 1 jog contol are why AHID are better suited than MIDI.
The only people who were pumped were people who, like you, don't understand the difference between midi and HID. And what the fuck is 1 to 1 jog control...? Are you talking about in reference to a turntable, or...?

Originally Posted by Shishdisma
When someone creates a MIDI mapping, the jog integration is a tangled mess of encoder tuning and sensitivity settings, while HID jogs, as far as I know, simply track the jog's movements, without the spaghetti mess of settings and such required to get the jogs to actually resemble 1 to 1 control.
wrong wrong wrong. Like we've said, HID and midi are just protocols for sending data. You still have to go through alllllll of the same steps. You've just seen them done for you with HID more than you've seen them done for you with midi. They're just as hard to deal with across both. The slight exception that comes to mind is that HID only sends data when activated, whereas midi constantly sends the last integer it was set to, but as far as I know, this isn't really an obstacle at all, it's just a difference.

Originally Posted by Shishdisma
And no MIDI mapping or controller is capable of elevating itself above a box of knobs: no display feedback means the controller will always be limited with a laptop's screen.
Wrong again! display feedback is completely possible with midi! It's all still just numbers, champ. Only difference is if you were going to be sending text. You'd need to figure out a system of translating single integers into letters... Which I'm positive could easily be done, using the SIXTEEN THOUSAND ticks of 14 bit midi.

I can't imagine it being possible to send video through HID, IF it's even possible to send pictures... So I don't believe we need to worry about that.... any other display feedback you believe HID can send that midi can't? It's possible that there is some obscure thing, but it doesn't come to mind.




Jesus christ, where's Nem0nic already?? He can explain why 14-bit midi is better, more eloquently than I can, AND he can explain why he used it on his CMD series.
Nancey Inderlied
09.08.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
As popinjay said, controllers send numbers to a program, the mapping part is to tell the software what to do when those numbers are received and that is done by someone whether it's you, DJTT staff, the work experience kid at the manufacturer or someone in the development team of the software you are using.

I strongly believe your beef is with the wrong people... Manufactures can't get perfect jogwheel integration because NI don't want to let them have it without paying for it. Mapping is only allowing enough functionality to shut people up If they are using unapproved hardware and probably only there currently there because of the legacy, otherwise it would be locked up faster than you can say "serato does it why shouldn't NI" especially at the ridiculous retail price it dropped to.
Of course I know that HID has to be supported by the software manufactures, the point is that you don't have to stare down the controller editor at any point, and the integration and mapping will be as tight as the hardware can manage, and the protocol allows. Which, in terms of firepower, HID has a massive leg up on MIDI. Stock mapping has some slightly loose jogs? Either open up the encoder preferences and spend a day tuning it, or eat shit. Buttons not arranged in a way that makes sense relative to the hardware. Either remap the surface, or deal with it. HID, at least in all of it's current implementations, gives you the CDJ level of control: every button does exactly what it says it does.

Which is why when Traktor finally got AHID integration with CDJs, everyone was super pumped to use an inferior protocol, what with the screen and stylus display feedback, and the great jogwheel control. Things like screen feedback and 1 to 1 jog contol are why AHID are better suited than MIDI.

When someone creates a MIDI mapping, the jog integration is a tangled mess of encoder tuning and sensitivity settings, while HID jogs, as far as I know, simply track the jog's movements, without the spaghetti mess of settings and such required to get the jogs to actually resemble 1 to 1 control. And no MIDI mapping or controller is capable of elevating itself above a box of knobs: no display feedback means the controller will always be limited with a laptop's screen.
Celine Surico
09.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
Because of how easy this is once you understand this fact, I assert that even a beginner with no knowledge or interest in mapping, would still be much better-served with a higher-quality controller. Not even just because they might want to get into mapping later one, but because of the build quality, the reliability (I understand if you've never had an issue on a mac, but for ~%80 of us PC users, every single update to traktor breaks the S4), and even just the functionality. Those two notched push loop knobs, for example... Those could have just been six buttons, and most people would have liked them better, especially for beatjumping ( believe about how often you accidentally turn the knob to hard and jump twice)
?? You complain about PC stating that it's fine with Macs and blame it on S4. Anyway, I'm out of this discussion, it's getting into bizarro-logic-land.
Celine Surico
09.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
You just summed up Trakor much better than I ever could. You're completely right. If Traktor had come out right now, midi mapping would NOT be an option. They'd probably have an even more locked version of Itch's business plan. This is why we'll likely never see an update to the (i can't emphasize this enough) ATROCIOUS controller manager... Because they don't want us to midi map things, they want us to buy their hardware. This is because they apparently couldn't figure out how to make enough profits from software, like VDJ or Ableton do, so they are trying to squeeze money out of hardware, despite being a software company.
Hmm, that (successful) business model sounds very familiar....
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
Manufactures can't get perfect jogwheel integration because NI don't want to let them have it without paying for it. Mapping is only allowing enough functionality to shut people up If they are using unapproved hardware and probably only there currently there because of the legacy, otherwise it would be locked up faster than you can say "serato does it why shouldn't NI" especially at the ridiculous retail price it dropped to.

You just summed up Trakor much better than I ever could. You're completely right. If Traktor had come out right now, midi mapping would NOT be an option. They'd probably have an even more locked version of Itch's business plan. This is why we'll likely never see an update to the (i can't emphasize this enough) ATROCIOUS controller manager... Because they don't want us to midi map things, they want us to buy their hardware. This is because they apparently couldn't figure out how to make enough profits from software, like VDJ or Ableton do, so they are trying to squeeze money out of hardware, despite being a software company.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by ChilledoutCharlie
To get back to the original point of this thread and to add my 2 cents. I currently own an S4 and have had no issues with it, I even took it on a 7 hour flight to the cayman islands when I moved here, it was wrapped in clothing in my checked bag (only one aspect of build quality I know but I'm not going to discuss build quality as am not an expert).

I personally believe the S4 is fine, not brilliant but not a train wreck, I get no crashing or bugs but I am using a Mac. The VCI 400 did not exist when I purchased my S4 however so my decision may have been different if I had had this option.

I am not very technical, mapping does not interest me (but as has been mentioned traktor mappings are easy to install on other controllers). I have read this entire thread (until starting to type this) and have noted that the fact the S4 and Traktor are so integrated seems to be suggested to be a bad thing. Whilst for those people saying this it may be true for me it definitely is not. I have no desire to change the way the S4 controls Traktor. I assume you are talking about mappings etc here but apologies if I am wrong.

When I purchased my S4 I had not been DJing for about 4 or 5 years. I did not have the money to afford a couple of CDJs and a mixer, and software (as I wanted to use software). I wanted to buy a controller to be able to mess around and re-kindle my passion for music. I decided on an S4 as I wanted a sound card, software and a controller all in one. As mentioned I am not very technical I could plug and play. Excellent. For me buying an S4 was a decision I made because I wanted to get back in to DJing the easiest way I possibly could.

Now... knowing what I know now would I still buy an S4? Probably not as I would like to go down a more modular route. Do I regret my decision to buy an S4? Absolutely not, it has enabled me to rekindle my passion for music and I would not have got to the position where I knew I wanted to go more modular without it.

I still believe the S4 is one of the best options for people starting out who want to do it the easiest, and reasonably priced (you can save a lot of money compared to a VCI), ways they can and who are not very technical. Based on this would I recommend the S4 to someone like that, yes.

Holy shit. Thank you. Very well written and thought out post. Also, thank you for knowing it's okay to not have an about something if you don't know very much about it (regarding build quality outside of it breaking)

I understand you not having the same issues as many of us are if you have no interest in mapping. The only point I believe you missed in my posts, as well as some other people's, is that the easy plug and play is JUST as easy with other controllers. Some midi controllers actually come "traktor-ready", meaning the mapping is built into the firmware, so it works even easier than the S4 (because you generally don't have to update drivers). Even the controllers that don't come "traktor ready" are just as easy to plug in and go: Most controllers come with a CD with a traktor mapping on it, and all you have to do is hit the big "import" button in the controller manager, then navigate to the file.

Because of how easy this is once you understand this fact, I assert that even a beginner with no knowledge or interest in mapping, would still be much better-served with a higher-quality controller. Not even just because they might want to get into mapping later one, but because of the build quality, the reliability (I understand if you've never had an issue on a mac, but for ~%80 of us PC users, every single update to traktor breaks the S4), and even just the functionality. Those two notched push loop knobs, for example... Those could have just been six buttons, and most people would have liked them better, especially for beatjumping ( believe about how often you accidentally turn the knob to hard and jump twice)
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Shishdisma
HID only has to be mapped in situations like VDJ where you're building an interface, Serato and Traktor both have plug and play solutions for HID via the S/F/X series controllers
As popinjay said, controllers send numbers to a program, the mapping part is to tell the software what to do when those numbers are received and that is done by someone whether it's you, DJTT staff, the work experience kid at the manufacturer or someone in the development team of the software you are using.

I strongly believe your beef is with the wrong people... Manufactures can't get perfect jogwheel integration because NI don't want to let them have it without paying for it. Mapping is only allowing enough functionality to shut people up If they are using unapproved hardware and probably only there currently there because of the legacy, otherwise it would be locked up faster than you can say "serato does it why shouldn't NI" especially at the ridiculous retail price it dropped to.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012		Thank you, Popinjay, I would have been much less civil, as he's actually trying to tell ME I don't know what I'M talking about, while spouting glaringly incorrect stuff like that.

Popinjay explained very well why you're wrong about most of that silly shit, so I'll just pick up on the other stuff.

Originally Posted by Shishdisma
Sure, you could load some half assed manufacturer supplied mapping, but the jogs definitely won't work.
You're literally claiming that any manufacturer that uses midi instead of HID automatically has "half-assed" mappings? You're not realizing that mapping works the same way whether it's HID or midi... It's just the protocol that varies.

Originally Posted by Shishdisma
You're also forgetting that MIDI is an inherently dumb protocol, and doesn't support any meaningful data transfer between devices, limiting your setup to a bunch of knob boxes with lights.
You literally just said nothing with any meaning whatsoever. "bunch of knob boxes with lights"? What does that even mean? You're STILL not getting that HID and midi are just protocols for sending data. They both send numerical data, it's just the means by which they do this.



Originally Posted by Shishdisma
There's a reason HID exists, and there's a reason MIDI exists, for control interface situations, HID is a much more painless solution due to it's integration abilities, whereas MIDI has universal communication ability, great for production gear .
You're still throwing around the word "integration" in a silly way dude. HID is just a protocol, you can do all of the same-we'll call it "auto-mapping", because you're struggling with the concept- with midi. ALL of the same things can be done with midi as with HID.
Johnetta Olewine
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Shishdisma
HID only has to be mapped in situations like VDJ where you're building an interface, Serato and Traktor both have plug and play solutions for HID via the S/F/X series controllers, or CDJs. I'm not currently aware of a conventional MIDI controller that doesn't have to be mapped explicitly, control by control, function by function. Sure, you could load some half assed manufacturer supplied mapping, but the jogs definitely won't work. You're also forgetting that MIDI is an inherently dumb protocol, and doesn't support any meaningful data transfer between devices, limiting your setup to a bunch of knob boxes with lights. There's a reason HID exists, and there's a reason MIDI exists, for control interface situations, HID is a much more painless solution due to it's integration abilities, whereas MIDI has universal communication ability, great for production gear .

Not to any meaningful degree. You COULD spend an hour mapping out every function on a CDJ, and then have the screen be completely dead. Or you could plug it in with AHID and have it start working, like completely, like right away.
But you couldn't map it differently yourself using HID. Is THIS the main argument why the S series is shit?
Random X
09.08.2012		Ah dammit... You went in and closed it, just before I went in!
Latoria Kavulich
09.08.2012		Pool is closed people.

09.08.2012		Shish, I believe you might be one of those people just making shit up.

Are you really asking why we don't use MIDI for everything? You must be asking a rhetorical question because otherwise.....

Nancey Inderlied
09.08.2012		Ok, Saurus is just trolling at this point. You obviously don't understand what MIDI is. It's a series of control signals. The resolution of those control signals is meaningless, because the messages sent and the amount of messages available are extremely limited. Not to mention that it can't accurately track a jog's movements, without precisely calibrated encoder settings and modifiers. Why dont we use MIDI for everything then? Things like mice and keyboards? According to you, it's "just a method of sending data."

09.08.2012		It never ceases to amaze me how many people on this community drink the manufacturers' kool aid and repeat marketing blurb with no understanding of what it actually means, maybe just making some shit up along the way.



Here are some facts for you -

The S4 is a pretty great, if plastiky controller.
14 bit is just as good a protocol for control as HID. HID's only real advantage is for CDJ integration. Other than that the only reason to use it would be for locking down the device a la the NI F1. It's really not needed on controllers.
NI will frequently fuck up the Windows drivers and blame windows, then fix these 'windows' problems in the updates of their drivers. That doesn't mean it was a windows problem to start with.
Lastly (and this is more of a question than a fact) who the fuck would scratch on jogwheels?

Eloy Kiepke
09.08.2012		Wrong again! MAssive steaming pile of wrong!

Originally Posted by Shishdisma
Of course I know that HID has to be supported by the software manufactures, the point is that you don't have to stare down the controller editor at any point, and the integration and mapping will be as tight as the hardware can manage, and the protocol allows. Which, in terms of firepower, HID has a massive leg up on MIDI. Stock mapping has some slightly loose jogs? Either open up the encoder preferences and spend a day tuning it, or eat shit. Buttons not arranged in a way that makes sense relative to the hardware. Either remap the surface, or deal with it. HID, at least in all of it's current implementations, gives you the CDJ level of control: every button does exactly what it says it does.
Even after we've explained that mapping is the same across HID and midi, you still don't see how massively incorrect you are? as we've said a million times now, HID and midi are just protocols. You could make CDJs send high-resolution midi and do ALLLLL of the same things. You're backwards here, in that if you don't like the way buttons are laid out in HID, you can't change them with traktor, because traktor doesn't have HID mapping support. With midi, you CAN remap it, instead of "deal with it".


Originally Posted by Shishdisma
Which is why when Traktor finally got AHID integration with CDJs, everyone was super pumped to use an inferior protocol, what with the screen and stylus display feedback, and the great jogwheel control. Things like screen feedback and 1 to 1 jog contol are why AHID are better suited than MIDI.
The only people who were pumped were people who, like you, don't understand the difference between midi and HID. And what the fuck is 1 to 1 jog control...? Are you talking about in reference to a turntable, or...?

Originally Posted by Shishdisma
When someone creates a MIDI mapping, the jog integration is a tangled mess of encoder tuning and sensitivity settings, while HID jogs, as far as I know, simply track the jog's movements, without the spaghetti mess of settings and such required to get the jogs to actually resemble 1 to 1 control.
wrong wrong wrong. Like we've said, HID and midi are just protocols for sending data. You still have to go through alllllll of the same steps. You've just seen them done for you with HID more than you've seen them done for you with midi. They're just as hard to deal with across both. The slight exception that comes to mind is that HID only sends data when activated, whereas midi constantly sends the last integer it was set to, but as far as I know, this isn't really an obstacle at all, it's just a difference.

Originally Posted by Shishdisma
And no MIDI mapping or controller is capable of elevating itself above a box of knobs: no display feedback means the controller will always be limited with a laptop's screen.
Wrong again! display feedback is completely possible with midi! It's all still just numbers, champ. Only difference is if you were going to be sending text. You'd need to figure out a system of translating single integers into letters... Which I'm positive could easily be done, using the SIXTEEN THOUSAND ticks of 14 bit midi.

I can't imagine it being possible to send video through HID, IF it's even possible to send pictures... So I don't believe we need to worry about that.... any other display feedback you believe HID can send that midi can't? It's possible that there is some obscure thing, but it doesn't come to mind.




Jesus christ, where's Nem0nic already?? He can explain why 14-bit midi is better, more eloquently than I can, AND he can explain why he used it on his CMD series.
Nancey Inderlied
09.08.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
As popinjay said, controllers send numbers to a program, the mapping part is to tell the software what to do when those numbers are received and that is done by someone whether it's you, DJTT staff, the work experience kid at the manufacturer or someone in the development team of the software you are using.

I strongly believe your beef is with the wrong people... Manufactures can't get perfect jogwheel integration because NI don't want to let them have it without paying for it. Mapping is only allowing enough functionality to shut people up If they are using unapproved hardware and probably only there currently there because of the legacy, otherwise it would be locked up faster than you can say "serato does it why shouldn't NI" especially at the ridiculous retail price it dropped to.
Of course I know that HID has to be supported by the software manufactures, the point is that you don't have to stare down the controller editor at any point, and the integration and mapping will be as tight as the hardware can manage, and the protocol allows. Which, in terms of firepower, HID has a massive leg up on MIDI. Stock mapping has some slightly loose jogs? Either open up the encoder preferences and spend a day tuning it, or eat shit. Buttons not arranged in a way that makes sense relative to the hardware. Either remap the surface, or deal with it. HID, at least in all of it's current implementations, gives you the CDJ level of control: every button does exactly what it says it does.

Which is why when Traktor finally got AHID integration with CDJs, everyone was super pumped to use an inferior protocol, what with the screen and stylus display feedback, and the great jogwheel control. Things like screen feedback and 1 to 1 jog contol are why AHID are better suited than MIDI.

When someone creates a MIDI mapping, the jog integration is a tangled mess of encoder tuning and sensitivity settings, while HID jogs, as far as I know, simply track the jog's movements, without the spaghetti mess of settings and such required to get the jogs to actually resemble 1 to 1 control. And no MIDI mapping or controller is capable of elevating itself above a box of knobs: no display feedback means the controller will always be limited with a laptop's screen.
Celine Surico
09.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
Because of how easy this is once you understand this fact, I assert that even a beginner with no knowledge or interest in mapping, would still be much better-served with a higher-quality controller. Not even just because they might want to get into mapping later one, but because of the build quality, the reliability (I understand if you've never had an issue on a mac, but for ~%80 of us PC users, every single update to traktor breaks the S4), and even just the functionality. Those two notched push loop knobs, for example... Those could have just been six buttons, and most people would have liked them better, especially for beatjumping ( believe about how often you accidentally turn the knob to hard and jump twice)
?? You complain about PC stating that it's fine with Macs and blame it on S4. Anyway, I'm out of this discussion, it's getting into bizarro-logic-land.
Celine Surico
09.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
You just summed up Trakor much better than I ever could. You're completely right. If Traktor had come out right now, midi mapping would NOT be an option. They'd probably have an even more locked version of Itch's business plan. This is why we'll likely never see an update to the (i can't emphasize this enough) ATROCIOUS controller manager... Because they don't want us to midi map things, they want us to buy their hardware. This is because they apparently couldn't figure out how to make enough profits from software, like VDJ or Ableton do, so they are trying to squeeze money out of hardware, despite being a software company.
Hmm, that (successful) business model sounds very familiar....
Rey Holubar
08.08.2012		Firstly, as far as I know, the Controller Manager was always atrocious, even before NI started making hardware. It is as it was programmed for some time now.

Also, NI did say one of their next goals after the release of 2.5 is to improve the Controller Manager. Sorry I can't give you the link to where I read that, but they did say it. I am really looking forward to improvements in the Controller Manager.

As for build quality and the S4/S2 being so great or not debate. I can't really argue against the points being made, but I also can't say they are all completely right either. I can say, I have an S4 and it has its small quirks here and there, but still, it is solid enough to make me believe it was worth the price I had paid for it and it does the job I want it to do well enough to leave me happy with it. That is all a product needs to do for it to be accepted by me, and I would believe the same goes for any other customer and it seems many others have accepted it as "good". As I get more professional with mixing music, will it still fit my purposes? I don't know. But for sure, the S4 can do a lot, probably a lot more than most people will ever need or want and one of the great pluses it has to me is it opens up a world of creativity that wasn't there in other controllers for Traktor and that is why I bought one too. So overall, I'd say the S4 is recommendable, but everyone still needs to weigh in their preferences for a controller and choose the one that fits them best.

scamo
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
Manufactures can't get perfect jogwheel integration because NI don't want to let them have it without paying for it. Mapping is only allowing enough functionality to shut people up If they are using unapproved hardware and probably only there currently there because of the legacy, otherwise it would be locked up faster than you can say "serato does it why shouldn't NI" especially at the ridiculous retail price it dropped to.

You just summed up Trakor much better than I ever could. You're completely right. If Traktor had come out right now, midi mapping would NOT be an option. They'd probably have an even more locked version of Itch's business plan. This is why we'll likely never see an update to the (i can't emphasize this enough) ATROCIOUS controller manager... Because they don't want us to midi map things, they want us to buy their hardware. This is because they apparently couldn't figure out how to make enough profits from software, like VDJ or Ableton do, so they are trying to squeeze money out of hardware, despite being a software company.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by ChilledoutCharlie
To get back to the original point of this thread and to add my 2 cents. I currently own an S4 and have had no issues with it, I even took it on a 7 hour flight to the cayman islands when I moved here, it was wrapped in clothing in my checked bag (only one aspect of build quality I know but I'm not going to discuss build quality as am not an expert).

I personally believe the S4 is fine, not brilliant but not a train wreck, I get no crashing or bugs but I am using a Mac. The VCI 400 did not exist when I purchased my S4 however so my decision may have been different if I had had this option.

I am not very technical, mapping does not interest me (but as has been mentioned traktor mappings are easy to install on other controllers). I have read this entire thread (until starting to type this) and have noted that the fact the S4 and Traktor are so integrated seems to be suggested to be a bad thing. Whilst for those people saying this it may be true for me it definitely is not. I have no desire to change the way the S4 controls Traktor. I assume you are talking about mappings etc here but apologies if I am wrong.

When I purchased my S4 I had not been DJing for about 4 or 5 years. I did not have the money to afford a couple of CDJs and a mixer, and software (as I wanted to use software). I wanted to buy a controller to be able to mess around and re-kindle my passion for music. I decided on an S4 as I wanted a sound card, software and a controller all in one. As mentioned I am not very technical I could plug and play. Excellent. For me buying an S4 was a decision I made because I wanted to get back in to DJing the easiest way I possibly could.

Now... knowing what I know now would I still buy an S4? Probably not as I would like to go down a more modular route. Do I regret my decision to buy an S4? Absolutely not, it has enabled me to rekindle my passion for music and I would not have got to the position where I knew I wanted to go more modular without it.

I still believe the S4 is one of the best options for people starting out who want to do it the easiest, and reasonably priced (you can save a lot of money compared to a VCI), ways they can and who are not very technical. Based on this would I recommend the S4 to someone like that, yes.

Holy shit. Thank you. Very well written and thought out post. Also, thank you for knowing it's okay to not have an about something if you don't know very much about it (regarding build quality outside of it breaking)

I understand you not having the same issues as many of us are if you have no interest in mapping. The only point I believe you missed in my posts, as well as some other people's, is that the easy plug and play is JUST as easy with other controllers. Some midi controllers actually come "traktor-ready", meaning the mapping is built into the firmware, so it works even easier than the S4 (because you generally don't have to update drivers). Even the controllers that don't come "traktor ready" are just as easy to plug in and go: Most controllers come with a CD with a traktor mapping on it, and all you have to do is hit the big "import" button in the controller manager, then navigate to the file.

Because of how easy this is once you understand this fact, I assert that even a beginner with no knowledge or interest in mapping, would still be much better-served with a higher-quality controller. Not even just because they might want to get into mapping later one, but because of the build quality, the reliability (I understand if you've never had an issue on a mac, but for ~%80 of us PC users, every single update to traktor breaks the S4), and even just the functionality. Those two notched push loop knobs, for example... Those could have just been six buttons, and most people would have liked them better, especially for beatjumping ( believe about how often you accidentally turn the knob to hard and jump twice)
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Shishdisma
HID only has to be mapped in situations like VDJ where you're building an interface, Serato and Traktor both have plug and play solutions for HID via the S/F/X series controllers
As popinjay said, controllers send numbers to a program, the mapping part is to tell the software what to do when those numbers are received and that is done by someone whether it's you, DJTT staff, the work experience kid at the manufacturer or someone in the development team of the software you are using.

I strongly believe your beef is with the wrong people... Manufactures can't get perfect jogwheel integration because NI don't want to let them have it without paying for it. Mapping is only allowing enough functionality to shut people up If they are using unapproved hardware and probably only there currently there because of the legacy, otherwise it would be locked up faster than you can say "serato does it why shouldn't NI" especially at the ridiculous retail price it dropped to.
Angella Tsukerman
08.08.2012		To get back to the original point of this thread and to add my 2 cents. I currently own an S4 and have had no issues with it, I even took it on a 7 hour flight to the cayman islands when I moved here, it was wrapped in clothing in my checked bag (only one aspect of build quality I know but I'm not going to discuss build quality as am not an expert).

I personally believe the S4 is fine, not brilliant but not a train wreck, I get no crashing or bugs but I am using a Mac. The VCI 400 did not exist when I purchased my S4 however so my decision may have been different if I had had this option.

I am not very technical, mapping does not interest me (but as has been mentioned traktor mappings are easy to install on other controllers). I have read this entire thread (until starting to type this) and have noted that the fact the S4 and Traktor are so integrated seems to be suggested to be a bad thing. Whilst for those people saying this it may be true for me it definitely is not. I have no desire to change the way the S4 controls Traktor. I assume you are talking about mappings etc here but apologies if I am wrong.

When I purchased my S4 I had not been DJing for about 4 or 5 years. I did not have the money to afford a couple of CDJs and a mixer, and software (as I wanted to use software). I wanted to buy a controller to be able to mess around and re-kindle my passion for music. I decided on an S4 as I wanted a sound card, software and a controller all in one. As mentioned I am not very technical I could plug and play. Excellent. For me buying an S4 was a decision I made because I wanted to get back in to DJing the easiest way I possibly could.

Now... knowing what I know now would I still buy an S4? Probably not as I would like to go down a more modular route. Do I regret my decision to buy an S4? Absolutely not, it has enabled me to rekindle my passion for music and I would not have got to the position where I knew I wanted to go more modular without it.

I still believe the S4 is one of the best options for people starting out who want to do it the easiest, and reasonably priced (you can save a lot of money compared to a VCI), ways they can and who are not very technical. Based on this would I recommend the S4 to someone like that, yes.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012		Thank you, Popinjay, I would have been much less civil, as he's actually trying to tell ME I don't know what I'M talking about, while spouting glaringly incorrect stuff like that.

Popinjay explained very well why you're wrong about most of that silly shit, so I'll just pick up on the other stuff.

Originally Posted by Shishdisma
Sure, you could load some half assed manufacturer supplied mapping, but the jogs definitely won't work.
You're literally claiming that any manufacturer that uses midi instead of HID automatically has "half-assed" mappings? You're not realizing that mapping works the same way whether it's HID or midi... It's just the protocol that varies.

Originally Posted by Shishdisma
You're also forgetting that MIDI is an inherently dumb protocol, and doesn't support any meaningful data transfer between devices, limiting your setup to a bunch of knob boxes with lights.
You literally just said nothing with any meaning whatsoever. "bunch of knob boxes with lights"? What does that even mean? You're STILL not getting that HID and midi are just protocols for sending data. They both send numerical data, it's just the means by which they do this.



Originally Posted by Shishdisma
There's a reason HID exists, and there's a reason MIDI exists, for control interface situations, HID is a much more painless solution due to it's integration abilities, whereas MIDI has universal communication ability, great for production gear .
You're still throwing around the word "integration" in a silly way dude. HID is just a protocol, you can do all of the same-we'll call it "auto-mapping", because you're struggling with the concept- with midi. ALL of the same things can be done with midi as with HID.
Kiyoko Wellisch
08.08.2012		> HID only has to be mapped in situations like VDJ where you're building an interface

Nope, bollocks. HID has to to be mapped just like anything else. The only difference is that with CDJs and Traktor or SSL NI and Serato made the mappings for you. Traktor and SSL suck in the way that they don't support user created mappings for anything other than midi. VDJ, Mixxx, etc are superior in this regard since they support a wider range of protocols.

> I'm not currently aware of a conventional MIDI controller that doesn't have to be mapped explicitly, control by control, function by function.

Every single "Traktor Ready" controller, every single Serato Itch and Intro controller and every single Ableton Live supported controller would be good examples.
You're still not understanding the difference. HID *does not* mean plug and play. Midi *does not* mean you have to map it.

The ability to transmit other data such as text is an advantage, yes. However I don't really see why you would implement an entirely new system for all your buttons instead of just using midi + a very simple protocol for pushing some text.
Johnetta Olewine
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Shishdisma
HID only has to be mapped in situations like VDJ where you're building an interface, Serato and Traktor both have plug and play solutions for HID via the S/F/X series controllers, or CDJs. I'm not currently aware of a conventional MIDI controller that doesn't have to be mapped explicitly, control by control, function by function. Sure, you could load some half assed manufacturer supplied mapping, but the jogs definitely won't work. You're also forgetting that MIDI is an inherently dumb protocol, and doesn't support any meaningful data transfer between devices, limiting your setup to a bunch of knob boxes with lights. There's a reason HID exists, and there's a reason MIDI exists, for control interface situations, HID is a much more painless solution due to it's integration abilities, whereas MIDI has universal communication ability, great for production gear .

Not to any meaningful degree. You COULD spend an hour mapping out every function on a CDJ, and then have the screen be completely dead. Or you could plug it in with AHID and have it start working, like completely, like right away.
But you couldn't map it differently yourself using HID. Is THIS the main argument why the S series is shit?
Nancey Inderlied
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
Nonsense. Midi is a perfectly good protocol. Not that it matters what you're stating as the advantages of HID has nothing to do with HID or midi itself. You can get complete plug and play hardware software integration with any protocol you please. There are lots of HID devices you have to map and there are lots of midi devices that you do not. You are completely failing to understand the difference between the two (which is largely the fault of traktor's lack of HID mapping making everyone assume mappings have to be a midi thing)

Besides, don't the CDJ2000s transmit both a HID protocol and midi?
HID only has to be mapped in situations like VDJ where you're building an interface, Serato and Traktor both have plug and play solutions for HID via the S/F/X series controllers, or CDJs. I'm not currently aware of a conventional MIDI controller that doesn't have to be mapped explicitly, control by control, function by function. Sure, you could load some half assed manufacturer supplied mapping, but the jogs definitely won't work. You're also forgetting that MIDI is an inherently dumb protocol, and doesn't support any meaningful data transfer between devices, limiting your setup to a bunch of knob boxes with lights. There's a reason HID exists, and there's a reason MIDI exists, for control interface situations, HID is a much more painless solution due to it's integration abilities, whereas MIDI has universal communication ability, great for production gear .

Not to any meaningful degree. You COULD spend an hour mapping out every function on a CDJ, and then have the screen be completely dead. Or you could plug it in with AHID and have it start working, like completely, like right away.
Cole Maroto
08.08.2012		well, i was on the fence between a vci-400 ege and s4 a little bit ago and ultimately chose the vci for a couple of reasons. i will say that the s4 does have some positive aspects and i can see why people end up getting them and liking them. i looked at a few other all-in-ones but these 2 were the mains i seriously considered.

first, i would say that the actual layout and configuration is really good. i believe better than any other all in one controller i wanted to get. particularly the position of the jog wheels, buttons and tempo faders.

second, the price. right now it's $800 but most big sites and chains almost always have a 15% off sale going on which brings the price to $680 with free shipping. plus it comes with the traktor software which will save people $90 if they don't already have it and want another controller. if you're looking at the vci-400 ege that's almost $1,100, though i got mine on sale for $950 with a free mono bad and i already had tsp 2.5. i could have gotten the s4, a mf3d and bag for about the same price. the ege is nearly twice the price of the s4 (with 15% off) when you factor in the sofware.

third, the jog wheels. if you are interested in learning how to get the fundamentals of scratching down on a controller this is probably the way to go and they will work pretty well out of the box for this. i'm not one on doing this kind of thing but i can see the appeal it has to some people. it would be a good way to get your feet wet and decide if you want to move up to turntables.

honestly, the build quality doesn't seem all that bad to me, especially for under $700. i don't believe it's as good as the vci controllers but i don't believe it's awful either and with a $400 difference (including software) it seems like it would be worth it for most people. now you could get a deal on a regular vci-400 for $850 with the same discount, but from what i read it's not as easy to use with traktor as the ege due to the custom firmware. even the regular edition vci is still $300 more if you have to get the software.

any hardware isn't without it's downfalls, but that's just the game. it's matter of balance on what you want to do and how much you want to spend to do it, while sacrificing other things. i understand you had a rough time with yours and i always see you trying to talk people out of getting one, but honestly the s4 seems like a pretty good piece of kit considering everything and i can definitely see why people like them.
Kiyoko Wellisch
08.08.2012		Nonsense. Midi is a perfectly good protocol. Not that it matters what you're stating as the advantages of HID has nothing to do with HID or midi itself. You can get complete plug and play hardware software integration with any protocol you please. There are lots of HID devices you have to map and there are lots of midi devices that you do not. You are completely failing to understand the difference between the two (which is largely the fault of traktor's lack of HID mapping making everyone assume mappings have to be a midi thing)

Besides, don't the CDJ2000s transmit both a HID protocol and midi?
Nancey Inderlied
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
If you do the research... really, popinjay and I are right on this one, midi is miles beyond HID. The only reason HID is used is to have an excuse to implement proprietary systems. Everything done between the S2/S4 and traktor could have been done with 14-bit midi better and more easily for NI.
And once again, you've shown you really kind of don't know what you're talking about. MIDI is an archaic protocol for a box of knobs sending button presses and receiving LED feedback. HID is a fully integrated solution for hardware and software interfacing to a purpose. If you honestly believe mapping and configuring a MIDI knob box is superior to plugging in a CDJ and being able to get full hardware integration, I seriously doubt you actually use DJ hardware for any meaningful purpose.

MIDI in DJing is a hobbyist waste of time, a bridge to newbies, or a stopgap to a better integrated solution. No actual professional DJ or club would waste a second of their time mapping a controller when an integrated or standalone solution was in reach. Only performance artists and producers looking to create a workflow, hurdles aside. There's a reason CDJs are the industry standard, and CDJs interface with software via..... HID!
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
This sounds like a misunderstanding to me- I don't believe anyone here is trying to imply you need a special optimisation process to use midi or NI's HID controllers.

Ah, I spose you're right. I was assuming he meant optimize your computer specifically for the S4. Optimizing your computer for traktor in general doesn't help the problem in any way, it'll just cut down on audio latency.


Originally Posted by oliosky
Please back this statement up further. Because from what I understand (and I'm no expert on this shit) audio PC optimization doesn't just apply to midi/HID but to things like overall USB performance, ACPI managment and soundcard performance etc.

And please correct me if I'm wrong, but much of the issues PC folks are having with clicks and pops has nothing to do with HID vs Midi.

Regardless, why is it a problem to optimize anyway? Its take zero time and gets rid of the issues. Not insanity, more logic and common sense.
Yeah i get what you mean... But that's not a problem that I'm talking about. NI's proprietary system includes both its control messages, and its sound card, and every update that NI releases breaks at LEAST one of them. So it's not SPECIFICALLY hid vs midi, I'm talking about NI's proprietary system Vs midi, and it happens to use HID.

If you do the research... really, popinjay and I are right on this one, midi is miles beyond HID. The only reason HID is used is to have an excuse to implement proprietary systems. Everything done between the S2/S4 and traktor could have been done with 14-bit midi better and more easily for NI.
Kiyoko Wellisch
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by MuzicFreq
Thats what updating your drivers are for
Not sure I follow, the updates break it so you're encouraging people to update? Wouldn't requiring no driver what so ever be preferable?
Kiyoko Wellisch
08.08.2012		This sounds like a misunderstanding to me- I don't believe anyone here is trying to imply you need a special optimisation process to use midi or NI's HID controllers.

Personally I'd rather see midi used over proprietary HID stuff- drivers are far from fun! And, like Saurus here, I don't buy into the argument that 14-bit midi isn't precise enough. Midi is more widely supported by software at the moment so I'd much rather see controllers go down that route, though with the S2 and S4 their only real advantages are the bundled traktor licence and the 1 to 1 intergration so it probably doesn't matter that much there. If you didn't want to use traktor you could probably find a better controller for your money.
Johnetta Olewine
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
you don't have to optimize your computer to use any controller that uses midi... And midi is better than HID for most cases.

(to skip the obvious argument from someone who doesn't know this: 14-bit midi has 16,000 ticks, is inherently faster than HID, and requires no special drivers of any kind.)
Please back this statement up further. Because from what I understand (and I'm no expert on this shit) audio PC optimization doesn't just apply to midi/HID but to things like overall USB performance, ACPI managment and soundcard performance etc.

And please correct me if I'm wrong, but much of the issues PC folks are having with clicks and pops has nothing to do with HID vs Midi.

Regardless, why is it a problem to optimize anyway? Its take zero time and gets rid of the issues. Not insanity, more logic and common sense.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by oliosky
Why is optimization insanity? Seems fairly intelligent to me.
you don't have to optimize your computer to use any controller that uses midi... And midi is better than HID for most cases.

(to skip the obvious argument from someone who doesn't know this: 14-bit midi has 16,000 ticks, is inherently faster than HID, and requires no special drivers of any kind.)
Johnetta Olewine
08.08.2012		Why is optimization insanity? Seems fairly intelligent to me.
Eloy Kiepke
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by ksandvik
Or, let's do this reasoning. What might be the big difference between:
a) a tightly coupled tested SW/HW combination if possible with a highly tested small set of laptops (MacOSX)
b) versus a less tested odd combination of SW and HW with a bigger pool of computer configs (custom-built PC being one good extreme example)

This is one main reason I recommend S4, BTW. With a known manufacturer config and latest OS/drivers. Just so your DJ set will not turn into a turd.

Then again I've been far too long in the SW platform business to experience all kinds of bad things happening...
No, no no no no no. It's not some weird combination of stuff, it's midi!! This shit has twenty years of reliability behind it, working with both software, as well as other hardware, and again, as previously covered it works better than HID.


Originally Posted by oliosky
I've been running Traktor 2.1.3 and an S2 on an old Dell 1.6C2D for months with no issues at all. Optimize your PC and you don't have issues. Again, the OPs lack of experience and credibility shines through.


Just to point out, I'm no NI fanboy. But the recent incarnations of traktor and the S2/S4 controllers are sound IMO. Not amazing. But not bad. They do the job intended quite well.
No. bullshit. You should NOT have to optimize a computer based on a controller, that's insanity. say whatever the fuck you want about my "lack of experience", I don't need to personally attack you to show I'm right.
Johnetta Olewine
08.08.2012		I've been running Traktor 2.1.3 and an S2 on an old Dell 1.6C2D for months with no issues at all. Optimize your PC and you don't have issues. This argument about the lack of Traktor integration with the Kontrol series is laughable.


Just to point out, I'm no NI fanboy. But the recent incarnations of traktor and the S2/S4 controllers are sound IMO. Not amazing. But not bad. They do the job intended quite well.
Celine Surico
08.08.2012		Or, let's do this reasoning. What might be the big difference between:
a) a tightly coupled tested SW/HW combination if possible with a highly tested small set of laptops (MacOSX)
b) versus a less tested odd combination of SW and HW with a bigger pool of computer configs (custom-built PC being one good extreme example)

This is one main reason I recommend S4, BTW. With a known manufacturer config and latest OS/drivers. Just so your DJ set will not turn into a turd.

Then again I've been far too long in the SW platform business to experience all kinds of bad things happening...
Celine Surico
08.08.2012
Originally Posted by Saurus
That sounds good in idea, but in practice it's the opposite. The software integration is awful, and fails quite often. Like how for the first six months, 90% of us pc users had sound card issues, or how every single traktor update breaks the S4 for like half of it's owners. You can MUCH more safely trust midi than traktor's HID protocol, and that's a fact with like 25 years of history backing it up.
There's a reason HID exists, I believe you should read about it. And this has nothing to do with sound drivers, HID is run over USB. And it seems you are complaining about Traktor not the HID/S4 integration...

Anyway, I'm using Macs so I seldom if ever have issues with drivers. Trying to remember last time I had issues, nah, don't remember. I'm actually running S4 from an old MBP that was just gathering dust in my studio running SnowLeopard, works like a charm.

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