Should I get over my prejudice/ignorance/snobbery for WAV and change to mp3?

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Should I get over my prejudice/ignorance/snobbery for WAV and change to mp3?
Posted on: 24.04.2012 by Lin Danek
A combination of audiophile snobbery, ignorance, prejudice and an ability to convince myself that I CAN hear the difference has resulted in me only buying WAV files from Beatport and JunoDownload. I am also fortunate enough to have a 500GB ASUS NJ61 that only has my (stripped) OS, Traktor and music library on it. Our currency is about to hit 8 Rands to 1 Dollar and I am reconsidering the cost of WAV upgrades. I've read the science (I'm sick of reading about WAV's "voracious appetite for disc space" and "once lost with compression, always lost to compression") but want to hear from this community.
1. Is WAV REALLY worth it?
2. Will I notice the difference?
I really appreciate the sound quality of the S4 and don't want it compromised.
Kiyoko Wellisch
26.05.2012		Yeah I'm serious. I don't know who they are and they don't understand lossless compression.
Celestine Porebski
26.05.2012
Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
That Magda guy
Haha, u serious?

I agree on the editing point though. For everything else 320kbps is good enough for me.
Kiyoko Wellisch
26.05.2012		> “Uncompressed files are the only ones suitable for proper editing, which is a big part of my life,”

That Magda guy in that article clearly doesn't quite understand how lossless compression works...
Lin Danek
26.05.2012
Dorie Scelzo
12.05.2012		You know iTunes will convert on the fly when you're transferring to an iPod, right? You don't need to keep both as long as you have the losseless?
Jerlene Jernegan
12.05.2012		Nice discussion. I can honestly hear the difference between 320 MP3's and FLAC audio files, but the difference is minimal. I believe a lot of it could well be the placebo effect, but if it sounds nicer (whether placebo or not) it still sounds nicer and therefore is worth it to me. I don't keep all my music in lossless but on the rare occasion I buy a CD (such as m83's Hurry Up We're Dreaming that was recorded on analog media) I'll rip it in both lossless and 320 MP3 format, one for my iPod, one for at home cheapo hi-fi listening consisting of a cheap DAC and decent headphones. For me, it seems to sound nicer (more clear with more punch and better sound staging definition) but many people may disagree and I respect that too. It's all personal experience/opinion.
Anja Ursprung
12.05.2012
Originally Posted by rgtb
that's a bit of a ridiculous statement imo. even if we knew that 24/96 >>> 16/44.1, i'd still believe there'd be many other more important things to do in order to improve sound quality in the clubs...
I do understand what you mean, but, is it not easier for me to improve my source than try to get the club to change the speaker?

How about doing a test like this:

4 decks running, mixing digital with 1 -3 effect on each deck, Mp3 vs 24/96 aiff. Djing is going to more and more production and most of my producer friends says 24/96 make a big different?!
Lela Umanskaya
12.05.2012
Originally Posted by rgtb
that's a bit of a ridiculous statement imo. even if we knew that 24/96 >>> 16/44.1, i'd still believe there'd be many other more important things to do in order to improve sound quality in the clubs...
The day I walk into a club and see a PA that has useful output above 17kHz is the day I will subscribe to that drivel.
Lela Umanskaya
13.05.2012
Originally Posted by djgstefan
I believe the discussion is wrong. It does not matter if no one can hear a different or not. We have to move forward!!! Why should we stop at mp3 or aiff. Lets move forward to 24bit/96khz etc. And to move from mp3 to aiff/WAV is the first step. We have no longer a use for a file format that are a compressed as memory is getting bigger. We should always say -how can we make it sound better and move forward.

And we have also see the source as just a small part in a big chain of gear , that just to improve that, does not make a different. But when all parts are improved makes a different in sound.

So please don't says mp3 is good enough when we can go so much further.
I'll buy .wav when Beatport stops charging a premium for them. I'm not paying 30% more for something that does not provide a tangible benefit. It's strictly business, there is no ROI on paying for lossless audio files.
Dorie Scelzo
13.05.2012
Originally Posted by rgtb
surround sound would be a significant step forward. but few wanna do it because it is much more complicated and costly to record in 5.1 (or 7.1, or ...).
Stereo would be a step forward for a lot of club.
Anja Ursprung
12.05.2012
Originally Posted by rgtb
16-bit/44.1kHz is transparent. 24-bit/96kHz is not a step forward, it's nothing but treading water.

surround sound would be a significant step forward. but few wanna do it because it is much more complicated and costly to record in 5.1 (or 7.1, or ...). also, surround would impose significant challenges on the playback gear and such.
Ok
As long we don't say mp3 is good enough.
Anja Ursprung
12.05.2012		I believe the discussion is wrong. It does not matter if no one can hear a different or not. We have to move forward!!! Why should we stop at mp3 or aiff. Lets move forward to 24bit/96khz etc. And to move from mp3 to aiff/WAV is the first step. We have no longer a use for a file format that are a compressed as memory is getting bigger. We should always say -how can we make it sound better and move forward.

And we have also see the source as just a small part in a big chain of gear , that just to improve that, does not make a different. But when all parts are improved makes a different in sound.

So please don't says mp3 is good enough when we can go so much further.
Catharine Okamura
12.05.2012		It's choad!
Celestine Porebski
12.05.2012		Are you a spy from gearslutz?
Alyse Plantenga
11.05.2012		Reading the first page and realised that there are now 24 so skipped to the end to put in my 2 cents. and dont know if it has been said or not but the general A/B test that people do does little to nothing in telling you what your ears can pick up in audio quality difference. If you only listen to WAV files at CD Quality or higher for and extended period of time (say a month) and then try to listen to an mp3 then you will notice the difference. Practice makes 'almost' perfect in every sense so the more you 'practice' hearing .wav files then the more you will become attuned to them. this basically limits people who are racording/mixing/mastering music for a living from an engineering view will be best to judge wether they can discern the difference.

So what i am trying to say is, wav is better, howevere this can be true if you only listen to wav files on a regular basis, otherwise youre just kidding yourself in believeing you can tell the difference. For that reason, and the fact i dont make a lot of money because of study i will generally get mp3's. Although, if there is a song i just absolutely love and know i will continue to listen to for yrs to come then i will get a wav if not a CD
Dorie Scelzo
11.05.2012		I always assumed it was spelled chode. Or are we believeing different words?
Antonetta Wikel
11.05.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
The fun part was when he more or less aid that a Winer test–in his opinion–is a test that could possibly be manipulated to counteract his foregone conclusions.
Maybe we can dub his theory "The Choad theory"?
Romelia Stankard
11.05.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
The fun part was when he more or less aid that a Winer test–in his opinion–is a test that could possibly be manipulated to counteract his foregone conclusions.
Hey man, don't question him, he's a professional in the music industry.
Dorie Scelzo
11.05.2012
Originally Posted by djproben
Is it called a Winer test because of Ethan Winer? And is he saying that bad sound leads to lower intelligence above?? Huh.
The fun part was when he more or less aid that a Winer test–in his opinion–is a test that could possibly be manipulated to counteract his foregone conclusions.
Romelia Stankard
11.05.2012
Originally Posted by djproben
Is it called a Winer test because of Ethan Winer? And is he saying that bad sound leads to lower intelligence above?? Huh.
yep
Danae Dumler
11.05.2012		Is it called a Winer test because of Ethan Winer? And is he saying that bad sound leads to lower intelligence above?? Huh.
Celestine Porebski
12.05.2012		Damn, his strange theories certainly are funny somehow.

But people do unconciously the feel a difference.. and that difference changes the course of the evening .. Sounds a bit harsh..but a bad sound goes directly against the IQ on the dancefloor over time..and actually also against the amount of woman on the floor over time.. seems to be that the girls are a bit more sensitve here or have the higher iq...
8 in the morning and only drunken guys on the floor? in clubs with a brilliant sound that is just not happening...

So in clubs that dont look into having a good sound the audience is changing..
Up to a point where the audience is leaving.. And than they call an audio pro to help the situation.. But not before..
Not even saying he might not have a point with his "clubs with better PAs have girls on the dancefloor for a longer amount of time", I have no clue, but it could be the case. But the reason behind this would be different, namely that clubs who care to invest a rather large amount of money, time and expertise in their sound systems are more likely to do the rest in the right way too.
Romelia Stankard
12.05.2012		oh man these people hate statistics

I didn't lie when I said this would be entertaining over there
Dorie Scelzo
11.05.2012		Heh…so audioconsult just replied. Apparently it wasn't a Wiener process he was talking about. He got the name wrong (it was supposed to be Winer) and was assuming that I designed the experiment to mask the difference and generate a predetermined result.

So…yeah…he's just a fucking moron.
Lilliana Perris
11.05.2012		LOL @ Jojo....just push the buttons mate....if they light up and make a sound...you good to go!

Whether that sound is wav or mp3....are you gonna feel differently about your sounds?

Dorie Scelzo
11.05.2012
Originally Posted by SherpaPsy
Great article thanks for that...sorry for my ranting, but I am one of those people who has principles and is passionate (and with bad information you can get into trouble being that way). I still believe as DJ's and producers we should work with the best quality audio we can, and I'll stand by that.
No problem. And I agree with you unless there are extenuating circumstances, like the OP has (bandwidth cost in S. Africa).

The few results I've gotten from the test so far are intriguing. Part of me wants to do the test on a PA system, but I don't want to subject myself to 100+dB SPL sound without earplugs for 45 minutes, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't hear a difference with earplugs in.

Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj
They prefer to test all things audio with their eyes....once they can see the logos...then the relative audio quality is "obvious."
Heh. There's a reason I like the low end theory subcommunity .
Layne Koop
11.05.2012
Originally Posted by D-Kem
Just read the Gearsluts thread and astounded as to how much opposition there is in doing the test. You would have thought they would be intrigued to test their ears.
They prefer to test all things audio with their eyes....once they can see the logos...then the relative audio quality is "obvious."
Lauretta Ehrhorn
11.05.2012		Just read the Gearsluts thread and astounded as to how much opposition there is in doing the test. You would have thought they would be intrigued to test their ears.

I will definitely do the test when I find time (most likely next week).
Nilsa Erben
11.05.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
Leeanna Ayla
11.05.2012		I started the test, but had no clue and was just making wild ass guesses. I couldn't even tell when you were telling me which was wav and mp3. Guess my hearing is shot
Dorie Scelzo
11.05.2012
Originally Posted by djproben
I'm sorry, a "wiener test"? Am I the only one who believes this name is quite apt for boys arguing over whose ear is better at detecting subtle nuances in timbre or staging?
Yeah…I asked him about that and he replied with a horrible scan of the first page of a math paper that referred to Wiener Processes, which are a specific subset of stocastic processes. That probably doesn't mean anything to anyone here, and there's no reason it should. They're used for modeling things like the stock market or any other vaguely random (stocastic) time-dependent phenomenon.

That particular phrase doesn't come up at all in anything I can find, other than that old-ass paper.

I'm honestly trying to figure out how the topic could apply to the ABX test before I just call him a moron, but so far the only thing I can see is that he believes the signal degradation caused by mp3 compression (e.g., the results of the null test I mentioned earlier) is stocastic in nature…which is just plain wrong. Or he believes there's a time-dependent random element to people's answers, which would imply that people aren't answering based on "which reference sample does this sound like" or "which format does this sound like" but instead are asking "does this sound better/worse/or the same as the last one?" and that the differences are so subtle that there's a significant time-dependent random element. I asked him about it in the thread, hoping for him to say it's the later of those cases, because him proving that would be sufficient to prove that the statistics I'm doing work.

Or he's just a moron who read the work of other morons and took it as Truth without believeing. Or I'm missing something. I'm honestly not sure which.

Originally Posted by JonathanBlake
[QU*OTE=dj matt blaze;474974]
Mp3 might just "work" for many people, but it isn't the correct way of using our brain for decoding
It's like someone who wants to work inside a mine and he decides to cut his legs because he is too tall for the job
It changes our perception of sound and it gradually makes our brain to use less of its power to decode sound[QU*OTE]

That was a quote from GS, right? Yeah…that one didn't make much sense to me either.

Another gem:
Originally Posted by Teknobeam
If you can't identify the fact that an MP3 is inferior sounding then you might need to get your hearing checked. it's a "no contest" bout. And listening to headphones is not a valid reference. It's funny, when CD's hit the streets, it was a different experience,, vinyl and tape were much smoother, but CD's are pretty damn good. In fact, DAT is outstanding as a digital format. But don't try to tell me that an MP3 is at par. It's not. It's a compromise for a variety of commercial exploits. The irony here is that instead of evolving sound quality with everything else, this is a roll back. I'm OK with the chocolate bars getting smaller, but don't expect me to be OK with lousy sound.
So…apparently CDs are worse than DAT? Really? I know they can go up to like 16/48, but…really………
Lin Danek
11.05.2012		[QUOTE=dj matt blaze;474974]
Mp3 might just "work" for many people, but it isn't the correct way of using our brain for decoding
It's like someone who wants to work inside a mine and he decides to cut his legs because he is too tall for the job
It changes our perception of sound and it gradually makes our brain to use less of its power to decode sound[QUOTE]

Danae Dumler
10.05.2012		I'm sorry, a "wiener test"? Am I the only one who believes this name is quite apt for boys arguing over whose ear is better at detecting subtle nuances in timbre or staging?
Romelia Stankard
10.05.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
Fair point, but I believe that's what he was talking about.

GS has a lot of good information and a lot of very talented people, but there's a lot of analog snobbery that I just don't understand.
audioconsult is a real winner

Originally Posted by audioconsult
and how many people make such a degree each year? Dont understand me wrong..but science is something differnt than having a a semrandmn test in the internet that probably will show semi randown results with a strong tendency towards mp3 recognition.. but bevcause the wild spread you wont be able to draw the right conclusions. You wont prove a thing this way.. statistically ther will be allways enough people that get it wrong and only a few that will have it right all the time.. just these few are enough proove allready..just no statistical one.


A wiener test works with masking and deciving the test persons by carefull choice of testmaterials that hide the differences rather than emphazising them.


so a propaganda test.. but ok..i believe you that you dont have any intentions to manipulate the result.. just..the testmethod will have the same result as a manipulated test because you dont have the listening conditions under control.. its not a lab test..
Dorie Scelzo
10.05.2012		Fair point, but I believe that's what he was talking about.

GS has a lot of good information and a lot of very talented people, but there's a lot of analog snobbery that I just don't understand.
Roseanna Signorini
10.05.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
He was talking about the tape decks used in recording that cost more than a lot of really nice cars, not home hifi decks that sound like crap and hiss all over everything.

They add noise, but there's something to be said for the compression they add as well.
I dunno about that because of his reference to vinyl...
Dorie Scelzo
10.05.2012
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
"long gone the days of warm tapedeck sounds and delicate vinyl.."

HUH??? warm tapedeck??? with that warm hisssssssssssss lol
He was talking about the tape decks used in recording that cost more than a lot of really nice cars, not home hifi decks that sound like crap and hiss all over everything.

They add noise, but there's something to be said for the compression they add as well.
Romelia Stankard
10.05.2012		I guess gearslutz' reaction isn't too surprising. Ethan Winer from that video a couple pages back got permabanned from gearslutz a few weeks ago, I guess people got tired of getting challenged and got frustrated and just banned him.
Roseanna Signorini
10.05.2012
Originally Posted by Xonetacular
Summary of every reply in gearslutz thread: ".wav is clearly better and I can definitely hear the difference, but I refuse to take the test and it wouldn't prove anything."
I was just reading some of the gearslutz comments, fkn hilarious....

this 1 is my fav....

"MP3 compression and its artifacts, have to do with with the frequency content and dynamics. Usually, the difference is more obvious in high frequencies, but that depends on the kind of music too because of masking frequencies and perception of levels at various frequency regions (psychoacoustics).

Mp3 might just "work" for many people, but it isn't the correct way of using our brain for audio "decoding". It's like someone who wants to work inside a mine and he decides to cut his legs because he is too tall for the job...we do something similar to our brain by continuously listening to mp3 files. The greatest ability of our senses is the "adaptation" of our perception. This is a defensive mechanism against the odds of nature but not against an artificial environment. At the end we all should be able to hear, but we won't be able to hear in the same way as we did many years before we started listening to mp3s. It changes our perception of sound and it gradually makes our brain to use less of its power to decode sound.

It doesn't matter if you can't hear any difference...it's that adaptation to the degraded signal characteristics that makes our brains to gradually abandon quality listening."


I grew up listening to records and cassette tapes on boomboxes and car stereos but now my listening perception is degrading from hearing mp3s lol

edit: Now I just read a reply to that:

"long gone the days of warm tapedeck sounds and delicate vinyl.."

HUH??? warm tapedeck??? with that warm hisssssssssssss lol
Romelia Stankard
10.05.2012		Summary of every reply in gearslutz thread: ".wav is clearly better and I can definitely hear the difference, but I refuse to take the test and it wouldn't prove anything."

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