Why did Sasha move away from Ableton and back to CDJ's?

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Why did Sasha move away from Ableton and back to CDJ's?
Posted on: 09.11.2011 by Arcelia Siebeneck
thought this might be an interesting thing to discuss...

a few years back there was a big debate among the midibox scene about whether or not Sasha had paid vast amounts of money to produce his own ableton live controller based on the midibox. Around that time he released at least two albums (the Involver series) and was dj'ing around the world using the Mavern and Ableton Live.

More recently, every time I've seen him play out, he's been back on the CDJ's. I heard that his controller wasn't 100% reliable all the time but it still seems like a strange regression from someone who was so pro-ableton.

Thoughts?
Belen Wermes
14.11.2011
Originally Posted by mostapha

I didn't hate it. By that, I mean that he didn't ruin anything that I loved, and I was much more impressed with him being restrained than I expected to be. He and I have a very different idea of what constitutes deep house, and if that's the music he likes, I understand where that quote came from. I disagree entirely, but that's because we listen to very different House.

I wouldn't listen to it again, and I still wouldn't pay to see him
Dorie Scelzo
15.11.2011		Awesome weekend of tech/grip work for an indie film, and now I'm back at real work
Belen Wermes
14.11.2011
Originally Posted by mostapha

I didn't hate it. By that, I mean that he didn't ruin anything that I loved, and I was much more impressed with him being restrained than I expected to be. He and I have a very different idea of what constitutes deep house, and if that's the music he likes, I understand where that quote came from. I disagree entirely, but that's because we listen to very different House.

I wouldn't listen to it again, and I still wouldn't pay to see him
Dorie Scelzo
15.11.2011		Awesome weekend of tech/grip work for an indie film, and now I'm back at real work
Belen Wermes
14.11.2011
Originally Posted by mostapha

I didn't hate it. By that, I mean that he didn't ruin anything that I loved, and I was much more impressed with him being restrained than I expected to be. He and I have a very different idea of what constitutes deep house, and if that's the music he likes, I understand where that quote came from. I disagree entirely, but that's because we listen to very different House.

I wouldn't listen to it again, and I still wouldn't pay to see him
Dorie Scelzo
15.11.2011		Awesome weekend of tech/grip work for an indie film, and now I'm back at real work
Belen Wermes
14.11.2011
Originally Posted by mostapha

I didn't hate it. By that, I mean that he didn't ruin anything that I loved, and I was much more impressed with him being restrained than I expected to be. He and I have a very different idea of what constitutes deep house, and if that's the music he likes, I understand where that quote came from. I disagree entirely, but that's because we listen to very different House.

I wouldn't listen to it again, and I still wouldn't pay to see him
Dorie Scelzo
15.11.2011		Awesome weekend of tech/grip work for an indie film, and now I'm back at real work
Belen Wermes
14.11.2011
Originally Posted by mostapha

I didn't hate it. By that, I mean that he didn't ruin anything that I loved, and I was much more impressed with him being restrained than I expected to be. He and I have a very different idea of what constitutes deep house, and if that's the music he likes, I understand where that quote came from. I disagree entirely, but that's because we listen to very different House.

I wouldn't listen to it again, and I still wouldn't pay to see him
Dorie Scelzo
15.11.2011		Awesome weekend of tech/grip work for an indie film, and now I'm back at real work
Arcelia Siebeneck
14.11.2011
Originally Posted by nem0nic
There's no conspiracy here, guys.
haha fair play
Margie Pavell
12.11.2011
Originally Posted by ksandvik
I don't know, I'm a SW engineer during daytime and I rather be a left-brainer when I do music. I guess everyone is different.

Or, I rather operate like a jazz musician when I create music or DJ rather than analyze and organize.
you should already be organized...

i work in a hospital and have to constantly believe on my feet and make quick decisions...alot of the things i do are now second nature...i can do them without much thought...but i know i can do them well...
Arcelia Siebeneck
12.11.2011
Originally Posted by nem0nic
I'm not quite as bound as Prof, so I'll give a little more information.

Milo, Prof and I are both product managers for companies that make DJ products. It doesn't take a lot of digging to find out who for. We both know VERY WELL the person responsible for making all of the Maven controllers for Sasha. We've both known him for years. We've both held Mavens, opened them up and looked inside them, and talked extensively about what went into the build.

Legally we can't go into any more detail without violating agreements we have made, and violating the trust of a friend. You can choose to believe us or not.
It's strange that you can say they're not based on midibox but can't say anything else. Most of the other likely 'diy midi brain' options are free to use for commercial and closed source projects (arduino, highly liquid, livid, pic-based, etc) - it's really only midibox that has commercial restrictions.

I've no personal reason to believe you're misleading us, but you have to admit (from an outsiders perspective) that there's every reason to deny the Maven is based on midibox hardware and not many reasons to admit it is. The only thing I can believe of is that the hardware designer works for a large midi controller company and he produced the Maven 'in-house' (using said companies intelectual property) with Sasha paying a lot of money to keep the whole thing secret via an NDA. In which case, I'm surprised that now a few years have passed, we haven't seen said company try and commercialise the Maven (again, suggesting that it's based on midibox, making it impossible).

Celine Surico
12.11.2011
Originally Posted by nem0nic
I don't know why the 2 concepts have to be mutually exclusive. Is a painter less of an artist because they believe about what colors to use? You specifically mentioned jazz musicians - are you assuming they dont believe about what they're playing? Every jazz musician i've ever met can tell you what scales they were using in a piece, and why they chose (for instance) Dorian over Phrygian. That attitude is kind or ridiculous when you believe about it.

People work the way that's best for them. And now, with the advent of new technology, there are more options than ever to be creative.
Miles Davis once fired a musician in his band when he caught him practicing solos for the event in the hotel room...

You learn the scales and so forth to a point -- and then you really start playing and don't believe about scales and techniques.

I believe the same is true of DJ:ing, as well. I just came home from a jam session, didn't exactly believe of scales and stuff when improvising weird Hendrix stuff on-stage...
Diogo Dj Dragão
12.11.2011
Originally Posted by ksandvik
Or, I rather operate like a jazz musician when I create music or DJ rather than analyze and organize.
I don't know why the 2 concepts have to be mutually exclusive. Is a painter less of an artist because they believe about what colors to use? You specifically mentioned jazz musicians - are you assuming they dont believe about what they're playing? Every jazz musician i've ever met can tell you what scales they were using in a piece, and why they chose (for instance) Dorian over Phrygian. That attitude is kind or ridiculous when you believe about it.

People work the way that's best for them. And now, with the advent of new technology, there are more options than ever to be creative.
Celine Surico
12.11.2011
Originally Posted by keithace
did you watch the Roger Sanchez interview on DJsounds?...he says he has a ton of loops and samples and that he is anal about organizing and keep track of them...i would believe most of the heavy hitters in any genre are like that with their music...

your brain is only limited by your use of it...

i am sure if you played a few times a week you'd have better control and organization skills with your music...

(not you per se...i am speaking of "you" as a person)
I don't know, I'm a SW engineer during daytime and I rather be a left-brainer when I do music. I guess everyone is different.

Or, I rather operate like a jazz musician when I create music or DJ rather than analyze and organize.
Hipolito Scionti
11.11.2011
Originally Posted by MiL0
the thing I miss is the controller subcommunity being more diy/hack hardware related and less about commercial controllers. It's something that made this place different from most other websites and really matched the original ethos of DJTT (Ean hacking midi controllers with arcade buttons). It's something that's sorely missed from here now I believe, but I guess it's inevitable as soon as DJTT became a proper business and not just Ean's blog.
100%

I said when the S4 came out I was worried the original spirit of this community would die...
Delicia Rissmann
11.11.2011
Originally Posted by mostapha
Link? I can't seem to find it.

I did remember listening to an audio-only mix a long time ago, and I gave up on it in fifteen minutes because despite not having any controllerist routines, it sounded disjointed and
Candace Carmouche
14.11.2011		everyones entitled to an opinion. ean knows better than anyone, you cant do well in this business if you expect everyone to love you for everything you do.

someone liking some things you do, but not others, in the end is positive. i mean, its better than that person hating everything you do right?
Belen Wermes
14.11.2011
Originally Posted by mostapha

I didn't hate it. By that, I mean that he didn't ruin anything that I loved, and I was much more impressed with him being restrained than I expected to be. He and I have a very different idea of what constitutes deep house, and if that's the music he likes, I understand where that quote came from. I disagree entirely, but that's because we listen to very different House.

I wouldn't listen to it again, and I still wouldn't pay to see him
Dorie Scelzo
15.11.2011		Awesome weekend of tech/grip work for an indie film, and now I'm back at real work
Arcelia Siebeneck
14.11.2011
Originally Posted by nem0nic
There's no conspiracy here, guys.
haha fair play
Kanesha Bredin
13.11.2011		Fairly new to posting here but been around as a lurker far longer than my join date, but in regards to the early area of discussion in this thread:

I have found, in my own experience, that the more exciting (to me) or enjoyable the music, the less I care about performance or extras, such as effects, but the more mundane the music, the more I am concerned with "what else can I do?".

For instance, I have been around the block (and record store) many times over the years, and recently, one of my closest friends decided that since he didn't own turntables, it made more sense for me to hold on to the last remnants of his vinyl collection (which consists mostly of funky and deep house, but these records are the cream of his collection; these are the last records that he owns and the songs that he cherishes the most). I have always liked his funky taste in music and the vibe of many of his records, and what I have from him is a collection of the songs that always stood out in my mind during his sets. Now I have the opportunity to play these songs at home whenever I want, and the strange thing is that when I play his records, I never believe of adding effects, or loops, or anything. I just love the songs and the memories that I have tied to them from years ago when he played these sets at various venues in western NC, and I just vibe out to the music.

But then, I play a lot of music that doesn't hit me as close to home, such as when I play a wedding gig, and suddenly, I feel like I need more flexibility when I play this music. I need more power and capability from my controller. I need to have more efficient functionality from the mapping. So on and so forth.

But the critical point is that I have no connection to the music emotionally and so I need to make it interesting for me, whereas if the music is something that I am connected to, either because of my memories attached to it or because it is an incredible work of music, the less I have to do to make it fun, and suddenly simply beatmatching 2 tracks together and letting them play on their own is enough.

Just my .02.

Back to the Maven discussion...
Margie Pavell
12.11.2011
Originally Posted by ksandvik
I don't know, I'm a SW engineer during daytime and I rather be a left-brainer when I do music. I guess everyone is different.

Or, I rather operate like a jazz musician when I create music or DJ rather than analyze and organize.
you should already be organized...

i work in a hospital and have to constantly believe on my feet and make quick decisions...alot of the things i do are now second nature...i can do them without much thought...but i know i can do them well...
Verlene Geevarghese
12.11.2011
I'm surprised that now a few years have passed, we haven't seen said company try and commercialise the Maven (again, suggesting that it's based on midibox, making it impossible).

I remember reading that it was considered briefly, however the cost would have been too high even using lower grade materials? Also I believe it would have required a level of attention from Sasha that he probably couldn't or didn't want to commit.
Diogo Dj Dragão
13.11.2011
You learn the scales and so forth to a point -- and then you really start playing and don't believe about scales and techniques.
And that freedom to noodle around exists because of the work you've put into learning the theory in the first place. To assume that Sasha doesn't work with the same freedom is wrong-headed.

Also, about Miles Davis. I can promise you that the musicians that made Miles (Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie) were ALWAYS playing through material. And I'm sure that Miles did as well. Again, you're making things mutually exclusive that aren't. You're trying to turn using a specific workflow a pejorative, when all it is is a workflow. One that has a LOT in common with "regular" DJing. People who use Ableton Live to create with are no less artistic than people who create with Traktor, Serato, or plain old hardware.

It's strange that you can say they're not based on midibox but can't say anything else.
Why is that strange? I know of at least one other entity that was contacted by our friend to provide an engine for Maven that was later found to be lacking - so it wasn't used. We're not talking about them either. Same goes for other components like the audio interface.

Also, your whole believeing about how a product like this would be commercialized is incorrect. Let's assume that I built a prototype of a product based around MIDIBox. WHY ON EARTH would I try to move that same "engine" to the commercialized product? I'm not some kid in my bedroom - I have RnD at my disposal, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to throw at the situation. I want to develop a solution that is EXACTLY powerful enough to perform to my expectations, but not any more. I want EXACTLY enough room in memory to store the code needed to run the device, but no more. Why?

COST.

Remember, I'm going to make these things by the THOUSANDS. Paying $15 for a MIDIBox is insane to even believe about when I can have programmers set up a PSoC for me that does the same thing for $2. Across 40K units, that just saved me and my company a half million dollars. But lets say that I am re-using that same PSoC from one or more other products my company already makes, and we're ordering the PSoCs from Cypress by the millions. Well, that per chip price might even drop down to $1 or less per unit.

See what I'm getting at?

Anyone REALLY interested in making a commercial Maven would have NOTHING to lose by basing the original models on MIDIBox, because there's no way in hell they would use MIDIBox in the final production anyway.

There's no conspiracy here, guys.
Arcelia Siebeneck
12.11.2011
Originally Posted by nem0nic
I'm not quite as bound as Prof, so I'll give a little more information.

Milo, Prof and I are both product managers for companies that make DJ products. It doesn't take a lot of digging to find out who for. We both know VERY WELL the person responsible for making all of the Maven controllers for Sasha. We've both known him for years. We've both held Mavens, opened them up and looked inside them, and talked extensively about what went into the build.

Legally we can't go into any more detail without violating agreements we have made, and violating the trust of a friend. You can choose to believe us or not.
It's strange that you can say they're not based on midibox but can't say anything else. Most of the other likely 'diy midi brain' options are free to use for commercial and closed source projects (arduino, highly liquid, livid, pic-based, etc) - it's really only midibox that has commercial restrictions.

I've no personal reason to believe you're misleading us, but you have to admit (from an outsiders perspective) that there's every reason to deny the Maven is based on midibox hardware and not many reasons to admit it is. The only thing I can believe of is that the hardware designer works for a large midi controller company and he produced the Maven 'in-house' (using said companies intelectual property) with Sasha paying a lot of money to keep the whole thing secret via an NDA. In which case, I'm surprised that now a few years have passed, we haven't seen said company try and commercialise the Maven (again, suggesting that it's based on midibox, making it impossible).

Celine Surico
12.11.2011
Originally Posted by nem0nic
I don't know why the 2 concepts have to be mutually exclusive. Is a painter less of an artist because they believe about what colors to use? You specifically mentioned jazz musicians - are you assuming they dont believe about what they're playing? Every jazz musician i've ever met can tell you what scales they were using in a piece, and why they chose (for instance) Dorian over Phrygian. That attitude is kind or ridiculous when you believe about it.

People work the way that's best for them. And now, with the advent of new technology, there are more options than ever to be creative.
Miles Davis once fired a musician in his band when he caught him practicing solos for the event in the hotel room...

You learn the scales and so forth to a point -- and then you really start playing and don't believe about scales and techniques.

I believe the same is true of DJ:ing, as well. I just came home from a jam session, didn't exactly believe of scales and stuff when improvising weird Hendrix stuff on-stage...
Diogo Dj Dragão
12.11.2011
Originally Posted by ksandvik
Or, I rather operate like a jazz musician when I create music or DJ rather than analyze and organize.
I don't know why the 2 concepts have to be mutually exclusive. Is a painter less of an artist because they believe about what colors to use? You specifically mentioned jazz musicians - are you assuming they dont believe about what they're playing? Every jazz musician i've ever met can tell you what scales they were using in a piece, and why they chose (for instance) Dorian over Phrygian. That attitude is kind or ridiculous when you believe about it.

People work the way that's best for them. And now, with the advent of new technology, there are more options than ever to be creative.
Celine Surico
12.11.2011
Originally Posted by keithace
did you watch the Roger Sanchez interview on DJsounds?...he says he has a ton of loops and samples and that he is anal about organizing and keep track of them...i would believe most of the heavy hitters in any genre are like that with their music...

your brain is only limited by your use of it...

i am sure if you played a few times a week you'd have better control and organization skills with your music...

(not you per se...i am speaking of "you" as a person)
I don't know, I'm a SW engineer during daytime and I rather be a left-brainer when I do music. I guess everyone is different.

Or, I rather operate like a jazz musician when I create music or DJ rather than analyze and organize.
Hipolito Scionti
11.11.2011
Originally Posted by MiL0
the thing I miss is the controller subcommunity being more diy/hack hardware related and less about commercial controllers. It's something that made this place different from most other websites and really matched the original ethos of DJTT (Ean hacking midi controllers with arcade buttons). It's something that's sorely missed from here now I believe, but I guess it's inevitable as soon as DJTT became a proper business and not just Ean's blog.
100%

I said when the S4 came out I was worried the original spirit of this community would die...
Delicia Rissmann
11.11.2011
Originally Posted by mostapha
Link? I can't seem to find it.

I did remember listening to an audio-only mix a long time ago, and I gave up on it in fifteen minutes because despite not having any controllerist routines, it sounded disjointed and
Belen Wermes
11.11.2011
Originally Posted by mostapha
If I'd found it on my own, I wouldn't have listened because of that sentence.

I really hope that sentence had something to do with search-engine optimization and not what Ean actually believes. 'cuz, well, I believe he's flat-out wrong about everything in it.

I've got to drive to UGA today
Margie Pavell
11.11.2011
Originally Posted by ksandvik
Personally I never understood Sasha's idea of having thousands of Live clips available for all kinds of mixes. Too many choices, the brain is limited.

I believe having a lot of songs is fine but you do the choices for mixes based on loops on the fly rather than having things broken into small entities that is tough to keep track of, not to speak of maintaining and creating more of those. Or, suddenly DJ:ing becomes an engineering task...
did you watch the Roger Sanchez interview on DJsounds?...he says he has a ton of loops and samples and that he is anal about organizing and keep track of them...i would believe most of the heavy hitters in any genre are like that with their music...

your brain is only limited by your use of it...

i am sure if you played a few times a week you'd have better control and organization skills with your music...

(not you per se...i am speaking of "you" as a person)
Celine Surico
11.11.2011		Personally I never understood Sasha's idea of having thousands of Live clips available for all kinds of mixes. Too many choices, the brain is limited.

I believe having a lot of songs is fine but you do the choices for mixes based on loops on the fly rather than having things broken into small entities that is tough to keep track of, not to speak of maintaining and creating more of those. Or, suddenly DJ:ing becomes an engineering task...
Dorie Scelzo
11.11.2011
Originally Posted by duerr
pretty sure this is the one i was believeing of...

http://www.eangolden.com/new-mix-rec...ve-the-end-up/
Originally Posted by Ean
Even though house music has taken a dive over the past 8 years or so, its poised to make a big comeback with producers working out brand new versions of the classic Detroit beats.
If I'd found it on my own, I wouldn't have listened because of that sentence.

I really hope that sentence had something to do with search-engine optimization and not what Ean actually believes. 'cuz, well, I believe he's flat-out wrong about everything in it.

I've got to drive to UGA today
Diogo Dj Dragão
11.11.2011
...and if he didnt use midibox why not prove to the world that it was his own design by telling us?
MIDI isn't rocket science. There are many solutions available to a DIYer - even more if you have better resources available.
Belen Wermes
11.11.2011
Originally Posted by mostapha
Link? I can't seem to find it.
pretty sure this is the one i was believeing of...

http://www.eangolden.com/new-mix-rec...ve-the-end-up/
Dorie Scelzo
11.11.2011		There are a lot of midi projects besides midibox. He might have just chosen a different one, though I don't really have a clue why.

And idk about the other people, but I can vouch for nem0nic knowing what he's talking about
Margie Pavell
11.11.2011		must have missed this part of his response...

Originally Posted by nem0nic
Legally we can't go into any more detail without violating agreements we have made, and violating the trust of a friend. You can choose to believe us or not.

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