Are post fader fx possible in Traktor
Are post fader fx possible in Traktor Posted on: 23.10.2011 by Jina Cemer for example, if I use reverb and and pull the channel fader down i'd still like to hear the reverb. I used to be able to do it on my old djm 600.I believe traktor uses pre fader fx, so when I pull the fader down it cuts the fx along with the music, which is a bit annoying! Anyone know if there is a way around this? I'm using a mixtrack pro. Thanks. | |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 26.11.2011 |
Originally Posted by DJ MiCL
it all seems a bit odd to me. i can only presume due to some kind of error trapping/correction so if it finds the two beatjumps mapped to one control, or 2 different beatjumps coming in at the same time (tho still sequentially ofc) traktor tries to do what it believes u wanted... just a shame that it's wrong i suppose this way might simplify some complex mappings within traktor - less modifiers etc needed if u can override an existing control? but since no one seems to quite know how/why it processes multiple items this behaviour doesn't make much sense to me. |
| Dionne Bullock 26.11.2011 |
Originally Posted by zestoi
It seems when multiple controls are activated simultaneously, Traktor: (1)Tries to do them all, in the order "older controls first" (2)When it can't handle all, it skips "older controls first" and tries to do the newer ones. and it seems like a list of commands from older to newer set to a single control in Traktor amounts to a sequence of commands being sent from midi masher with none or not enough msleep intervals. Could you confirm this by telling me whether the "remaining 10%" in your older post resulted in a 4 beat jump as well (not 2)? The chronological order restriction seems pretty logical, since it probably amounts to a simpler rewriting of the tsi compared to giving us the option to rearrange the order in the manager. But I guess, instead of just "giving up cause you's telling me too much too fast..." a lot of us would prefer there being a greater time lag to complete the sequence of commands when there are more commands mapped to a single midi signal. Sort of an "auto 3 ms delay if no-can-do-simultaneous" function. |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 26.11.2011 |
Originally Posted by DJ MiCL
also i'm working round the issue that usually in traktor if u have 2 instant type effects buttons that the effects unit disables for that deck once u release the first of the effects. quite simple to fix in midimasher code.
Anyway. I am curious, have you ever compared sending multiple commands via midi masher and assigning a button to do multiple tasks? --because they seem to be two different things to me. From Traktor's point of view, the former is receiving two MIDI inputs at the same time, and the latter is Traktor figuring out in which order to handle the multiple tasks commanded by a single MIDI input. I am very excited about the idea of using an intermediary midi application to bring out the best of Traktor, but am currently more curious about squeezing out every last bit of what Traktor can do on its own
unless it's not possible to map both "jump to active cue" as well as a single "beatjump" to a single button in the controller editor - then i guess there is a difference. i haven't tried that. the only time i tend to use the controller editor these days is to add missing controls in for midimasher to use... i'm sure you're onto something with the order of items in the tsi being important for some things anyway. |
| Dionne Bullock 26.11.2011 | >escapemcp Thanks for the compliment! I was starting to believe everyone was like "dude, relax... no one wants that kind of seriousness in DJing...", since there were posts asking for a workaround at the NI community s every other day right up until I posted just that and then sudden silence... Regarding the correlation of order of action and chronological order of creating the control, I have a feeling that you are on to something. I haven't done enough tests but when I was casually experimenting with LEDs, doing something like (new output 1), (new output 2)...(delete output 1), (new output 1), deliberately making the 2 different outputs conflict, the priority between output 1 and 2 reversed after the "...". Hope this makes sense. However, I also know that there is more to it as well. When I was making the original "volume fader" version of the post fader effects, at one point the button wasn't all-in-one -- I had to press the button once to change the parameters etc.. and then a second time to activate the "ONs" - BUT! when I added more function to the button afterwards, it reverted back into an all-in-one button. I have a feeling there is some-sort-of logical filtering going on there, just not sure yet. >zestoi Thanks for the earlier reply, btw... I was really glad I got some response here unlike the NI community . It seems to me like many members over there mainly reply when they get to point out the poster's shortcomings like "It's already been answered, but.." or "not specific enough. Tell us your system, etc...". Anyway. I am curious, have you ever compared sending multiple commands via midi masher and assigning a button to do multiple tasks? --because they seem to be two different things to me. From Traktor's point of view, the former is receiving two MIDI inputs at the same time, and the latter is Traktor figuring out in which order to handle the multiple tasks commanded by a single MIDI input. I am very excited about the idea of using an intermediary midi application to bring out the best of Traktor, but am currently more curious about squeezing out every last bit of what Traktor can do on its own |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 26.11.2011 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
Code:
capture("lp", "0,0", ALL, 0, function(d,e,v,p)
send("traktor", "beatjump_+2_a", v)
msleep(3)
send("traktor", "beatjump_+4_a", v)
end)
with a delay of 2ms it jumps 6 beats maybe 90% of the time, with 3ms in there it always seems to jump the 6 beats this code tho to jump to the active cuepoint and then beatjump 4 works all the time without any delay in: Code:
capture("lp", "0,1", ALL, 0, function(d,e,v,p)
send("traktor", "jump_to_active_cue_point_a", v)
send("traktor", "beatjump_+4_a", v)
end)
i've also noticed some funnies i traktor if it doesn't get a zero/off message for a certain action then it won't repeat the same action for a while after. which makes sense if u believe how a controller usually works. when u press a button traktor gets an ON message (127 or something) and then when u release it it gets the zero message. |
| Sulema Eshel 26.11.2011 |
Originally Posted by DJ MiCL
Has anyone actually tested in what order Traktor handles multiple commands? If you go into the mapping window, after changing logical controllers (or is it when starting program?? )... the commands appear in a list, with the first command you ever entered at the top and the last at the bottom. I (and probably everyone else) then usually sort this list by comment/assigned to/etc so that it makes more sense, and so loose this 'chronological' sort and can not get it back unless I restart traktor or change logical modifier (or whatever it is that I do to get the 'chron'sort). My thought is that maybe Traktor runs through this chron list to see what it should be doing. Therefore if you map the buttons in the order you want them to be performed in (or maybe even the reverse of this, if Traktor starts at the bottom), and Traktor *may* perform them in the order you want them. I don't know if this has been covered before, as I noticed there was a video from DJTT, where they used midipipe to put a 2ms delay between 'go to cue' and 'beatjump x beats forward' in order to create an Itch type slicer, as they couldn't put the 2 commands on the same button and get them to work. Can anyone confirm/deny this. I am going to test toevening anyhow. Update: Suppose the quick way to test would be to run 2 commands to a button (e.g. go to hotcue 1 & go to hotcue 2), and see if pressing it 10 times comes up with the same result. If the result is the same, then Traktor is following some sort of priority list, that may be able to be taken advantage of without having to use midipipe/bomes et al. If it keeps producing different results, then Traktor IS altering the sequence of commands (maybe it keeps 'scanning' through list - like with button detection on a PIC), and hence my idea is total BS and you should ignore all but the first line of this post - sorry about that |
| Dionne Bullock 17.11.2011 | As Promised, Post fader effects with the cross fader! Since the volume fader retains full control over the output -- unlike the volume fader method I explain in the video -- it's really a lot less likely to screw up your mix by switching to and from post fader effects mode at the wrong time. In fact, as I will explain further below, there is really no "wrong time" with this method, as long as you are aware that what ever effect you've got loaded in the FX Unit you are going to use as the post-fader-fader (i.e., the Gater) is going to lose its function as an effect as soon as you go into PFFX mode. Long and complicated, I know, should be worth it if you really want post fader. Post Cross Fader FX Mode -the mapping- - This is for Deck A - X depends on how you want this method to fit in your setting. Control/Assignment/Conditions/Type/Mode/Value @The mode enter/exit button (10 inputs and 1 output) (1)Effect Select/FX Unit X/none/button/direct/Gater This loads Gater into the FX Unit of your choice when button is pressed. (2)Effect On/FX Unit X/M1=0/button/direct/0 This turns OFF the FX Unit when first entering the mode to make sure that the Gater won't produce sudden unwanted silence. (For example, when entering mode from a full wet flanger) (3)FX Button 1/FX Unit X/none/button/direct/1 This activates the mute button. (4)Effect Parameter 1/FX Unit X/none/button/direct/0 This sets the noise parameter to 0. (5)Modifier #1/Global/M1=0/button/direct/1 (6)Modifier #1/Global/M1=1/button/direct/2 (7)Modifier #1/Global/M1=2/button/direct/1 The above three together work as a toggle switch for Modifier 1 to toggle from default (0) to ON (1), to stand-bye (2), and then back and forth between ON and stand-bye. We need a stand-bye state because we want the cross fader to control the Gater's dry/wet knob at all times when in post fader effects mode, but not when we are using the FX Unit for other effects. (8)Effect On/FX Unit X/M1=2/button/direct/1 This turns ON the FX Unit when moving from stand-by to ON. (9)FX Panel Mode/FX Unit X/none/direct/button/single This changes the panel mode to single if necessary. (10)X-Fader Assign Left(*)/Deck A/M1=1/button/direct/1 This assigns Deck A to the left side of the cross fader when deactivating the post fader effects and moving to stand-bye. (output1)Modifier 1/Global/none/LED/Output/controller range=1to1/MIDI range=0-127/invert and blend unchecked. @The Cross Fader (6 inputs) (1)Effect ON/FX Unit X/M1=1/button/direct/1 This turns the Gater on when post fader effects is activated for the first time. (2)Effect ON/FX Unit X/M1=2/button/direct/0 This turns off the Gater when the fader is moved for the first time after entering stand-bye mode. This could have been assigned to the button, but there is a brief audio burst when the unit it turned off at full right position, which is a likely timing to do just that. (3)Dry Wet Single/FX Unit X/M1=1/FaderKnob/direct/none(*) (4)Dry Wet Single/FX Unit X/M1=2/FaderKnob/direct/none(*) This makes the cross fader control the dry/wet of Gater only when in post fader mode (ON and Stand-Bye). (5)X-Fader/Global/none/FaderKnob/direct/none(*) This is the standard assignment for the crossfader. It should be in your mapping by default. (6)X-Fader Assign Left(*)/Deck A/M1=1/button/direct/0 This deactivates the assignment of Deck A to the left side of the crossfader, when you first move your crossfader with post fader effects ON. Again, this is assigned to the fader not the switch because it's when you move the fader that you really mean to go into the mode. Notes: The controls that I marked (*) depend on how you like your crossfaders to work. I gave an example for a straight forward set up (Deck A to the left side of the not-inverted crossfader) but if you're the type that uses the cross fader the other way around, etc... you might need to play around with these values. I first had a mapping with much fewer programming... However, I kept running into small problems like there would be a brief burst in audio level when turning the Gater off via button. This most likely has to do with the order that Traktor handles things when multiple controls are assigned to one button (because they can't happen all at once). I know I can make a simpler mapping if I were able to choose the order of events, but I guess we will have to wait for NI to feel that's a necessary option for users. Note that you have to do some mapping/programming of your own to work this into your .tsi. The mapping above makes a button that throws Traktor into post fader mode and then into post fader stand-bye mode. It doesn't get you out of it, meaning, even though the stand-bye mode may feel just as if everything is normal, it's not -- for example, moving the cross fader moves the dry/wet knob and turns off the FX Unit. Who wants that when using a flanger or something... The simple --yet more programming needed-- way to go about this would be to make a separate "exit button". Exit mapping example(3 inputs) Effect ON/FX Unit X/none/direct/button/0 X-Fader Assign Left(*)/Deck A/none/button/direct/1 Modifier #1/Global/none/button/direct/0 This could be mapped to a dedicated button, or you can use a shift+"which ever button you are using for the post fader effects toggle", if you know what a shift button is. How I would go about it is to make sure that activating any other effect in the FX Unit used in the post fader mode will restore the default settings for crossfader (because that's about all that needs to be done) and change the state of Modifier #1 to whatever it should be next. If you are the type that uses FX 1 and 3 for Deck A and FX 2 and 4 for Deck B, use another Modifier (#2, perhaps), another FX Unit, and substitute Right for Left and do the same mapping for Deck B. You may need to check or uncheck the invert check box in some controls while you're at it. If you are the kind that uses all FX for all decks and control the routing via the "Effect Unit On" switch: Change all controls for "Effect ON" to "Effect Unit X On". Additionally, create: Effect ON/FX Unit X/none/button/direct/1 (to turn on the effect in case it was off in the prior state) Then, choose a separate button for Deck B, use modifier values 3 and 4 for the ON/Stand-bye toggle, use the same FX Unit as Deck A, and: Duplicate everything! But while you're at it, substitute all Modifier Conditions and Values as 0 to 0 (the same), 1 to 3, and 2 to 4. Additionally, the modifier toggle gets a bit more complicated. You already have for the DeckA button |
| Bertie Metro 16.11.2011 | Great out of the box believeing man ! I bet that with a bit more effort it can be set to also have the equivalent of a sharp fader curve on the cut, to make it scratch action friendly! |
| Dionne Bullock 14.11.2011 | For those who mix externally: In the video I said it works for external mixer mode as well. Obviously, I do not mean that this method will keep the effect sound going even if you cut out the sound using the fader on your hardware DJ mixer. For that, we need a whole other solution. The good news is, there is a real solution for those who mix externally - you get to use the send/return FX. My simulation, however, could be a handy way to get "post fader-ish" sounds, such as muting the song but letting the delay go on for a bit, before fading it back in (which you can't do with the freeze function), for those who mix externally. The downside is that you can't get that effect with the fader on your mixer - you need to use a knob or fader on the controller. |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 14.11.2011 | cunning solution... i have to try this... |
| Cliff Lohman 14.11.2011 | pretty clever! |
| Dionne Bullock 14.11.2011 | Hi, There is the workaround that tdmusic shared on this community (http://www.djranking s.com/community /sho...496#post147496). He basically suggests that one can make the Gater effect simulate a volume fader, which can be hooked up pre-FX, effectively changing the FX to post-fader. I first thought it to be sort of cumbersome to set up and use another effect to simulate post fader FX, but now that I've gotten into custom mapping, I've managed to come up with settings that can make the whole "simulating" part pretty much transparent. Since I see quite a few people out there waiting for Traktor to update its FX units to support post-fader, I made a video tutorial explaining what can be done now to get quasi post fader effects in Traktor. Something to do while we wait... Please check it out if you are interested! Simulating post fader FX in Traktor Pro 2 (approx. 7 minutes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MwqxEKsU2U Since it's not "Real" post fader, there are a few things... ##Post fader effects (PFFX) mode trouble shooting## (1) You got to have the volume up before going into Post Fader FX Mode. The simulation itself is positioned pre-fader, so this is unavoidable. If you're mixing in, cut in the sound and throw it into PFFX. (2)You want to be careful coming out of PFFX mode when the fader is all the way down. The fader being down usually means you want that deck to be quiet right? Well, coming out of PFFX entails sound, because the REAL volume fader is up - remember? (3)Maybe okay for mixing out, but not really great for mixing in. Suppose you decided to go into PFFX mode half way during "mixing out" a track. All you need to do is STAY in PFFX mode and you can either gradually mix the rest of the way out, or you can cut out whenever you like. If you no longer want the prolonged echo/reverb, you can dry them out using the dedicated control of the FX. No problem. Just don't forget to stop the track before switching PFFX mode off. However, if you decide to go into PFFX mode half way into "mixing in", say, the volume being at around 60%, no matter how hard you smash the fader to the top end, the volume isn't going to get any louder than 60% - remember, the volume fader is stuck there. So, if you really want to pull this off, you need to come out of PFFX mode once in a while to increase the volume - something you might forget when you're going nuts with the FX and all. The video shows how to set up your channel fader but I only did this because I usually don't use my crossfader. After completing the video, I put some thought into this and found out that, though a bit more complicated, modifying the crossfader is a much more elegant option, and probably what those of you who scratch really miss about set-top DJ mixers. I will write up a tutorial and post a link here later, but for those of you that customize your mappings, the following video should be pretty much self explanatory. Supplementary to Simulating post fader FX in Traktro Pro 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjBsZe3kxq8 |
| Verlene Geevarghese 24.10.2011 | |
| Hyo Auricchio 24.10.2011 | wow guess i didnt read far enough |
| Hyo Auricchio 24.10.2011 | how about you just find a sound card emulator the you could set inputs from your playing tracks and the outputs back into track as a "send/receive" then output the final audio through your sound card. like using this http://jackaudio.org/ |
| Bertie Metro 24.10.2011 | No problems! |
| Jina Cemer 24.10.2011 | cool thanks for the info, I will defo try it out some time this week. Might pm if i get stuck, if thats ok? I've not played out in years so dont believe i'll be getting any booking in the near future, but will test it for sure! I've had about 4 years off of djing so this digital stuff is all new to me! |
| Bertie Metro 24.10.2011 | Yes more or less, jack can accept audio input, it's a bit cryptic at first but once you put it trough it's pace it's a great tool. Basically in jack you select your sound card, the latency/bitrate you want, the number of virtual channels, then launch the server (it's part of the app), and make the right connection in the routing panel. Or maybe you can do it with soundflower (tho i didn't try it) it should work the same, see what's best for you, don't forget to do extensive stress tests if you plan on playing out with this set up. |
| Jina Cemer 24.10.2011 | Whats jack audio btw? I have soundflower, is it the same kind of thing? |
| Jina Cemer 24.10.2011 |
Originally Posted by oneapemob
And i have a mac book pro so should be powerful enough... |
| Bertie Metro 24.10.2011 | I believe it's quite easy to find a coupon for ableton live lite (or whatever the name is of live's le version), and the investment is quite sound i believe, the downside being that you'll have three pieces of stuff to make work for you (live, traktor, and jack) as opposed to only one, but it's the price to pay to get these options. If your computer can handle it... Also you can output traktor midi clock to live, so you'll always get timed fx ( like delays and stuff). Plus this way you can use live's eq (so you can set the frequency bands and whatnot to what suites you best). Aaannnd it's an option you can try right now, download live's demo ( i believe only saving is disabled), jack audio (which is free) and try it to see if it's really an option for you. |
| Jina Cemer 24.10.2011 | I'd need help de-mapping and mapping though lol. New to all this stuff, im used to 2 turntables and a mixer! |
| Jina Cemer 25.10.2011 |
Originally Posted by oneapemob
|
| Jina Cemer 25.10.2011 | I sold my djm im afraid. I have a mac book pro, mixtrack pro, ive also got an edirol soundcard that I used with logic and ableton before I got my mixtrack. In terms of spending money, ive got a bit would prefer to keep it cheap as possible. It's true i should just get used to the effects in traktor, I've hardly had a play with it yet. Was just a bit gutted when i couldnt slam the reverb and delays! Thanks for all the help so far. |
| Brunilda Kora 25.10.2011 | ^^^That's the dream right thar. But with control vinyl! |
| Verlene Geevarghese 25.10.2011 | Wow, I didn't even believe about that. Assuming you have the bits you need, and aren't afraid to do some work getting it set up (it really isn't that bad), it's definitely a way to go! |
| Bertie Metro 25.10.2011 | If you want to keep it internal, and don't mind not using scratch/vinylcontrol/cdcontrol, and you have acces to ableton live (and a mildly powerful laptop), there is a way ( and a legal one at that! ). You need jack audio, in traktor select external mixing, route your channels to jack audio server, in live configure jack audio as input, create 2/4 audio channels, select the inputs according to your traktor, select you mixtrack pro as output master in ableton. Create some send fx channels in live, de-map your line faders from traktor, and map them to live's channels, BOOOM, post fader fx (also map your cue listen to the cue option in live, and of course de-map the traktor cross fader and map live's one) |
| Verlene Geevarghese 25.10.2011 | I suggested the SC6k because it would give you platter control and is RELATIVELY inexpensive (but cheap by no means). Nothing channel specific for me either. It's master only, UNLESS, I decided to use the T1 as an external controller and the Zero's soundcard to handle the audio, which kind of defeats the purpose of the controller. It's why I won't do it often, just when I feel like having post fader effects . I did this previously with my DJM-400 and fasttrack pro on occasion as well. |
| Cliff Lohman 25.10.2011 |
Originally Posted by geminimech
plenty of good solutions out there but i guess depends on the $ situation.. whats the point of having a full midi controller + a full external mixer? Wouldnt it be best to just go with a hybrid-mixer like denon's 1700 + then adding a kontrol x1? anyways, i believe we may have effectively gone 5-6x over original posters budget to achieve post-fader fx lol y dont u tell us how much $ ur willing to spend on more gear , etc and im sure ull get some creative responses.. @gemini - im curious - but how would u get channel-level efx out of ur t1 with basically only a master output? Or does the t1 have more advanced routing ins/outs than im believeing? I know I couldnt achieve this when I tried to do it with a kontrol s4 + a djm700 a few months ago.. best I could do was get the master out of the kontrol s4 to go thru the djm700's efx but couldnt limit it to a single channel.. i may just have no idea what im doing tho. do u have software helping with the routing somehow? |
| Verlene Geevarghese 24.10.2011 | The short answer is yes, you can connect a mixtrack pro to an external mixer with post fader effects. I'll do this occasionally with my T1 and Zero 4. Maybe a better solution however would be a set up like Denon's DN-SC6000 and a DN-X600. Although more expensive than a mixtrack/external mixer (depending on the mixer), you only really need to buy one sc6k, as the controls are layered, and the x600 can be had for 5-600 bucks. |
| Cliff Lohman 24.10.2011 | not really sure if this would work as im not familiar with this type of setup or that controller in particular.. maybe others have went thru a midi controller's soundcard before but i was believeing something more along lines of NI's audio 4, etc. what does mixtrack pro have as far as in/outputs go? just a master output? If so, you could in theory run: - mixtrack master out into djm600 channel 1 - then use your mixtrack to mix your channels - and then use your djm600 to control master channel with post-fader efx on the master when using the djm600 on-board efx (not traktors efx). but that seems like a lot of work + gear to get MASTER channel post-fader efx (and in my above described scenario, ud be using the djm600's effects not traktors efx). Not sure how you'd get traktors effects out of the djm600 in the above described connection scenario. Others may have some better ideas but mine would be to stick out the traktor efx in pre-fader. it takes getting used to not being able to slam that channel fader down but u can get alot more out of traktor efx than u can with the djm600's post fader efx in my theoretic master efx connection scenario above. if u just bought the mixtrack, u can always return it and buy an NI audio 4 or 6 used and just keep using ur djm600 which may be ur best choice. I believe a friend bought one of those for $200 on ebay or something like that. |
| Jina Cemer 24.10.2011 |
Originally Posted by kevz718
Thanks for the answer... so could I just connect a mixer to my mixtrack pro? That way I can control traktor via the mixtrack, but do the mixing on the external mixer... |
| Cliff Lohman 24.10.2011 | right, ull need an external mixer if u want post-fader fx.. The only pioneer emulation mode I know of is for setting ur eqs to emulate pioneers (or the xone and maybe some others). Tho I believe that the vestax vci-100 djtt mapping had post fader-fx - any vci100 owners confirm this? if it did, I imagine it was done with some crazy mapping that basically kicked the delay freeze command on when your channel fader was at 0 or something like that. I dunno.. could be wrong about that - never used one. The general answer is that ull need an external mixer (+ a soundcard of course) if u want true post fader fx w/ traktor. |
| Jina Cemer 24.10.2011 | oh right not what i need really. damn. |
| Verlene Geevarghese 24.10.2011 | Equalizer emulation. They have this for the Nuo series, and Xone 4 band. |
| Jina Cemer 24.10.2011 | on wiki it says traktor as a djm 600 emulation mode, what that about? |
| Jina Cemer 24.10.2011 | cool thanks for the replies. So is the only answer to have an external mixer? maybe i shouldnt of sold my djm 600 |
| Glennis Cartin 24.10.2011 | Awwww. I was looking to do this too.... NI, can we have an update pretty please! |
| Nedra Fresneda 23.10.2011 | nope, you are missing the send/return I/O in traktor's audio setting window when it's set to internal. |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 23.10.2011 | not maybe using something like jack to do the audio routing with the effects in 'send' instead of 'insert' mode? |
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