The Advantages of SYNC There is a lot of people out there who look at the SYNC button as a negative aspect of DJing.
I always tell DJ's who are starting out to learn to beatmatch by ear. It's extremely important.
If you don't, the train wreck will rear it's ugly head and bite you in the ass. Not all tracks will SYNC and not all gigs will have SYNC.
Before I used SYNC I would find myself concentrating on beatmatching and using most of my brain to avoid a trainwreck. Even though you are great at beatmatching and you believe it's on time, your brain is still "listening" for drift and your hands are ready to spring into corrective mode.
Now that I use SYNC (I press it once to match the BPM and then pitch bend to find the best rhythm pocket), I find myself taking off my headphones with confidence and concentrating on the mix in the monitors. This let's me observe the crowd and fine tune my levels, frequencies, loops and effects without having to worry about drift so much.
Just my observation.
For those who still hate SYNC. The best analogy I could come up with is this:
"It's like a chef looking down on you for using a food processor instead of your knife."
> |
Shawn Vanhaitsma
02.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
That's not beatmatching; that's taking two tracks which are ALREADY at the same BPM and just nudging it into position. Any moron can do that lol.
Uhhh seriously dude..... hense the definitino of.. BEAT matching.. matching two BEATS together.
For many who mix EDM... please oh please tell me how you are going to.. in most cases, NOT have songs of the same BPM... |
Shawn Vanhaitsma
02.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
You guys should read the title of the post again.
Flogging a dead horse?
I have never heard anyone say "my mixes sound better with SYNC."
I figured out why. Because I don't have to waste my time paying attention to drifting. That is my new realization.
>
My opinion, if you are a standard DJ, and use DVS... why use Sync? You know why people hate sync? Because alot of us understand for whatever reason DJing is glorified.. as if.. standard A B mixing is some how difficult. For Vinyl it took time to learn, beat match, know your track placement based on the vinyl. etc. Now you sync two tracks together, overabuse the FX and voila you are a DJ.
The art of it comes from Reading the crowd, knowing your music, knowning the scene. The actual art of A B mixing? Lets not go overboard with our egos folks
Those using traktor for other things? Sure.. Sync away.. |
Doreen Schurle
02.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by SlvrDragon50
http://youtu.be/m96MbRMzdHQ?t=7m7s
He's beat matching pretty fast here. He mixes his sets live, doesn't use a setlist. Obviously for this demo he knew what he wanted to do, but I doubt he memorized the percentages.
That's not beatmatching; that's taking two tracks which are ALREADY at the same BPM and just nudging it into position. Any moron can do that lol. |
Gaynell Rydberg
02.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
No one (not even Armin ) can beatmatch in 5 seconds. Armin is moving a slider till the digital readout matches a BPM and a percentage which he's memorized by practicing his set hundreds of times in his studio.
>
http://youtu.be/m96MbRMzdHQ?t=7m7s
He's beat matching pretty fast here. He mixes his sets live, doesn't use a setlist. Obviously for this demo he knew what he wanted to do, but I doubt he memorized the percentages. |
Rolanda Clodfelder
02.03.2013 |
Wouldn't that cause stress on the drive? Like - wouldn't you be better off pushing the record faster over the slipmat + using the pitch rather than that?
Not on a direct drive motor it won't, much handier than using the pitch fader to repitch if you already have the right BPM locked down on the fader and just need to sync it.
With regards to sync, use it or not, who cares. Friends of mine I tried to tech the basics of mixing didn't realize and didn't notice that they were train wrecking while crossfading between a 130bpm track and a 140bpm track - A bad set will still sound bad IMHO, it just wont sound "as bad" as it would have before sync. |
Latina Samon
01.03.2013 | I prefer to let tracks speak for themselves a lot of the time and find sync not only boring but time consuming considering a lot of beatgrids are off and need fixing. It is handy to flick on to match bpms sometimes then take off to line the tracks up better. |
Temple Cervelli
01.03.2013 | I started off my DJing life with and old pair of turntables, mixing all kinds of different records, I then moved to a pair of CDJs once I kind of found 'my sound', I stayed with CDJs and learnt to properly "beat match".
I then discovered Traktor, & then maschine, and THEN the 'sync' function... I then found what I had been waiting for all my life.
TIME. Time to be creative.. |
Jerica Salava
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
I can tell you from experience... a couple of minutes lol.
On one of these bloody things:
Note the complete lack of pitchfaders, crossfader, or anything even remotely sensible. Cueing and tempo control was done using buttons and knobs over on the right hand side, and the mix controlled by line faders on the left.
Saving this ^ photo to re-post when someone tries to convince me that my MIDI controller and/or software is outdated.
I use to rock parties with a double cassette player.
> |
Lashawn Maycock
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
Mixing visually using waveforms
Ah excellent Hope you're well mdc?
So, to all the attended masses; this sync malarky, what's it all about? I've heard it's some form of dark art, involving mysterious things such as witchcraft, conjury and sourcery? |
Margie Pavell
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by jprime
Question for those in the know...I see a lot of guys grabbing and twisting the center of the turntable, where the record fits onto (you know that little silver nubby)
Wouldn't that cause stress on the drive? Like - wouldn't you be better off pushing the record faster over the slipmat + using the pitch rather than that?
I've always wondered if that method ruins the turntable over time.
I only did that for small adjustments, usually to slow the record down just a bit. I always kept my tables cleaned and lubed, I could never tell if it hurt them. |
Doreen Schurle
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by backtothefront
Ooooh I love a mass debate!! So then, what are we discussing?
Mixing visually using waveforms |
Lashawn Maycock
01.03.2013 | Ooooh I love a mass debate!! So then, what are we discussing? |
Jeffrey Akinsanya
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Frank112916
Uh...not to be that guy but that's like saying "back in the day you used to just drop things and use your eyes to see if they would fall at the same rate rather than use math to calculate it."
Or - "back in the day we used to just sail boats by feeling, rather than use bernoulli's principle to intuit that by creating a curved surface allows for air to flow faster over the curved side, and thus create a zone of lower pressure, creating lift, and by using a keel to provide a counter force we could turn that lift into forward motion."
The fact of the matter is that people were always using these mathematical equations but were simply using heuristics to approximate the function. What separated the good from the bad was how well one could approximate the function while performing a multitude of other tasks. The same goes for beatmatching. You used your ears to mix because you didn't have a more efficient method. Now you do... Maybe we all should have just told Newton to fuck off.
you 2 points are not relevant.
sync or no sync - i advise the kids to learn the core skills - being able to hear the beats in the bars, phasing, etc etc
try different stuff like off beat mixing, mashing up different genres.. you can actually learn alot when tracks dont mix |
Carmelo Politowicz
01.03.2013 | Cheers! |
Breanne Penge
01.03.2013 | Good info, thanks fellas Always wondered about that.
so in my less than scientific and entirely anecdotal opinion
lulz |
Doreen Schurle
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by jprime
Yeah I've seen some guys do that.
Question for those in the know...I see a lot of guys grabbing and twisting the center of the turntable, where the record fits onto (you know that little silver nubby)
Wouldn't that cause stress on the drive? Like - wouldn't you be better off pushing the record faster over the slipmat + using the pitch rather than that?
I've always wondered if that method ruins the turntable over time.
Actually no, the way motors work, it's the opposite; the main thing which buggers up motors is slowing them down by applying force (ie, dragging your finger against the spinning platter). Twisting the spindle allows you to momentarily (and very slightly) speed up the track; trying to do that by manipulating the record or the slipmat is a recipe for disaster :P |
Carmelo Politowicz
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by jprime
Yeah I've seen some guys do that.
Question for those in the know...I see a lot of guys grabbing and twisting the center of the turntable, where the record fits onto (you know that little silver nubby)
Wouldn't that cause stress on the drive? Like - wouldn't you be better off pushing the record faster over the slipmat + using the pitch rather than that?
I've always wondered if that method ruins the turntable over time.
I've been using that trick since I got my 1200's which was in 1998, and I've never had a problem with the motor. In fact, even pulling the record back or spinning it forward to find the first down beat affects the platter a little bit, even with slip mats (and plastic sleeves under the slipmats in my case), so in my less than scientific and entirely anecdotal opinion, I don't believe spinning (or slowing down) via the spindle harms the motor. I could be wrong, but I've never had any problems. In fact, I recently ripped my vinyl copy of Sasha's "Xpander" to WAV and was impressed that after all these years, the recording (when analyzed by traktor) kept perfect time without any wobble or drift, so they have held up really well for me. |
Breanne Penge
01.03.2013 | Yeah I've seen some guys do that.
Question for those in the know...I see a lot of guys grabbing and twisting the center of the turntable, where the record fits onto (you know that little silver nubby)
Wouldn't that cause stress on the drive? Like - wouldn't you be better off pushing the record faster over the slipmat + using the pitch rather than that?
I've always wondered if that method ruins the turntable over time. |
Carmelo Politowicz
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by jprime
Ahh lol
Here I am imagining putting a record on the platter, then only using pitch controls + stop /start button to get it going :P
^^I wonder how long that would take though come to believe of it...
Years ago I was trainspotting hardcore on a well known (then) techno dj (for the life of me I can't remember his name, but he was legit). Anyway, he was a freaking master at pitchbending. He never touched the platter (except to let go of the record), and was constantly riding the pitch. As soon as he would switch over to the other cue he was right on the other decks pitch and never stopped moving it up and down until he was done with the mix. It was a thing of beauty. |
Breanne Penge
01.03.2013 | ^^Also used to interrogate prisoners for information extraction o_O
That's one crazy old setup Well done sir. |
Doreen Schurle
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by jprime
Ahh lol
Here I am imagining putting a record on the platter, then only using pitch controls + stop /start button to get it going :P
^^I wonder how long that would take though come to believe of it...
I can tell you from experience... a couple of minutes lol.
On one of these bloody things:
Note the complete lack of pitchfaders, crossfader, or anything even remotely sensible. Cueing and tempo control was done using buttons and knobs over on the right hand side, and the mix controlled by line faders on the left. |
Yu Santellano
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
It WAS a good feeling...
... when I was 14 :P
Now I just believe to myself, "damn... could've spent that time doing FX/samples/loops/EQing."
Well yeah it might have been, but I've had minimal practice at it myself :P Though I didnt mean everyone should do it in the normal course of their DJing constantly, I meant they should at least give it a go if they haven't before. Sorry. |
Breanne Penge
01.03.2013 | Ahh lol
Here I am imagining putting a record on the platter, then only using pitch controls + stop /start button to get it going :P
^^I wonder how long that would take though come to believe of it... |
Doreen Schurle
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
You cannot see the deleted posts made by a banned user that I can see im Moderation View.
Ahhhh, point taken :P Still, nice and civil now |
nayit ruiz jaramillo
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
Personally, I'd say at the moment we're having a healthy debate regarding the differences between doing it by ear and doing it visually, which is probably a safer direction for this thread anyway :P
You cannot see the deleted posts made by a banned user that I can see in Moderation View dude.
If it stays well mannered, it stays open. |
Doreen Schurle
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by jprime
No touching the platters...? What's that about? That's how I get em matched quickly...as I recall...that's what the slipmats are for.
However - given your new caveat of 'not touching platters' then I agree completely that beatmatching two records would take longer than 10 seconds.
He meant AFTER your 10 seconds were up lol. |
Breanne Penge
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
No more touching either platter.
No touching the platters...? What's that about? That's how I get em matched quickly...as I recall...that's what the slipmats are for.
However - given your new caveat of 'not touching platters' then I agree completely that beatmatching two records would take longer than 10 seconds. |
Doreen Schurle
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by CountenanT
Well, while you lot have been arguing, I've been practicing my manual beatmatching...and I'd just like to say that, if nothing else...try it for the sense of achievement. Because it's immense when you get it right.
It WAS a good feeling...
... when I was 14 :P
Now I just believe to myself, "damn... could've spent that time doing FX/samples/loops/EQing." |
Jetta Drenzek
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Frank112916
Seriously...why is being able to use legacy technology an argument for not embracing new technology? I doubt you go out and practice navigating with a sextant just to brush up on your celestial navigation skills in the event you might one day need to use them.
|
Yu Santellano
01.03.2013 | Well, while you lot have been arguing, I've been practicing my manual beatmatching...and I'd just like to say that, if nothing else...try it for the sense of achievement. Because it's immense when you get it right. |
Doreen Schurle
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Vandalus
Well that sucks. Basically everywhere here has at least CDJ-800's. In fact, most booths I've been in don't have a lot of space for a controller if you wanted one, so guys end up bringing their own handmade (presumably) contraptions to sit over/ontop of the mixer so they can have a place for the controller/laptop.
Tbh it's not far off the same here, just without the CDJs; you usually have a Formula Sound or Allen & Heath mixer screwed/nailed down to the middle of the desk, and JUST about enough space for 1000s (certainly no room for TTs), but you're expected to bring your own. Occasionally they'll have a rackmount Denon DN-4500, which - more often than not - is either nonfunctional or not wired up. Most resident DJs bring controllers with them, or in rare instances, CDJs.
Originally Posted by Vandalus
Okay, I'll give you that. I use traktor scratch at home with turntables (along with vinyl of course). because I don't use sync I never "beatgrid" my tracks. They are analyzed when they get imported, and if it's accurate, or not, I can care less. Plenty of times tracks are analyzed wrong, and by ear the phase meter will be off by some measure (most of the time its slight, sometimes its exactly 1/4 or 1/2 or even all the way over to the right, where it will jump from all the way right to all the way left). In any event, looking at the waveforms, you would never be able to tell in tracktor because they are adjacent to each other. It's not like serato where they are on top of each other (or side by side vertically) and you can see them being out of phase. With traktor, the only way the computer alerts you to being out of phase is the phase meter - which, as you've noted, can be wrong.
My point is, how do you know its wrong (when it's wrong)? You can tell because they sound out of phase. If you only did a visual mix, without ever putting headphones on to hear the cue, then you would have no idea that they were off until you started to bring the song in. At that point, you would hear them out of phase, make the proper adjustment, and move on.
So - how exactly do you mix solely by visual waveforms in tracktor when the beatgrids are off? I really would like to know how this is done, because in my experience, I don't believe it's possible in traktor. Traktor relies 100% on the grids to be properly gridded to work. If they are off, you need to use your ears to make the proper adjustment despite what the visual phase meter is telling you. Maybe I'm missing something in your explanation.
The trick is in learning to read the waveforms themselves; it depends on what sort of genre you're playing, but for most electronic music you learn to recognize the kicks and hi-hats; it's much easier in spectrum mode than the monochrome modes, and then if the grid is off, you have to estimate how FAR off the actual beat it is, and use the phase meter to correct for the difference. Try it out for yourself and see what I mean; it's not a guaranteed solution, but - like all things - with practice you get better and better at recognizing the patterns and your estimations get more and more accurate, until it's practically second nature.
The beauty of doing it this way - defaulting to sync on and then disabling it when you SEE something is wrong - is that overall, you spend less time fiddling about getting the tracks in time than if you started from a position of "sync off". But again, it all comes down to practice, practice, practice.
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
And once again (for the 100th time about this subject) I have been proved right.
Personally, I'd say at the moment we're having a healthy debate regarding the differences between doing it by ear and doing it visually, which is probably a safer direction for this thread anyway :P |
Tommy Thiner
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
Your ears will never lie when it comes to audio.
>
+1 |
Dino Hapgood
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
ok. you go do that.
Then jump into a booth with two CDJ 1000's and no headphones.
>
Ok you go drive around with your iphone with GPS then jump into a car with a Startac and a map...I bet itd take you a little longer to get to where you needed to go but the ride would be fairly similar...
Seriously...why is being able to use legacy technology an argument for not embracing new technology? I doubt you go out and practice navigating with a sextant just to brush up on your celestial navigation skills in the event you might one day need to use them. |
Carmelo Politowicz
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
And once again (for the 100th time about this subject) I have been proved right.
I'm not pissed. |
nayit ruiz jaramillo
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
Plus it ALWAYS ends up in a pissing match.
And once again (for the 100th time about this subject) I have been proved right. |
Carmelo Politowicz
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
I don't know how things are over there, but over here, clubs don't usually have any gear
of their own. If your laptop packs up, that's it; regardless of whether or not you know how to beatmatch by ear. It's not like you can just take out a couple of CDs and throw them into club-provided CDJs; there's nothing there.
Well that sucks. Basically everywhere here has at least CDJ-800's. In fact, most booths I've been in don't have a lot of space for a controller if you wanted one, so guys end up bringing their own handmade (presumably) contraptions to sit over/ontop of the mixer so they can have a place for the controller/laptop.
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
I did specifically say when tracks AREN'T beatgridded properly. If they are, it's a piece of piss mixing visually with sync; if Traktor screws up the analyze on your track, or the track is inconsistent, then the skill involved in COMPENSATING for that is significant.
Okay, I'll give you that. I use traktor scratch at home with turntables (along with vinyl of course). because I don't use sync I never "beatgrid" my tracks. They are analyzed when they get imported, and if it's accurate, or not, I can care less. Plenty of times tracks are analyzed wrong, and by ear the phase meter will be off by some measure (most of the time its slight, sometimes its exactly 1/4 or 1/2 or even all the way over to the right, where it will jump from all the way right to all the way left). In any event, looking at the waveforms, you would never be able to tell in tracktor because they are adjacent to each other. It's not like serato where they are on top of each other (or side by side vertically) and you can see them being out of phase. With traktor, the only way the computer alerts you to being out of phase is the phase meter - which, as you've noted, can be wrong.
My point is, how do you know its wrong (when it's wrong)? You can tell because they sound out of phase. If you only did a visual mix, without ever putting headphones on to hear the cue, then you would have no idea that they were off until you started to bring the song in. At that point, you would hear them out of phase, make the proper adjustment, and move on.
So - how exactly do you mix solely by visual waveforms in tracktor when the beatgrids are off? I really would like to know how this is done, because in my experience, I don't believe it's possible in traktor. Traktor relies 100% on the grids to be properly gridded to work. If they are off, you need to use your ears to make the proper adjustment despite what the visual phase meter is telling you. Maybe I'm missing something in your explanation. |
Doreen Schurle
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
ok. you go do that.
Then jump into a booth with two CDJ 1000's and no headphones.
>
Well that would just be stupid... CDJs don't have proper waveform displays... |
Nedra Fresneda
01.03.2013 | If name calling happens again in this thread it's getting the lock. Keep it civilised peeps. |
Jerica Salava
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
Waveforms are facts, audio is interpretation, basically.
Different frequencies combine to create different effects; depending on the makeup of each track, blending two together could be as easy as pie, or ridiculously difficult based on that very premise. Waveforms, on the other hand, tend to be much more reliable as they don't interfere with each other... you see them in isolation and in certain circumstances, that makes them easier to analyze.
ok. you go do that.
Then jump into a booth with two CDJ 1000's and no headphones.
> |
Doreen Schurle
01.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
Holy crap. Your ears will never lie when it comes to audio. What are you saying ?
Your laptop video card could hiccup and you better not be glued to the waveforms.
The waveforms could be off and your dancefloor doesn't care. The audio better be correct.
>
Waveforms are facts, audio is interpretation, basically.
Different frequencies combine to create different effects; depending on the makeup of each track, blending two together could be as easy as pie, or ridiculously difficult based on that very premise. Waveforms, on the other hand, tend to be much more reliable as they don't interfere with each other... you see them in isolation and in certain circumstances, that makes them easier to analyze. |
