Can Sync hold a DJ back?

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Can Sync hold a DJ back?
Posted on: 22.04.2013 by Addie Engbrecht
I was originally going to post this in the other Sync thread that was started today, but out of respect for the OP, I thought it would be better if I just started my own thread. Hopefully the replies (if any) are just as friendly


Does anyone believe that Sync can seriously handcuff DJ's into being stuck in the same tempo range with all their music, or maybe just not being versatile enough to mix in different tempos, at a moments notice, at will, constantly throughout the evening ? or handcuff them from learning any other transitions, and just relying heavily on blending? If so, do you believe Sync does more harm than good to those DJ's who are just starting out?

I've kinda seen this trend in people who started w/ Sync and use Sync, and have been DJ'n anywhere from 3 years or less, so these questions are mostly directed at that crowd
Alphonso Deitchman
24.04.2013
What I do is not important, the fact still stands. If you are fine with preparing every individual track then it's not an issue.
Olin Easley
24.04.2013
Yeah, so? Do you not do any preparation whatsoever?
Alphonso Deitchman
24.04.2013
Originally Posted by DISaS73R
If you are importing the songs in Traktor anyway, you can just take ten seconds to check if the beatgrid is right.
That's the point, every song must be checked individually.
Meaghan Machold
24.04.2013
Originally Posted by Patch
The trouble is, you don't know which songs need manual gridding until you come to play them, and realise that they are out.

Just to re-iterate, I'm not against gridding/syncing.

Coming from an Ableton Live background, gridding is the most natural thing in the world. Beat sync'd effects rely completely on the grid (warp markers in Live). I'm assuming that Traktor has a master tempo for FX similar to Live?

Yea.. what? Do you just import songs randomly and not even play/test them before you play them in a club? That has nothing to do with technology... that has to do with not being prepared. I always play out every track fully before I add it to a potential playlist just to make sure I know it from start to end... and to make sure its grids are laid out correct.
Olin Easley
24.04.2013
Originally Posted by Morior
A minute, you need to get a faster PC
I'm talking about manual beatgridding and as mentioned, you hardly ever need to do it.

Originally Posted by Patch
The trouble is, you don't know which songs need manual gridding until you come to play them, and realise that they are out.
If you are importing the songs in Traktor anyway, you can just take ten seconds to check if the beatgrid is right.
Brunilda Kora
24.04.2013
The trouble is, you don't know which songs need manual gridding until you come to play them, and realise that they are out.

Just to re-iterate, I'm not against gridding/syncing.

Coming from an Ableton Live background, gridding is the most natural thing in the world. Beat sync'd effects rely completely on the grid (warp markers in Live). I'm assuming that Traktor has a master tempo for FX similar to Live?
Meaghan Machold
24.04.2013
Originally Posted by Morior
A minute, you need to get a faster PC

Yeah I cant understand why people trash Traktor grids, . There are some that it messes up usually because there is either a long section with an off beat that confuses the system and it puts the grid on the half bar, or the tempo drifts in the track. but except for a small percentage of virtually all sequenced music the beat grids are fine and spending time manually beatgridding them seems like a pure waste and maybe even some form of rage against the machine for having the temerity to automatically set a beat grid.
This. There seems to be some type of unwillingness to trust technology. Maybe 3-4% of all songs have improper beat grids. If its incorrect, all u do is reset it and do it manually. But doing them ALL manually seems like a waste.
Alphonso Deitchman
24.04.2013
Every sync system relies on accurate beatgrids, so I don't believe beatmatching will be disappearing even if sync becomes commonplace.
Vaughn Malbon
24.04.2013
Originally Posted by DISaS73R
You do know that beatgridding a song takes like a minute tops, don't you?
A minute, you need to get a faster PC

Yeah I cant understand why people trash Traktor grids, . There are some that it messes up usually because there is either a long section with an off beat that confuses the system and it puts the grid on the half bar, or the tempo drifts in the track. but except for a small percentage of virtually all sequenced music the beat grids are fine and spending time manually beatgridding them seems like a pure waste and maybe even some form of rage against the machine for having the temerity to automatically set a beat grid.
Vaughn Malbon
24.04.2013
The gas thing is that with the advent of sync now on the Pioneer CDJ's (Which will become the industry standard, whatever that means) then I dont believe we will be having these threads in 5 years time as Beatmatching will fortunatly or unfortunatly have become a thing of the past.
Lilliana Perris
24.04.2013
I choose the tracks I want to play for the event and beat grid them all manually. Takes time...but once its done, its done.

I lay out my first 4 cues...so I can jump to certain parts of the track that makes sense.
The last 4 I lay down at certain samples I like. Then use that with Fluxmode.
Add Keycodes and I am good to go.

I would rather NOT rely on Traktor fully. It also helps me choose the right songs etc.
Makes me listen to them a few times and that REALLY helps me when I mix the set at the event.
Shakita Salyers
24.04.2013
Hi,

In my opinion sync does not prevent the DJ from mixing up the tempo throughout a set. You can easily use the tempo slider to vary the speed of your set as you go along. It also does not force you to make long blends and is actually useful for quick cuts. Sync really comes in handy when you want to mix 3 or 4 tracks using seperate elements from each.

With regards to using sync when just starting out - I find that having the basics of beat matching automatically helps with phrase matching and knowing when to mix in/ mix out etc. So I would suggest learning the basics of beatmatching anyway, you could also do this with traktor by adjusting the tempo slider (no need to buy CDJs).
Ashanti Andreacchio
24.04.2013
Traktor gets beatgriding right most of the time but I've noticed that a lot of house songs that only have a beat and of beat bass in the intro get the down beat wrong. that usealy only requiers me to press the x2 make a new grid marker on the drum beat delete to one on the bass press /2 and song is ready.
Olin Easley
24.04.2013
You do know that beatgridding a song takes like a minute tops, don't you?
Ninfa Mazariegos
23.04.2013
A few years ago I let a friend play around on my herc controller using traktor and soon after convinced him to buy his own controller. A few months later I noticed it was damn near impossible for him to mix into a song unless it was correctly beatgridded. I told him that he needed to learn to beatmatch and that he needed to stop using the sync button so he could mix no matter the beatgrid if he wanted to be serious about djing. He didn't want to hear it. Wanted no part of it. The next time he came over I offered to make him a custom controller mapping so he could use something better than the factory mapping. I mapped it, but what what I didn't tell him is that I didn't include a sync button! Muah ha ha ha!
He eventually learned to map his controller, but now we mix back and forth every couple of songs for hours on end with everything from country to drumstep a few evening s a week at our residency. From constantly having to beatmatch the other's tune and correcting for tempo changes, our skills have increased dramatically. Mixing a live drummer or a song with changing tempos is no longer much of an issue. I just feel overall more creative when I don't have to depend on a beatgrid.
Sonja Roybal
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by djmetalgear
now THAT is something that is a feat worthy of praise. i straight up cant do that. ill always need a laptop. i dont care. but i def appreciate and envy people who can beatmatch straight up on vinyl. its a beautiful thing, and very hard. watch some Boiler Room sets, and you see guys straight up sweating all over their decks. its def hard, and amazing to watch.
If you can't just grab records out of a bag and beatmatch them, you can't beatmatch. Straight up.

I do both from time to time, but play in a more traditional way the majority of time. When I'm beatmatching, I'm much more engaged and in a vibe. When you get that feeling, you play better. There's nothing more satisfying than beatmatching and pulling off a beautiful mix. It's a great feeling. When I sync, I can't find a flow and usually get bored. If I'm not into it, I sure as hell don't expect anybody else to be.

In drum and bass, some records are really hard to match. A lot of intros will have 1 hat on the kick for 48 bars, then a drop. Sometimes that hat is on the last snare instead of the first kick. Sometimes it's just a pad in the intro and you have to find the downbeat with no drums. Pulling off great mixes with those tunes can't be beat. You have to really know your music.
Julissa Serrone
23.04.2013
Happens in every thread like this.......

.......and they still don't get it.
Delila Vandommelen
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Nicky H
You are WAVJs- at best.
Fixed that for you
Janyce Henningson
23.04.2013
lol fair play
Olin Easley
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Nicky H
DJ's need discs - the clue is in the name.

You are MP3J's - at best.

Maybe controllerists, or button monkey's if you prefer.
Janyce Henningson
23.04.2013
DJ's need discs - the clue is in the name.

You are MP3J's - at best.

Maybe controllerists, or button monkey's if you prefer.
Margie Pavell
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
Oh_For_Fucks_Sake.

1033755330_1364654221.jpg
x2
Caleb Demillo
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
Oh_For_Fucks_Sake.

1033755330_1364654221.jpg
You LOVE it Karlos
nayit ruiz jaramillo
23.04.2013
Oh_For_Fucks_Sake.

1033755330_1364654221.jpg
Caleb Demillo
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Frank112916
Tell that to Madeon. While I wouldn't consider him a DJ in the traditional sense he is still a DJ. If you believe you learn phrasing, song structure, and harmonic mixing from beat matching and it can't be learned any other way then I implore you to explain the many people who aren't djs who understand these concepts... Avicii definitely was wrong when he said old school DJs use reading the crowd as a feeble attempt at staying relevant. What he should have said is this whole sync debate is a feeble attempt at old school DJs trying to stay relevant.

learning to make two tracks play at the same speed and that the snares line up properly is a purely mechanical activity. Knowing how to beatmatch is certainly a worthwhile skill to have, but it doesn't mean you can't be a good DJ if you don't. I believe it would behoove any student of the art form to learn how to do it, just like airplane pilots still learn to navigate with charts even though they have GPS and radar, but I personally don't give a fuck how they do it as long as they get me to my destination in one piece and the plane doesn't spiral into the ground. Same goes for any DJ.
Who said it can't be learned any other way? Good grief. And choosing an exceptional musician/producer such as Madeon as an example to represent the majority of new DJ's is really irrelevant.

In any craft in life, you will gain more in the end by understanding things from the beginning and taking your time in learning the basics. That applies to most anything.
Meaghan Machold
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Frank112916
Tell that to Madeon. While I wouldn't consider him a DJ in the traditional sense he is still a DJ. If you believe you learn phrasing, song structure, and harmonic mixing from beat matching and it can't be learned any other way then I implore you to explain the many people who aren't djs who understand these concepts... Avicii definitely was wrong when he said old school DJs use reading the crowd as a feeble attempt at staying relevant. What he should have said is this whole sync debate is a feeble attempt at old school DJs trying to stay relevant.

learning to make two tracks play at the same speed and that the snares line up properly is a purely mechanical activity. Knowing how to beatmatch is certainly a worthwhile skill to have, but it doesn't mean you can't be a good DJ if you don't. I believe it would behoove any student of the art form to learn how to do it, just like airplane pilots still learn to navigate with charts even though they have GPS and radar, but I personally don't give a fuck how they do it as long as they get me to my destination in one piece and the plane doesn't spiral into the ground. Same goes for any DJ.

Meaghan Machold
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Ryan Ruel
I forced myself to learn straight up vinyl because I wanted to, and got quite good at it. To be honest if I were to go home right now and try to throw down an hour on vinyl, it wouldn't be perfect... you really need to practice it regularly.

It sounds like you did the right thing and have learned it enough for your style.

My point was simply pointing out the folks who say things like "Yeah, I lined up beats on CDJ-2000's once, it was so easy", who state that they know how to beat match and that it's "easy" are deluded.
now THAT is something that is a feat worthy of praise. i straight up cant do that. ill always need a laptop. i dont care. but i def appreciate and envy people who can beatmatch straight up on vinyl. its a beautiful thing, and very hard. watch some Boiler Room sets, and you see guys straight up sweating all over their decks. its def hard, and amazing to watch.
Dino Hapgood
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Ryan Ruel
Learning to beatmatch is tedious and time consuming, but it forces you to do something that is so simple and overlooked: It force your to LISTEN.

And not just "I like this track" listen, it forces you to learn to understand the structure of the music. During this period of learning, the other facets of DJ'ing like phrasing, harmonic mixing, and most importantly timing will begin to fall into place on their own.

And for the digital sync users who state they learned to beatmatch in a week, I don't believe so. Try using actual vinyl on decks, and not only beatmatch tracks initially, but keep them beat locked without any audible pitch corrections (aka, riding the pitch). It'll take you a LOT longer than a week to master that, and be able to do it continuously for hours on end.

And then you need to train your ear to be able to do all of this on other systems, PA's and club systems. That's a whole new level of learning as well.

Walk before you run.
Tell that to Madeon. While I wouldn't consider him a DJ in the traditional sense he is still a DJ. If you believe you learn phrasing, song structure, and harmonic mixing from beat matching and it can't be learned any other way then I implore you to explain the many people who aren't djs who understand these concepts... Avicii definitely was wrong when he said old school DJs use reading the crowd as a feeble attempt at staying relevant. What he should have said is this whole sync debate is a feeble attempt at old school DJs trying to stay relevant.

learning to make two tracks play at the same speed and that the snares line up properly is a purely mechanical activity. Knowing how to beatmatch is certainly a worthwhile skill to have, but it doesn't mean you can't be a good DJ if you don't. I believe it would behoove any student of the art form to learn how to do it, just like airplane pilots still learn to navigate with charts even though they have GPS and radar, but I personally don't give a fuck how they do it as long as they get me to my destination in one piece and the plane doesn't spiral into the ground. Same goes for any DJ.
Delila Vandommelen
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Ryan Ruel
Learning to beatmatch is tedious and time consuming, but it forces you to do something that is so simple and overlooked: It force your to LISTEN.

And not just "I like this track" listen, it forces you to learn to understand the structure of the music. During this period of learning, the other facets of DJ'ing like phrasing, harmonic mixing, and most importantly timing will begin to fall into place on their own.
Thank you. Although you do have to work consciously on these other aspects somewhat, otherwise it can still elude you after a while to some extent.
Caleb Demillo
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by djmetalgear
no. i cant do that on vinyl. ill admit, ive never DJed off vinyl records. ive used vinyl with serato... but not vinyl on its own.

mind you, I had a full year and a half to 2 years of DJing with some sync help until i felt comfortable that i didnt need it. so one week i practiced how to beatmatch without it... and guess what... it wasnt that hard... because I ALREADY knew song struction. i already knew how to drop songs on the down beat. i already knew everything else... so picking up beatmatching was almost natural.

its like you guys believe people who use sync are mindless dolts who just hit play and totally dont take into account phrasing and structures and breakdowns of songs.

but back to what you mentioned. no, i never DJed off a vinyl itself... but thats not my style. why do i have to learn that if i never plan on DJing strictly on vinyl? i dont.
I forced myself to learn straight up vinyl because I wanted to, and got quite good at it. To be honest if I were to go home right now and try to throw down an hour on vinyl, it wouldn't be perfect... you really need to practice it regularly.

It sounds like you did the right thing and have learned it enough for your style.

My point was simply pointing out the folks who say things like "Yeah, I lined up beats on CDJ-2000's once, it was so easy", who state that they know how to beat match and that it's "easy" are deluded.
Meaghan Machold
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Ryan Ruel
Learning to beatmatch is tedious and time consuming, but it forces you to do something that is so simple and overlooked: It force your to LISTEN.

And not just "I like this track" listen, it forces you to learn to understand the structure of the music. During this period of learning, the other facets of DJ'ing like phrasing, harmonic mixing, and most importantly timing will begin to fall into place on their own.

And for the digital sync users who state they learned to beatmatch in a week, I don't believe so. Try using actual vinyl on decks, and not only beatmatch tracks initially, but keep them beat locked without any audible pitch corrections (aka, riding the pitch). It'll take you a LOT longer than a week to master that, and be able to do it continuously for hours on end.

And then you need to train your ear to be able to do all of this on other systems, PA's and club systems. That's a whole new level of learning as well.

Walk before you run.

no. i cant do that on vinyl. ill admit, ive never DJed off vinyl records. ive used vinyl with serato... but not vinyl on its own.

mind you, I had a full year and a half to 2 years of DJing with some sync help until i felt comfortable that i didnt need it. so one week i practiced how to beatmatch without it... and guess what... it wasnt that hard... because I ALREADY knew song struction. i already knew how to drop songs on the down beat. i already knew everything else... so picking up beatmatching was almost natural.

its like you guys believe people who use sync are mindless dolts who just hit play and totally dont take into account phrasing and structures and breakdowns of songs.

but back to what you mentioned. no, i never DJed off a vinyl itself... but thats not my style. why do i have to learn that if i never plan on DJing strictly on vinyl? i dont.
Caleb Demillo
23.04.2013
Enough with the hair pulling. This is supposed to be fun
Anissa Perusek
23.04.2013
Can we just start a "do you beatgrid your tracks" thread already?
Meaghan Machold
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by Patch
Nothing you say carries any weight with me, mate.

Because you are a liar. You can't nit-pick parts of your posts to tell the truth in, and expect anyone to believe you are credible.
i mean idk you personally, so i couldnt care less if you believe me, or if you believe im a liar. but its just sad to see people so blinded and angry at a simple function. if u hate it, dont use it. its that simple.

did OG knitters hate on the foot-pedal driven sewing machine back in the day the same way we do about DJing? lol. so sad.
Caleb Demillo
23.04.2013
Learning to beatmatch is tedious and time consuming, but it forces you to do something that is so simple and overlooked: It force your to LISTEN.

And not just "I like this track" listen, it forces you to learn to understand the structure of the music. During this period of learning, the other facets of DJ'ing like phrasing, harmonic mixing, and most importantly timing will begin to fall into place on their own.

And for the digital sync users who state they learned to beatmatch in a week, I don't believe so. Try using actual vinyl on decks, and not only beatmatch tracks initially, but keep them beat locked without any audible pitch corrections (aka, riding the pitch). It'll take you a LOT longer than a week to master that, and be able to do it continuously for hours on end.

And then you need to train your ear to be able to do all of this on other systems, PA's and club systems. That's a whole new level of learning as well.

Walk before you run.
Qiana Castellucci
23.04.2013
Originally Posted by djmetalgear
of course im being very general/broad and im lumping in really talented old school DJs. like i said, i know tons of vinyl DJs who have amazing skill and talent. but maybe now you realize how dumb it sounds when u generalize a whole group of DJs that use Sync as lazy and useless.
I seems like you're the only one doing that, I dont believe a single other person in this thread (of others) has ever said that. What HAS been said is that its important to know the foundations of your craft and to a certain extent its history - I'm still stunned at the lack of musical knowledge of some of the posters here - but most beatmatchers (who use Traktor, obviously) have stated that at certain times and for various reasons, they will use sync. Can those who only know how to sync on the button offer up the inverse?
nayit ruiz jaramillo
23.04.2013
Cool it y'all.
Brunilda Kora
24.04.2013
Nothing you say carries any weight with me, mate.

Because you are a liar. You can't nit-pick parts of your posts to tell the truth in, and expect anyone to believe you are credible.
Meaghan Machold
24.04.2013
Originally Posted by Patch
Lies.
ur really missing the point of my argument by nitpicking little things.

not everyone who uses sync is lazy and useless, just like how not all old school DJs just fade A to B.
Brunilda Kora
24.04.2013
Originally Posted by djmetalgear
it took me less than a week to figure it out
Lies.

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