New controllers, brand

Honestly dude I believe nem0nic is one of the guys guaranteed to more about this stuff than you and almost certainly has a more educated view on how the business of DJ gear works.

No, you don't. The APC40 uses encoders with LED rings just fine and needs no middleware. The encoders on the APC40 just send an absolute message instead of relative. This is easily done in the device firmware. If you wanted to be especially crafty, you could put in a SYSEX message or "magic keypress" to switch the encoder behavior over from absolute to relative.

You're kidding, right? Other than shift/cue/play etc I don't see anyone mixing up any of the controls there.

No, what I'm asking here is what function did toontown have in mind when he put them there.

If this is a utility controller with no "real" purpose, then that's as good a setup as any other. But this thread is about someone who wants to sell controllers retail. And if the controller doesn't fit some kind of use case, it doesn't have much of a chance of actually selling.

The point of designing an effective controller is to lay it out in such a way that users will see it and immediately know what it's for (even if different people see very different purposes). So let's drill down a bit.

In Live, I see an controller that handles clip triggering and effects. The buttons and knobs are separate from each other, and clip triggering and effects are 2 distinct functions - so that makes sense. But while there are 2 groups of eight buttons, there aren't any buttons associated with those knobs. So as a Live user, I'm either forced to use clip trigger buttons to work effects, or I need to map the effects buttons to another controller. Each solution is awkward, because it screws with your workflow.

The same problem exists for Traktor. I can see me using the button section for either 4 groups of 8 cues (for Deck A-D), or cues and auto loops for 2 decks. But again, the knobs are a problem. There's no clear use for them, because they're missing something. You could attempt to solve this by making them push encoders, but that isn't a satisfying solution for everyone, and they're more expensive. And if I were to use the entire controller to control all 4 effects in Traktor, the association between he effect parameter and the button is harder to make.

You might be believeing "this is crazy - I just want a bunch of knobs and buttons to map how I want.". That's normal, but when it comes to making a buy decision it's not how most people really work. If it was, you'd see everyone using the APC40 mapped into Traktor. The APC40 is a bunch of buttons and knobs, is well built, and has a TON of MIDI feedback. But if you take a look at ANY mapping into Traktor and it's a hot mess. I see people with stickers or tape all over just to tell them where shit is. If any OTHER user came up to that APC40 and it wasn't labeled, they wouldn't know how to make it work without a lot of trial and error.

A good controller layout will be intuitive even if it isn't labeled. You'll be able to look at it and understand what's supposed to be happening. It will IMPLY a workflow.

THAT was the point of asking what the knobs are for.

Honestly dude I believe nem0nic is one of the guys guaranteed to more about this stuff than you and almost certainly has a more educated view on how the business of DJ gear works.

Right. I agree completely. So where are the required buttons for effect control? Are they the buttons below the knobs? If so, why disassociate the 2 groups? That makes the controller less intuitive.


There are functional groups that imply a workflow. For example, if I have a fader and 3 unlabeled pots above it, are you really saying that most users won't decide to map those pots to EQs HI/MID/LOW top to bottom? How about if there is a linear fader next to a platter. If the fader isn't labeled PITCH, do you really believe any user will be confused about it's implied functionality? Think they'll try mapping that big platter to the volume?

Probably not. We work with these functional groups every day. There are unwritten rules for product design that apply to ALL classes of product. Good design means that the product should be intuitive.


I'm not saying it's easy. Quite the opposite. And if you start off with bad design, your job is that much harder.


You have no idea what you're talking about here. First of all, they're not a manufacturer. They rebadge stuff from ODMs (mostly Hanpin) and sell it. Second of all, they're not fast growing (mostly because their distribution model is terrible).


Even if that's the intended goal, good design is a must or your sales will be severely limited.


But again, the problem isn't that the functions aren't known. It's a matter of workflow. If I have to spread a functional group out, that breaks up the workflow and makes things harder to use. Most of the time, this isn't even something you believe about directly - you just realize that using thing X is uncomfortable or distracting. When you experience this, most of the time it can be attributed to a design flaw.


DJTT doesn't make VCI-100s.


And the MIDI Fighter has a very clear and proven workflow. A 4 x 4 grid of buttons used to "perform" sounds has been used since 1988 (where it appeared on the original MPC60).

If the S4 didn't have a single label on it, we'd all be lost.

true... i believe i just got a bit carried away with that first mockup image fro @ToOntown as i wanted to buy it

ah cool.... then my comments were pretty much redundant

that would be an almost perfect layout of pots+faders+encoders and pads for me anyway very flexible...

ofc it's back to the more traditional dj controller type layout (sort of) but i reckon that'd be pretty popular...