Traditional House
Progressive House
Tech House
Techno
Electro House
Trance
Electronica

United States
United Kingdom
Germany
Italy
France
Spain
Netherlands

Redlining - how bad is it?

Home :: General Discussion :: Redlining - how bad is it?Reply

Redlining - how bad is it? Posted on: 12.04.2013 by Olin Easley In addition to common sense, I've read multiple times that redlining is generally bad for the sound system and in the best case scenario you'll end up with worse sound quality. However, I keep seeing popular DJs hit the reds and noone does anything about it. Can anyone clarify what the actual effects of redlining are?
Rolanda Clodfelder 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by tekki I redline like crazy, coz everyone knows redder is faster and better!
Rolanda Clodfelder 19.04.2013	Originally Posted by mdcdesign Now that IS retro :P Only downside to the Formula Sound stuff (the FSM and PM ranges anyway) is that there aren't any per-channel VU meters. The PM series has a clipping indicator though which is something at least. Although If I remember rightly there was a button to switch between Cue and Master on the VU, been a long time since I played on one. Should you really need to know what the precise gain is via individual VU per channel is for DJ'ing purposes ? IMHO thats what ears are for. Like you said there is a clip indicator per channel. Thats the only real signal you should need that its running in the rough and it honestly took ALOT to get it to the point of clipping a channel.
Doreen Schurle 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by deevey PM series ... it was back 15+ years ago. Still probably one of the best sounding mixers out there and being modular it was a dream if any work needed to be done - even powered on you could replace an entire channel. Now that IS retro :P Only downside to the Formula Sound stuff (the FSM and PM ranges anyway) is that there aren't any per-channel VU meters. The PM series has a clipping indicator though which is something at least.
Rolanda Clodfelder 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by mdcdesign Yeah, on their FF series. PM series ... it was back 15+ years ago. Still probably one of the best sounding mixers out there and being modular it was a dream if any work needed to be done - even powered on you could replace an entire channel.
Doreen Schurle 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by deevey Formula Sound used Knobs like this with pop off caps... Yeah, on their FF series. Very cheeky :P Although still leaves the full range of travel, so at least you're not screwing over people with low-level outputs.
Rolanda Clodfelder 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by makar1 How did you manage this? Did those gain pots have symmetrical shafts? Formula Sound used Knobs like this with pop off caps...
Qiana Castellucci 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by makar1 Your "dream mixer" has been on the market for 7 years. Thats what i was believeing. Having a fader for the master rather than a knob seems to be the exception rather than the rule with most quality mixers (Denon, Pioneer, Vestax etc etc).
Alphonso Deitchman 17.04.2013	Originally Posted by deevey I took off off the gain caps from the house mixer and twirled them forwards so DJ's would be running tracks @ 12 o' clock and believe they were @ 3 o' clock cranking it. None ever Realized this was the case and it kept things much safer. How did you manage this? Did those gain pots have symmetrical shafts?
Alphonso Deitchman 17.04.2013	Originally Posted by mdcdesign That's because it's stupidly bloody easy to accidentally hit the master fader when you're aiming for the 4th channel fader. Made that mistake a few times toevening . What I wouldn't give for a house mixer with a master knob. Your "dream mixer" has been on the market for 7 years.
Debrah Parcels 01.10.2013	What if for example on the djm pioneer mixer only the channel volumes are clipping and the master volume is still very much green ? will this still damage the speakers ?
Dione Haimes 18.04.2013	when you go for a drink/pee, talk a walk through the dancefloor, my sat evening resident the booth is a mile away from the dancefloor and the bar is at the other side so ive usually got to rely on levels from the mixer and amps (they're in the booth), so earplugs out for a few seconds, walk to the bar, order drink, check its not too loud, earplugs back in. everybodys happy, then the guy on after me clears the floor by cranking it far too loud >.>
Delila Vandommelen 18.04.2013	I only recently noticed the headphone level knob on Xones goes to 11 Also, silly pun that came to mind by reading another thread - headliner/redliner. (funny because it's true)
Rolanda Clodfelder 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by tekki I redline like crazy, coz everyone knows redder is faster and better!
Random X 18.04.2013	I redline like crazy, coz everyone knows redder is faster and better!
Alphonso Deitchman 19.04.2013	VU meters help a lot for EQing as well as balancing two tracks. Visual feedback is useful in a noisy environment.
Rolanda Clodfelder 19.04.2013	Originally Posted by mdcdesign Now that IS retro :P Only downside to the Formula Sound stuff (the FSM and PM ranges anyway) is that there aren't any per-channel VU meters. The PM series has a clipping indicator though which is something at least. Although If I remember rightly there was a button to switch between Cue and Master on the VU, been a long time since I played on one. Should you really need to know what the precise gain is via individual VU per channel is for DJ'ing purposes ? IMHO thats what ears are for. Like you said there is a clip indicator per channel. Thats the only real signal you should need that its running in the rough and it honestly took ALOT to get it to the point of clipping a channel.
Doreen Schurle 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by deevey PM series ... it was back 15+ years ago. Still probably one of the best sounding mixers out there and being modular it was a dream if any work needed to be done - even powered on you could replace an entire channel. Now that IS retro :P Only downside to the Formula Sound stuff (the FSM and PM ranges anyway) is that there aren't any per-channel VU meters. The PM series has a clipping indicator though which is something at least.
Rolanda Clodfelder 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by mdcdesign Yeah, on their FF series. PM series ... it was back 15+ years ago. Still probably one of the best sounding mixers out there and being modular it was a dream if any work needed to be done - even powered on you could replace an entire channel.
Doreen Schurle 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by deevey Formula Sound used Knobs like this with pop off caps... Yeah, on their FF series. Very cheeky :P Although still leaves the full range of travel, so at least you're not screwing over people with low-level outputs.
Rolanda Clodfelder 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by makar1 How did you manage this? Did those gain pots have symmetrical shafts? Formula Sound used Knobs like this with pop off caps...
Qiana Castellucci 18.04.2013	Originally Posted by makar1 Your "dream mixer" has been on the market for 7 years. Thats what i was believeing. Having a fader for the master rather than a knob seems to be the exception rather than the rule with most quality mixers (Denon, Pioneer, Vestax etc etc).
Alphonso Deitchman 17.04.2013	Originally Posted by deevey I took off off the gain caps from the house mixer and twirled them forwards so DJ's would be running tracks @ 12 o' clock and believe they were @ 3 o' clock cranking it. None ever Realized this was the case and it kept things much safer. How did you manage this? Did those gain pots have symmetrical shafts?
Latoria Kavulich 17.04.2013	sneaky!
Rolanda Clodfelder 17.04.2013	I took off off the gain caps from the house mixer and twirled them forwards so DJ's would be running tracks @ 12 o' clock and believe they were @ 3 o' clock cranking it. None ever Realized this was the case and it kept things much safer.
Alphonso Deitchman 17.04.2013	Originally Posted by mdcdesign That's because it's stupidly bloody easy to accidentally hit the master fader when you're aiming for the 4th channel fader. Made that mistake a few times toevening . What I wouldn't give for a house mixer with a master knob. Your "dream mixer" has been on the market for 7 years.
Latoria Kavulich 17.04.2013	it also has a master gain screw on the back panel that can be adjusted. old school styles, on my mixer you can change all that in the utility.
Doreen Schurle 17.04.2013	Originally Posted by Jester On our DJM600 we have drunk resistant clear tape across the master fader at about 3/4 volume. That's because it's stupidly bloody easy to accidentally hit the master fader when you're aiming for the 4th channel fader. Made that mistake a few times toevening . What I wouldn't give for a house mixer with a master knob.
Latoria Kavulich 17.04.2013	On our DJM600 we have drunk resistant clear tape across the master fader at about 3/4 volume.
Rolanda Clodfelder 17.04.2013	In honestly have and probably will again redline mixers, not a constant red line mind you, but flashing into the red. Example: In a regular Saturday evening residency I had the Bar Manager refused to turn the Amp up, leaving me with no option but to turn my mixer up to red-red-red levels by the end of the evening . The claim was that "Other Dj's use it like that" ..... the other DJ's also drove the crap out of the mixer which I did not want to do. Although I managed to get the message through after a few weeks by just refusing to turn the mixer past yellow when the owner walked in and cranked the amps up Never had the problem again. A simple gesture to the engineer on duty (if there is one) to let him know that you'll bring it down if he brings it up normally does the trick. Another residency I had running for short bursts into the red @ peak times on the master was the accepted norm although it was a formula sound mixer and Turbosound rig, it NEVER ever sounded bad except ONCE ! A particularly big Techno DJ decided he knew best and: A) Clipped all input channels and ran out of Channel Gain for mixing properly B) Blew the DJ monitor in my ear - thank christ I was wearing plugs that evening ! C) Blew the DJ monitor Amp. Thankfully I was able to pull the amp volumes down before damage was done to the main rig. The largest Crown XLS series is rated at 1550w when bridged at 8ohms. Off the top of my head Check the Macro-tech & I-tech series Maybe Reloops 1500w amps are the size of washing machines ? That was a gentle dig at MDC
Meg Reinoehl 17.04.2013	Originally Posted by KS2 Been there. What are you meant to do when it's set up like that when you jump on? TBH, I have no idea. I always face the personal dilemma that mentioned previously. Originally Posted by Shishdisma Brake/backspin, talk a little bit, and reset the floor. The dance floor shuffling around/cooling off a bit for a minute isn't going to ruin anyone's evening if it's done smoothly. Originally Posted by hellnegative This. Take the time to build hype within the crowd. A couple minutes of downtime for people to go grab drinks is not gonna cause any complaints. Agree with both of the above points, but I, personally, wouldn't attempt that without having the sound engineer with me to re-adjust the levels once the music starts back up. Depending on how loud it was, healthy levels on the mixer could be too low for the club and that should be compensated for as well.
Nancey Inderlied 17.04.2013	Originally Posted by deevey Why ? Maybe Reloops 1500w amps are the size of washing machines ? There are tons on 1500w amplifiers on the market that are a standard 19' 2U size that can push out that kind of power. Crown & Behringer to name just two readily available "real" 1500w (@8ohm) off the top of my head. However the majority of "1500" Watts Per channel amps are rated @ 4ohms, and 600W into 8 ohm boxes. Originally Posted by Sample Seven Class D architecture is a beautiful thing. Crown's XLS series make 1500W+, weigh less than 10lbs and fit in 2 rack spaces Oh look, people still believe the number on the spec sheet represents actual RMS power. The largest Crown XLS series is rated at 1550w when bridged at 8ohms. Off the top of my head, I'd estimate that actually levels at around ~900-1000 RMS, and that's probably just me putting too much faith in JBL. The Behringer and Reloop offerings are a joke, and wouldn't level anywhere near that.
Julius Schoenhofer 17.04.2013	Originally Posted by mdcdesign Well for starters, I highly doubt you're pushing 1500w per speaker... your amp would be the size of a washing machine. Class D architecture is a beautiful thing. Crown's XLS series make 1500W+, weigh less than 10lbs and fit in 2 rack spaces
Rolanda Clodfelder 16.04.2013	Some Amps show clipping on the input rather than output Well for starters, I highly doubt you're pushing 1500w per speaker... your amp would be the size of a washing machine. Why ? Maybe Reloops 1500w amps are the size of washing machines ? There are tons on 1500w amplifiers on the market that are a standard 19' 2U size that can push out that kind of power. Crown & Behringer to name just two readily available "real" 1500w (@8ohm) off the top of my head. However the majority of "1500" Watts Per channel amps are rated @ 4ohms, and 600W into 8 ohm boxes.
Lannie Kutay 16.04.2013	@Mcdesign Thank you sir for your answer. I will do some investigation
Alphonso Deitchman 16.04.2013	If you're sure the speakers can take much more volume it sounds like you need a more powerful amp. What are your amp+speaker specs?
Doreen Schurle 16.04.2013	Originally Posted by 031999 So let me try to sum up a few things for my own education. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I've played clubs and parties for a few years now, but never on my own system. Well I just started doing mobiles, I have two double 15" + tweeter cabs. Sending 1500w apiece, speakers are rated properly and the amp is matched. So last week I did a gig with 200 people my amps were at about level 7 and my mixer was certainly not clipping but was definitely really loud. But the amp was clipping like a mofo, showing me red on the limiter and sounding like shit. Now I'm sure that system should be plenty for that crowd, but it felt like I had to start maxing stuff out to be heard. Should I have taken my amp to the max? Turned down my mixer a bit, get a bigger system?? Haha idk Well for starters, I highly doubt you're pushing 1500w per speaker... your amp would be the size of a washing machine. Sounds like you've bought your gear based on PMPO ratings rather than RMS. I'm guessing your amp just isn't powerful enough; if your mixer's master output isn't clipping, then the input on your amp won't be either. It depends on whether or not the amp's clipping detection is based on its output stage or its input one; if it's the former, then having a different load (8 ohms vs 4 ohms, for example) can introduce clipping at less than full volume. But regardless of all of that, if your gear isn't going loud enough without distortion, it's time to upgrade
Lannie Kutay 16.04.2013	So let me try to sum up a few things for my own education. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I've played clubs and parties for a few years now, but never on my own system. Well I just started doing mobiles, I have two double 15" + tweeter cabs. Sending 1500w apiece, speakers are rated properly and the amp is matched. So last week I did a gig with 200 people my amps were at about level 7 and my mixer was certainly not clipping but was definitely really loud. But the amp was clipping like a mofo, showing me red on the limiter and sounding like shit. Now I'm sure that system should be plenty for that crowd, but it felt like I had to start maxing stuff out to be heard. Should I have taken my amp to the max? Turned down my mixer a bit, get a bigger system?? Haha idk
Doreen Schurle 16.04.2013	Originally Posted by thepanache The club amp should be doing the work, not the mixer. Stepping into the booth after another DJ and dropping the volume really kills the vibe. I play a regular set bi-weekly in a bar/club and have to blast the levels high into the red, gain at 3'o clock and full master.. Just because they refuse to adjust the amp. Apparently it's limited by the council?! I don't know if the council thing is true but never the less.. Sound quality should always be top of the list of priorities and especially with smaller clubs/bars/venues without sound engineers, the management need to really step up and understand how good sound management really effects the venue.. A bad rig/set-up can be extremely off putting for punters and DJ's alike. If a venue isn't going to take an active role in the sound side of things, then what they need to do is set the amp at the loudest possible volume (with the mixer on full-whack) to both a) avoid clipping, and b) avoid damage to the speakers. Then - as the DJ - when doing your soundcheck you take cues from the management as to the desired volume. They can always indicate "higher" or "lower" during the evening , which you can then adjust YOURSELF on the mixer - all without any "forced" clipping to attain the required volume.
Alphonso Deitchman 16.04.2013	If it's a modern digital mixer it could easily still be well within headroom depending on the settings. It could be their way of reducing the risk of damage to the system without having to rely on a brick-wall limiter when someone turns up the gains too high. The amps don't do more or less "work" if you use a loud or quiet signal (at the same output volume). The volume dial on the amp simply attenuates the input signal.
Syreeta Piela 16.04.2013	The club amp should be doing the work, not the mixer. Stepping into the booth after another DJ and dropping the volume really kills the vibe. I play a regular set bi-weekly in a bar/club and have to blast the levels high into the red, gain at 3'o clock and full master.. Just because they refuse to adjust the amp. Apparently it's limited by the council?! I don't know if the council thing is true but never the less.. Sound quality should always be top of the list of priorities and especially with smaller clubs/bars/venues without sound engineers, the management need to really step up and understand how good sound management really effects the venue.. A bad rig/set-up can be extremely off putting for punters and DJ's alike.

<< Back to General Discussion Reply

Copyright 2012-2023 DJRANKINGS.ORG n.g.o. Chuo-ku, Osaka, Japan	Created by Ajaxel CMS
Terms & Privacy

The best DJ in Algeria is:

Redlining - how bad is it?