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torrents keeping music alive (sensible descusssion please)

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torrents keeping music alive (sensible descusssion please) Posted on: 25.05.2012 by Marguerite Truka I like to mix in alot of old tracks and have a broad music rang in my song selection. However the main stream sources do not offer a portal for high quality older music! With EDM there are a few choices mainly beatport. There are private torrent sites with huge selections of tracks, that are only high quality and there is no bad transcoding there. Why is there no legal alternatives it seems for getting a huge range of top quality music from artists popular and not so popular. Even artists like kool and the gangs early stuff is not availible though legal channels. I am no longer a member of any sites like this since oink got taken down, however my big gripe is having to still buy music on vinyl in 2012. I love collecting my vinyl but in this day and age I should be able to get music legally without going down this channel. Please do not talk about any specific places to get copywrited material, as it would be nice to discuss this without the mods having to close this thread down
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by JasonBay But that fact is so skewed though because it doesn't factor in inflation and how much the average ticket is to go see a movie these days ($10+ dollars at some spots). I'm always hesitant when I see commercials and advertisements using that as a promotional tool because they aren't giving all the facts. oh yea for sure I get that, the cost of going to the cinema at least in the UK has raised well above inflation. Same with the music figures if you factor in inflation we are sposed to beleive the record industry is making a 5th of what it did in the 90's behave. You also have to look at as I said before the westernisation of the world, more people now have access to western film and music
Georgina Schatzman 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by tombruton69 In theory yes its cheaper but in reality people are pushing special effects further and further. However look at the avengers the highest grossing film for a 1st week ever. But that fact is so skewed though because it doesn't factor in inflation and how much the average ticket is to go see a movie these days ($10+ dollars at some spots). I'm always hesitant when I see commercials and advertisements using that as a promotional tool because they aren't giving all the facts.
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by tombruton69 torrents are not destroying the record industry just like the tape recorder didnt. record companies spin stuff its hard to get sympathy wen you have record profits. It's difficult to discuss this properly unless you can back up your points with some facts or sources. Am I being trolled? As you doubt the legitimacy of the IFPI reports above, let's go on personal experience instead. My time in the dnb scene suggests the exact oppposite of what you're saying. For me, releasing a record and not dj'ing would be the fastest path to ruin & collecting a Job Seekers Allowance cheque. Back in the 90's it wasn't common for a producer to also be a dj. Nowadays, it's a mandatory requirement. My first release sold around 1000 copies on vinyl. This was in 2004. Last week I read that Subtitles are going to stop releasing vinyl because they struggle to sell even 800 records. That's a ridiculously sad state of affairs... Subtitles is a well respected label with some major artists on their roster. The label owner has categorically stated that digital sales don't make up for the loss of vinyl sales. Why would they lie? Some sort of marketing strategy? To make people feel sorry for the label so they buy more mp3s? That doesn't make any sense. As a punter, I know for a fact that I spend a lot less money on music/films than I used to. Buying the odd track on Beatport isn't quite the same as buying 4 or 5 albums on cd every month. Spending
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by MiL0 And I would argue whether recordings made in the 21st century sound better than stuff made in the 60's to 90's. It's certainly louder but my ears prefer dynamics. and less brickwall limiting/compression. But that's a whole different discussion! ok the ability is there for it to be better im fully aware of this rubbish that our track needs to be louder. Im pretty certain most hifi's have a volume knob if the user wants it louder. torrents are not destroying the record industry just like the tape recorder didnt. record companies spin stuff its hard to get sympathy wen you have record profits.
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by tombruton69 its flawed tho because label revenue is different for each artist, and again you see from there calc record companies making more money than artists. back in the day when you needed a million pound recording studio there was no now you can setup a decent studio for 20 grand that can put out better quality recordings than back in the 80's. That may or may not be true but the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not torrents are a good thing for the music industry as a whole. Whether or not its cheaper to record an album nowadays isn't going to change the fact that downloading music/films clearly has had a noticeable effect on revenue over the past 20 years (if we disregard your unsubstantiated tax evasion theory). Besides, most big bands still record in very expensive studios... a Pro Tools rig costs not much less than a whole bunch of classic analogue preamps. And pro plugins aren't cheap either. And I would argue whether recordings made in the 21st century sound better than stuff made in the 60's to 90's. It's certainly louder but my ears prefer dynamics. and less brickwall limiting/compression. But that's a whole different discussion!
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by tombruton69 its really hard to actually get real figures as most of these companies move money around to avoid paying taxes. so you're saying that the charts posted in this thread are inaccurate because companies have started to move money around to avoid taxes? but they've only started avoiding tax since the turn of the century? (when sales took a dive) doesn't really make sense...
Leeanna Ayla 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by Miec I have yet to try out Spotify's offline mode in premium which could probably solve my issues but until I find the time to do that, I will keep my torrented music on my phone without feeling bad for it. Spotify offline mode works great! Originally Posted by tombruton69 Most the record companies are having year on year record profits. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I find that hard to believe. Do you have any sources to back that up?
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by tombruton69 milo the world does not end at the borders of USA. Most the record companies are having year on year record profits. This is partly due to the increased westernisation of the world. Music sales in china have shot up, funnily enough along with the sale of apple products. youve even got a company in iraq replicating apple stores. The big loosers are record stores. HMV in the UK is struggling even though most its compertition has died. But they do stupid things such as there crappy online music store and stupidly high priced vinyl. ok a single used to be
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	milo the world does not end at the borders of USA. Most the record companies are having year on year record profits. This is partly due to the increased westernisation of the world. Music sales in china have shot up, funnily enough along with the sale of apple products. youve even got a company in iraq replicating apple stores. The big loosers are record stores. HMV in the UK is struggling even though most its compertition has died. But they do stupid things such as there crappy online music store and stupidly high priced vinyl. ok a single used to be
Nannette Doniger 26.05.2012	I use torrents occasionlly to preview albums and if its good i'll usually buy it. I dont use em for dj music as alot of the time i found the quality was unreliable, some labelled as 320 were often just converted up from lower bitrates. I believe a big problem now is an artist has 1 successful single and the albums wheeled out within the next 2 weeks before anymore singles and you buy the album for
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	really? I'd be shocked if the major labels are making as much money as they were in the 80's-90's. I was spending around
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	I personally believe artists/labels are simply going to have to get used to earning a lot less money than they were in the 80's to 90's. A lot of labels/artists act like it's the norm to be earning thousands of dollars per month from their music but this kind of money is a relatively new thing, in the grand scheme of things. Don't get me wrong; I was invovled in the dnb scene a few years back so I know how much work goes into writing music and touring. But did I ever expect to earn
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by JasonBay But that fact is so skewed though because it doesn't factor in inflation and how much the average ticket is to go see a movie these days ($10+ dollars at some spots). I'm always hesitant when I see commercials and advertisements using that as a promotional tool because they aren't giving all the facts. oh yea for sure I get that, the cost of going to the cinema at least in the UK has raised well above inflation. Same with the music figures if you factor in inflation we are sposed to beleive the record industry is making a 5th of what it did in the 90's behave. You also have to look at as I said before the westernisation of the world, more people now have access to western film and music
Georgina Schatzman 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by tombruton69 In theory yes its cheaper but in reality people are pushing special effects further and further. However look at the avengers the highest grossing film for a 1st week ever. But that fact is so skewed though because it doesn't factor in inflation and how much the average ticket is to go see a movie these days ($10+ dollars at some spots). I'm always hesitant when I see commercials and advertisements using that as a promotional tool because they aren't giving all the facts.
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	In theory yes its cheaper but in reality people are pushing special effects further and further. However look at the avengers the highest grossing film for a 1st week ever. I believe artists are making less money but record companies are making more. DJ's used to be more important tho they actually made things a hit. We are both people who love music and have alot of it, so you dont mind a trip to the shop to get that new record, however for alot of people they would have to wait to the weekend then if they got sidetracked wouldnt get it and would forget about it. However with the internet one click you have got it. So its enabled impulse buying 24 hours a day. remember most people only ever owned about 40-50 records http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...United_Kingdom as you can see best selling albums in the uk is all over the place will adels album coming in 5th place from last year, record companies also drop ppl alot quicker they really dont want to put rescources into ppl unless there profits are super high. back onto topic adel came in 3rd for most pirated album, those torrent obviously destroyed her album sales lol! http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/top-10-...torrent-today/ remember record companies sell so much other stuff aswell even more than ever. i just had a look at sony music's public records but so much money going everywhere ul never know how much they make.
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by tombruton69 torrents are not destroying the record industry just like the tape recorder didnt. record companies spin stuff its hard to get sympathy wen you have record profits. It's difficult to discuss this properly unless you can back up your points with some facts or sources. Am I being trolled? As you doubt the legitimacy of the IFPI reports above, let's go on personal experience instead. My time in the dnb scene suggests the exact oppposite of what you're saying. For me, releasing a record and not dj'ing would be the fastest path to ruin & collecting a Job Seekers Allowance cheque. Back in the 90's it wasn't common for a producer to also be a dj. Nowadays, it's a mandatory requirement. My first release sold around 1000 copies on vinyl. This was in 2004. Last week I read that Subtitles are going to stop releasing vinyl because they struggle to sell even 800 records. That's a ridiculously sad state of affairs... Subtitles is a well respected label with some major artists on their roster. The label owner has categorically stated that digital sales don't make up for the loss of vinyl sales. Why would they lie? Some sort of marketing strategy? To make people feel sorry for the label so they buy more mp3s? That doesn't make any sense. As a punter, I know for a fact that I spend a lot less money on music/films than I used to. Buying the odd track on Beatport isn't quite the same as buying 4 or 5 albums on cd every month. Spending
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by MiL0 And I would argue whether recordings made in the 21st century sound better than stuff made in the 60's to 90's. It's certainly louder but my ears prefer dynamics. and less brickwall limiting/compression. But that's a whole different discussion! ok the ability is there for it to be better im fully aware of this rubbish that our track needs to be louder. Im pretty certain most hifi's have a volume knob if the user wants it louder. torrents are not destroying the record industry just like the tape recorder didnt. record companies spin stuff its hard to get sympathy wen you have record profits.
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by tombruton69 its flawed tho because label revenue is different for each artist, and again you see from there calc record companies making more money than artists. back in the day when you needed a million pound recording studio there was no now you can setup a decent studio for 20 grand that can put out better quality recordings than back in the 80's. That may or may not be true but the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not torrents are a good thing for the music industry as a whole. Whether or not its cheaper to record an album nowadays isn't going to change the fact that downloading music/films clearly has had a noticeable effect on revenue over the past 20 years (if we disregard your unsubstantiated tax evasion theory). Besides, most big bands still record in very expensive studios... a Pro Tools rig costs not much less than a whole bunch of classic analogue preamps. And pro plugins aren't cheap either. And I would argue whether recordings made in the 21st century sound better than stuff made in the 60's to 90's. It's certainly louder but my ears prefer dynamics. and less brickwall limiting/compression. But that's a whole different discussion!
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	its flawed tho because label revenue is different for each artist, and again you see from there calc record companies making more money than artists. back in the day when you needed a million pound recording studio there was no now you can setup a decent studio for 20 grand that can put out better quality recordings than back in the 80's. Yes artists are getting ripped off cuz thats how the fat cats of the record industry work. A independaNT record label should start there own online store with each artist having a page with there stuff on lets say u buy there album for 10quid, u then get access to a page with hq pics of the artist plus all the instrumentals and accapellas of that album
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by tombruton69 its really hard to actually get real figures as most of these companies move money around to avoid paying taxes. so you're saying that the charts posted in this thread are inaccurate because companies have started to move money around to avoid taxes? but they've only started avoiding tax since the turn of the century? (when sales took a dive) doesn't really make sense...
Debby Ramshur 26.05.2012	There is a really good blog post on The Cynical Musician that takes a look at web based distribution from an artist's point of view: The paradise that should have been I'm not quite sure what to believe about the numbers (and it would be interesting if someone could give som insight on beatport in comparison), but it shows on how money earned via digital sales is distributed
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	its really hard to actually get real figures as most of these companies move money around to avoid paying taxes. but i wont go to much into it as I am very anti america (not the people but the ppl who run the goverment) china has got alot better for copywrite so has russia, quite interesting all there schools moved over to linux cuz they where told they had to buy windows licences, that made me chuckle. btw its not torrents that is destroying music its casset tapes. that is why there was huge lawsuits to get there sale banned,
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	This is a pretty concrete example of the effect of torrents/illegal downloading of music: it's no coincidence that with the increase in internet speeds, came a massive drop in consumer spending on music/films.
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	Here we go: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012...al-music-sales also the chart below shows total digital/traditional sales of albums vs singles. As you can see, the music industry has been in recession since the beginning of the century: Source: IFPI (1973-2008) Now you're arguing that there is more profit to be made from digital sales. This might be true, but how much of it is going to the labels/artists and how much is going to itunes and spotify?
Leeanna Ayla 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by Miec I have yet to try out Spotify's offline mode in premium which could probably solve my issues but until I find the time to do that, I will keep my torrented music on my phone without feeling bad for it. Spotify offline mode works great! Originally Posted by tombruton69 Most the record companies are having year on year record profits. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I find that hard to believe. Do you have any sources to back that up?
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by tombruton69 milo the world does not end at the borders of USA. Most the record companies are having year on year record profits. This is partly due to the increased westernisation of the world. Music sales in china have shot up, funnily enough along with the sale of apple products. youve even got a company in iraq replicating apple stores. The big loosers are record stores. HMV in the UK is struggling even though most its compertition has died. But they do stupid things such as there crappy online music store and stupidly high priced vinyl. ok a single used to be
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	milo the world does not end at the borders of USA. Most the record companies are having year on year record profits. This is partly due to the increased westernisation of the world. Music sales in china have shot up, funnily enough along with the sale of apple products. youve even got a company in iraq replicating apple stores. The big loosers are record stores. HMV in the UK is struggling even though most its compertition has died. But they do stupid things such as there crappy online music store and stupidly high priced vinyl. ok a single used to be
Nannette Doniger 26.05.2012	I use torrents occasionlly to preview albums and if its good i'll usually buy it. I dont use em for dj music as alot of the time i found the quality was unreliable, some labelled as 320 were often just converted up from lower bitrates. I believe a big problem now is an artist has 1 successful single and the albums wheeled out within the next 2 weeks before anymore singles and you buy the album for
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	really? I'd be shocked if the major labels are making as much money as they were in the 80's-90's. I was spending around
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	Milo where did you find they are earning less money. the big companies are making more than ever. Artists are making more than ever, its easier and cheaper than ever to distribute music. all thats happened is they have not passed there saving onto the end users
Arcelia Siebeneck 26.05.2012	I personally believe artists/labels are simply going to have to get used to earning a lot less money than they were in the 80's to 90's. A lot of labels/artists act like it's the norm to be earning thousands of dollars per month from their music but this kind of money is a relatively new thing, in the grand scheme of things. Don't get me wrong; I was invovled in the dnb scene a few years back so I know how much work goes into writing music and touring. But did I ever expect to earn
Debby Ramshur 26.05.2012	I wanted to add the point, that we are maybe comparing the wrong forms of media. I would say, that my "torrenting activities" have had very little influence on the music I actually buy. Instead torrented music has wiped another medium from my listening habits completely: The radio. Before music became widely "available" for free, I would spend a similar amount on music to DJ with and a bit of extra cash for albums that weren't for DJing but felt special. This hasn't changed at all, the only difference is that when I wanted to listen to something else, I had to turn on the radio and hope that there was a station that would be playing something decent. Now I have the chance to create a personalized playlist without having to rely on some radio person to play music I like. This only changed recently with services like Spotify. For home use, I now use Spotify and I am happy with it. But when I'm not at home, having the music on my phone still feels more convenient than relying on a streaming app. Especially since I'm one of the few persons without a unlimited internet plan on my phone (mainly because I live in different countries every 6 months). I have yet to try out Spotify's offline mode in premium which could probably solve my issues but until I find the time to do that, I will keep my torrented music on my phone without feeling bad for it. So am I the only one who used torrents for that? Should radio stations be more worried about pirated music than record labels? What other services are recommendable for legally listening to lots of music?
Marguerite Truka 26.05.2012	Originally Posted by diezdiazgiant Maybe it's just that I was checking the wrong sites but years ago when i did trawl thru torrent websites, like the only music I could find was shit that was played out like crazy. I'm pretty sure thats why I stopped checking those shit sites - could only find music that was super popular and was sick of subjecting my computer to all the malicious code that's hidden in sites like pirate bay... Where you using private sites that you have to be invited to link oink (dont worry mod's that site no longer exists)? These are the communities that are passionate about variety and quality of music. Public trackers are a waste of time for anything. @zestori yes you do own your rips as they are your legal backup, however you can only make 1 copy using a cd duplicator, you cannot rip it to your pc, you are also allowed to make an analog format copy aswell. these are ur 2 allowed backups incase you loose ur origional
Rebbecca Fennell 25.05.2012	Maybe it's just that I was checking the wrong sites but years ago when i did trawl thru torrent websites, like the only music I could find was shit that was played out like crazy. I'm pretty sure thats why I stopped checking those shit sites - could only find music that was super popular and was sick of subjecting my computer to all the malicious code that's hidden in sites like pirate bay...
Pansy Shiveley 25.05.2012	Originally Posted by zestoi well not "obviously" else i wouldn't have asked Sorry, didn't mean it that way! Not sure about your case.. A lot of the copyright legislation is vague and/or outdated, I don't believe situations like these are properly handled. Whether or not you theoretically legally own the right to have the copy, you have no means of proving your purchase (unless you kept the receipts), so whatever the case, you're pretty much screwed. Legally, at least.
Chasidy Heckenbach 25.05.2012	Originally Posted by StephanV You, obviously. The sale implies a transfer of the license from him to you, which means the seller no longer owns the right to have a copy. well not "obviously" else i wouldn't have asked tho more what i meant was whether i legally now own all my rips given that i binned all my actual cd's. i suspect i don't... tho seems dumb to have to keep the physical cd just to retain right to play the music. not that i'm going to lose any sleep over that one track and will buy it legally if i ever find a download to buy...
Pansy Shiveley 25.05.2012	Originally Posted by zestoi if the original cd owner made a backup (which they are allowed to do) before selling you the cd who owns it now legally anyway? You, obviously. The sale implies a transfer of the license from him to you, which means the seller no longer owns the right to have a copy. The thing about having a second-hand market is that it actually increases the value of stuff. When purchasing, say, a car for $6.000, you know that you'll be able to sell it later on and get some of that money back. If you didn't have this possibility, your willingness to pay $6.000 for the car would be a lot less, because it's simply become more expensive. The very same is true for music. Indirectly, a second market generates revenue for the artists, because without it people would, on average, be willing to pay less for the music they purchase, bringing the prices down. But enough with the theoretical bs already. If you can't find it within reasonable amount of effort, fuck it. As Patch said, life's too short.
Chasidy Heckenbach 25.05.2012	i did torrent a copy of odyssea to anyoona by jam and spoon the other month as i just couldn't find anywhere to buy it. i already own a couple of copies on vinyl and used to have it on their album on CD but chucked out all my cd's years ago. then i realised i had ripped that cd to wav anyway i was desperate to find it and it's not like i didn't own it already - but just not in digital format. i don't see how buying 2nd hand is any more legal than torrenting. it's not helping the artists and if the original cd owner made a backup (which they are allowed to do) before selling you the cd who owns it now legally anyway? also would love to buy a copy of "whale" by "witchcraft" as my copy on vinyl probably isn't going to make for a decent digital conversion. can't find that track anywhere...
Yevette Matatall 25.05.2012	yes, yes they are My opinion is this, If you have the means to pay, then support and pay... I pay for all of mine..... I dont have a problem swapping tracks with a fellow Dj, however it will only ever be a few. I still havnt got a good quality recording of "personal jesus - timo mass remix" and ive looked for it everywhere. Next time he plays in Bali ill just have to ask him I guess.
Brunilda Kora 25.05.2012	Okay - I'll jump in... If I've exhausted every avenue I can find, and still haven't been able to legitimately get my paws on a track that I love, damn right I'll check the torrent sites for it. I love music - and I won't deprive myself of it if I can't GIVE my money to someone to provide me with it. I'm quite happy to avoid/ignore the moral issue if it means I can listen to a tune I've looked for FOR YEARS in my car on the way to work in the morning. I'll still nod my head like a mother-fucker with that shit on full blast (might even have the roof down with my shades on!) regardless of if I paid

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torrents keeping music alive (sensible descusssion please)