Legality of the Traktor Remix decks

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Legality of the Traktor Remix decks
Posted on: 02.06.2012 by Johnsie Kingrea
I was just believeing, how is it possible that the remix decks are legal? Anyone can throw in their own samples and export that remix track and share it with whoever. Just curious.
Sylvia Greener
13.06.2012
Originally Posted by tokenasianguy
My friend used to create drum loops and combine them with acapella's that he obtained online. Someone contacted him and said he had to remove them immediately or there would be legal action.
That's exactly why I would be careful with taking samples from everywhere and using it in my projects. If they really want to start legal action things can get very expensive quite quickly.
Darlene Strohbeck
11.06.2012
Originally Posted by MiL0
So what we're talking about is licensing rather than copyright infringement (seeing as I'm sampling preview clips that have been made publically available by the artist, for example).
Often times the "artist" is not the one that owns the music, but the "publisher" or "label". There was a case where Radiohead made the raw files of their songs available for free online for anyone to do as they wanted with, and a bunch of the people that "remixed" their songs received a cease and desist notice from the lable and/or publisher.

So what's the difference between that and uploading a mix to the internet that features copyrighted tracks? Are dj's licensed to mix and upload their mixes in this manner? Why do clubs/bars have to pay a license fee to play music but dj's who upload their mixes don't? And if mixes are acceptable then so should 'remix sets' surely?
DJ's aren't allowed to upload mix sets. The law could be different worldwide, but in Canada, even though you pay for licensing to "play" music live, you're still not allowed to distribute mix CD's. I'm sure that falls under a different law, but if you watch they Doc I mentioned, they talk about how the "DJ" Girl Talk would have to pay $2.5 to use the songs he features in his mix CD's, because he's a "mash-up" DJ.

I get what everyone is saying... it's just to me, there's a bit of a double standard going on here and it shows how out of date copyright/licensing laws are. And it's going to get much worse if 'remix sets' catch on...
Absolutely. Most of the money isn't finding its way to the artists, so it's a bunch of corporations that were started in the early 1900's who have conquered and controlled every creative front since then.
Arcelia Siebeneck
11.06.2012
Originally Posted by tokenasianguy
Using ANY part, of ANY song, for ANY reason WITHOUT paying licensing is illegal...Doesn't matter how you spin it (pun intended). Doesn't matter whether it's just a sample of a song, or you're or a DJ creating a mix CD, or you own a coffee shop and you play background music. It's all illegal unless you pay for licensing.

There are some exceptions, like if you only use 2 seconds or something like that...But for all intensive purposes, using any part of any song for any reason (that involves anyone other than just you listening) is illegal...technically...Whether or not you'll get caught is a different story.
So what we're talking about is licensing rather than copyright infringement (seeing as I'm sampling preview clips that have been made publically available by the artist, for example).

So what's the difference between that and uploading a mix to the internet that features copyrighted tracks? Are dj's licensed to mix and upload their mixes in this manner? Why do clubs/bars have to pay a license fee to play music but dj's who upload their mixes don't? And if mixes are acceptable then so should 'remix sets' surely?

I get what everyone is saying... it's just to me, there's a bit of a double standard going on here and it shows how out of date copyright/licensing laws are. And it's going to get much worse if 'remix sets' catch on...
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
11.06.2012
Originally Posted by tombruton69
thats the song they jacked for stairway to heaven
that just rocked my world! it's all been builton a foundation of lies
Celestine Porebski
11.06.2012
Originally Posted by tokenasianguy
There are some exceptions, like if you only use 2 seconds or something like that...
That's an urban legend. The length of the sample does not matter. If people are able to recognize a teensy tinsy sample might be a different issue. But it's not technically legal without permission.
Darlene Strohbeck
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
and the funnier thing is the rolling stones stole it from an early blues artist, can't find the info on the web though... It's not new with the rolling stones either, they stole a lot of blues melodies and lyrics...
I believe it might have been Muddy Waters. When you believe about it, blues was the entire foundation of Rock n Roll so absolutely a lot of stuff was stolen and/or borrowed. Walt Disney copied his earliest works from other people, it's just that at that time, there was little to no copyright laws, and the people that created them are the corporations that own the works. When you pay for licensing, it never finds its way to the artist. In Canada is barely finds it's way to the publishing house because there's no method of distribution in place...So the governing body that's responsible for collecting the licensing fees is sitting on a huge slush fund.
Darlene Strohbeck
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by MiL0
what about if the samples are taken from preview clips or mixes that have been uploaded by the producer/dj? or if they're sampled from high quality preview clips from shops like itunes/beatport/etc?
Using ANY part, of ANY song, for ANY reason WITHOUT paying licensing is illegal...Doesn't matter how you spin it (pun intended). Doesn't matter whether it's just a sample of a song, or you're or a DJ creating a mix CD, or you own a coffee shop and you play background music. It's all illegal unless you pay for licensing.

There are some exceptions, like if you only use 2 seconds or something like that...But for all intensive purposes, using any part of any song for any reason (that involves anyone other than just you listening) is illegal...technically...Whether or not you'll get caught is a different story.
Yevette Matatall
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by tombruton69
I wouldnt worry too much even led zeplin got away with ripping off another song for stairway to heaven
Stairway to heaven.... i believe not, but hey i could be wrong.... link to source please...

Yes zeppelin as with the stones drew inspiration and even a little more in the way of chord proggresions from older blues artists in a few of thier tracks, theres no denying that, but ive enver heard anything in the way of stairway being similar to another track prior to it.
Leeanna Ayla
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by MiL0
what about if the samples are taken from preview clips or mixes that have been uploaded by the producer/dj? or if they're sampled from high quality preview clips from shops like itunes/beatport/etc?
Originally Posted by photojojo
Uploading samples from copyrighted tunes is the same as uploading the entire tune.

Unless it's royalty free samples or you are the original creator of the samples don't share remix sets. All things apply here as they would with full length tracks tracks
Arcelia Siebeneck
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by photojojo
Uploading samples from copyrighted tunes is the same as uploading the entire tune.
what about if the samples are taken from preview clips or mixes that have been uploaded by the producer/dj? or if they're sampled from high quality preview clips from shops like itunes/beatport/etc?
Darlene Strohbeck
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by Publicservice
the terms bootleg and free download are how you get away with remixes
Making it free doesn't make it legal.
Sylvia Greener
13.06.2012
Originally Posted by tokenasianguy
My friend used to create drum loops and combine them with acapella's that he obtained online. Someone contacted him and said he had to remove them immediately or there would be legal action.
That's exactly why I would be careful with taking samples from everywhere and using it in my projects. If they really want to start legal action things can get very expensive quite quickly.
Darlene Strohbeck
11.06.2012		My friend used to create drum loops and combine them with acapella's that he obtained online. Someone contacted him and said he had to remove them immediately or there would be legal action.
Darlene Strohbeck
11.06.2012
Originally Posted by MiL0
So what we're talking about is licensing rather than copyright infringement (seeing as I'm sampling preview clips that have been made publically available by the artist, for example).
Often times the "artist" is not the one that owns the music, but the "publisher" or "label". There was a case where Radiohead made the raw files of their songs available for free online for anyone to do as they wanted with, and a bunch of the people that "remixed" their songs received a cease and desist notice from the lable and/or publisher.

So what's the difference between that and uploading a mix to the internet that features copyrighted tracks? Are dj's licensed to mix and upload their mixes in this manner? Why do clubs/bars have to pay a license fee to play music but dj's who upload their mixes don't? And if mixes are acceptable then so should 'remix sets' surely?
DJ's aren't allowed to upload mix sets. The law could be different worldwide, but in Canada, even though you pay for licensing to "play" music live, you're still not allowed to distribute mix CD's. I'm sure that falls under a different law, but if you watch they Doc I mentioned, they talk about how the "DJ" Girl Talk would have to pay $2.5 to use the songs he features in his mix CD's, because he's a "mash-up" DJ.

I get what everyone is saying... it's just to me, there's a bit of a double standard going on here and it shows how out of date copyright/licensing laws are. And it's going to get much worse if 'remix sets' catch on...
Absolutely. Most of the money isn't finding its way to the artists, so it's a bunch of corporations that were started in the early 1900's who have conquered and controlled every creative front since then.
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
11.06.2012		who decided it's a good idea to give away a remix set anyway, it would take a lot of time to cultivate a decent library of sounds that work together, that is your individuality right there... I can't see any individuals freely giving away their packs legal or not... in the case of companies giving away free stuff that isn't really free, companies are buying your goodwill in the hope that you buy one of their products, read their articles, go to their shows etc...

I believe this is completely hypothetical in that case... using samples from other peoples music is a grey area, but the rules on the likely hood of getting in trouble should be.

  • are you just doing it in your community/bedroom? do whatever you like no one will care.
  • if your making a little money off it are they signed to a major label? don't use it period.


are you going to make any money off playing a remix set? no probably not.. I doubt it would even be tolerated at your residency as it would be too patchy for the crowd without a really carefully chosen loop library, but in this case you probably create all your own loops so you can get exactly the sound your after.

The only variable is if native instruments are in bed with beatport and the record companies, in this case stems could be sold as proposed at the start of the year by a few different people, then the rules would have to be rewritten, but imho it is highly unlikely that your going to get stems from major artists/anyone who is smart.
Arcelia Siebeneck
11.06.2012
Originally Posted by tokenasianguy
Using ANY part, of ANY song, for ANY reason WITHOUT paying licensing is illegal...Doesn't matter how you spin it (pun intended). Doesn't matter whether it's just a sample of a song, or you're or a DJ creating a mix CD, or you own a coffee shop and you play background music. It's all illegal unless you pay for licensing.

There are some exceptions, like if you only use 2 seconds or something like that...But for all intensive purposes, using any part of any song for any reason (that involves anyone other than just you listening) is illegal...technically...Whether or not you'll get caught is a different story.
So what we're talking about is licensing rather than copyright infringement (seeing as I'm sampling preview clips that have been made publically available by the artist, for example).

So what's the difference between that and uploading a mix to the internet that features copyrighted tracks? Are dj's licensed to mix and upload their mixes in this manner? Why do clubs/bars have to pay a license fee to play music but dj's who upload their mixes don't? And if mixes are acceptable then so should 'remix sets' surely?

I get what everyone is saying... it's just to me, there's a bit of a double standard going on here and it shows how out of date copyright/licensing laws are. And it's going to get much worse if 'remix sets' catch on...
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
11.06.2012
Originally Posted by tombruton69
thats the song they jacked for stairway to heaven
that just rocked my world! it's all been builton a foundation of lies
Celestine Porebski
11.06.2012
Originally Posted by tokenasianguy
There are some exceptions, like if you only use 2 seconds or something like that...
That's an urban legend. The length of the sample does not matter. If people are able to recognize a teensy tinsy sample might be a different issue. But it's not technically legal without permission.
Darlene Strohbeck
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
and the funnier thing is the rolling stones stole it from an early blues artist, can't find the info on the web though... It's not new with the rolling stones either, they stole a lot of blues melodies and lyrics...
I believe it might have been Muddy Waters. When you believe about it, blues was the entire foundation of Rock n Roll so absolutely a lot of stuff was stolen and/or borrowed. Walt Disney copied his earliest works from other people, it's just that at that time, there was little to no copyright laws, and the people that created them are the corporations that own the works. When you pay for licensing, it never finds its way to the artist. In Canada is barely finds it's way to the publishing house because there's no method of distribution in place...So the governing body that's responsible for collecting the licensing fees is sitting on a huge slush fund.
Darlene Strohbeck
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by MiL0
what about if the samples are taken from preview clips or mixes that have been uploaded by the producer/dj? or if they're sampled from high quality preview clips from shops like itunes/beatport/etc?
Using ANY part, of ANY song, for ANY reason WITHOUT paying licensing is illegal...Doesn't matter how you spin it (pun intended). Doesn't matter whether it's just a sample of a song, or you're or a DJ creating a mix CD, or you own a coffee shop and you play background music. It's all illegal unless you pay for licensing.

There are some exceptions, like if you only use 2 seconds or something like that...But for all intensive purposes, using any part of any song for any reason (that involves anyone other than just you listening) is illegal...technically...Whether or not you'll get caught is a different story.
Marguerite Truka
10.06.2012

thats the song they jacked for stairway to heaven

http://www.warr.org/zep.html#Thieves

here is a list of songs they stole some allmost word for word.

narrah, just to comment on ur comment wat they really did was mashup folk music and blue's lyrics, to be fair it did get good results
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
10.06.2012		zepplin are artists with inspiration from blues, the stones were thieves in their early carrer taking entire songs and not at all in the league of zepplin... it was ultimately good for the music culture though as they introduced the masses to the 12 bar blues which is the foundation of all rock music not counting crap like death metal or more experimental bands like tool and mike pattons many aliases, but neither would likely exist without blues being influence, we would probably still be listening to folk music made by hippies.
Yevette Matatall
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by tombruton69
I wouldnt worry too much even led zeplin got away with ripping off another song for stairway to heaven
Stairway to heaven.... i believe not, but hey i could be wrong.... link to source please...

Yes zeppelin as with the stones drew inspiration and even a little more in the way of chord proggresions from older blues artists in a few of thier tracks, theres no denying that, but ive enver heard anything in the way of stairway being similar to another track prior to it.
Marguerite Truka
10.06.2012		I wouldnt worry too much even led zeplin got away with ripping off another song for stairway to heaven
Leeanna Ayla
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by MiL0
what about if the samples are taken from preview clips or mixes that have been uploaded by the producer/dj? or if they're sampled from high quality preview clips from shops like itunes/beatport/etc?
Originally Posted by photojojo
Uploading samples from copyrighted tunes is the same as uploading the entire tune.

Unless it's royalty free samples or you are the original creator of the samples don't share remix sets. All things apply here as they would with full length tracks tracks
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
10.06.2012		and the funnier thing is the rolling stones stole it from an early blues artist, can't find the info on the web though... It's not new with the rolling stones either, they stole a lot of blues melodies and lyrics...
Nedra Fresneda
10.06.2012		I wouldn't call itunes/beatport previews high quality. While someone doesn't come in here wanting to sell his remix sets without clearance I guess it should be fine (in theory you are not allowed to sample and distribute any media material you purchase but even I uploaded the project file for a mashup a while back and got nothing but compliments from both users and mods)

It's something that would surely deserve it's own batcave thread. NI community s doesn't even allow users to upload sets to avoid any legal claims.
Arcelia Siebeneck
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by photojojo
Uploading samples from copyrighted tunes is the same as uploading the entire tune.
what about if the samples are taken from preview clips or mixes that have been uploaded by the producer/dj? or if they're sampled from high quality preview clips from shops like itunes/beatport/etc?
Darlene Strohbeck
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by Publicservice
the terms bootleg and free download are how you get away with remixes
Making it free doesn't make it legal.
Debrah Arnaout
10.06.2012		the terms bootleg and free download are how you get away with remixes
Brunilda Kora
11.06.2012		Absolutely true.
Darlene Strohbeck
11.06.2012
Originally Posted by Patch
Actually:
Rumor has it The Verve didn't make any money off that album. They didn't clear that sample, and when the legal battle was over they were left with nothing.
Darlene Strohbeck
11.06.2012
Originally Posted by MiL0
so if I was to upload remix sets of some copyrighted tunes and share them on DJTT, what would be the mods/admin stance on all this? (would it depend on how much of the copyrighted tune has been sampled?)

what about if it came with a warning that you must own the original tunes before you download/use the remix sets?
In most cases, the people in question are small potatoes, so the responsible governing body probably has bigger fish to fry. But using music that you haven't paid licensing for, whether you upload a mix set, or have autoplay music on your website is all illegal. However, unless you're a DJ who headlines live shows, nobody is really going to care.
Brunilda Kora
10.06.2012		Actually:
"Bitter Sweet Symphony" is a song by English alternative rock band The Verve, the lead track on their third album, Urban Hymns. It is based on music from an Andrew Loog Oldham adaptation of a Rolling Stones song, "The Last Time", and involved some legal controversy surrounding plagiarism charges.
Sherman Seaberry
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by RockingClub
Sorry for being offtopic but is someone here who can tell me which song the strings at around 2:20 are from? I've been searching this song for months always having this string melody playing in my head!
It's from a song called Bittersweet Symphony by The Verve:
Sylvia Greener
10.06.2012
Originally Posted by tokenasianguy
Sorry for being offtopic but is someone here who can tell me which song the strings at around 2:20 are from? I've been searching this song for months always having this string melody playing in my head!
Leeanna Ayla
10.06.2012		Uploading samples from copyrighted tunes is the same as uploading the entire tune. Even uploading remix decks using purchased loops is probably not a good idea unless the licensing gives you the right to share. That said we have to go on the word of the people uploading them as we're not going to be able check each and every remix set.
Arcelia Siebeneck
10.06.2012		so if I was to upload remix sets of some copyrighted tunes and share them on DJTT, what would be the mods/admin stance on all this? (would it depend on how much of the copyrighted tune has been sampled?)

what about if it came with a warning that you must own the original tunes before you download/use the remix sets?
Darlene Strohbeck
09.06.2012
Originally Posted by MiL0
sorry to bump this thread but I believe it's an interesting topic.

it seems inevitable that there's gonna be a market/demand for sharing remix sets with other Traktor users.. particularly as NI has made the process of creating and saving the remix sets so easy.

So where do we draw the line, legally speaking?

Are we allowed to share remix sets of copyrighted music? Probably not. But what about creating remix sets from sample clips uploaded by the artists themselves? Or what about creating remix sets from mixes that have been uploaded by the artist, label or other dj's?
I don't know about where you are, but in Canada, it's illegal to even DJ live without paying licensing. Most club's/bar's will pay this and the DJ's aren't aware...But for mobile DJ's it's usually their own responsibility to pay for it, which most of them don't.

But it is a bit of a grey area. Look at artists like Girl Talk. Not only does he make sample numerous songs and chop them up to make an entire song comprised of clips, but he does live shows and uploads his albums onto his site for free downloads. I don't believe he has been sued yet, but people are definitely believeing it's inevitable.

In Canada even though you pay for licensing, it's still illegal to give out mix CD's, since the licensing is only for "live music".

The licensing fee seems a bit ridiculous, and when I studied music production and engineering, we had a copyright class and our instructor worked for SOCAN which is the governing body in Canada that's responsible for copyrights. He told us that when you pay licensing it goes into this "fund". And since there's no way to figure out how to distribute the money, it just sits there...And how could they distribute it? Are the going to listen to your entire set and give an equal portion or your licensing fee to whatever artists you play? No.

If you guys want to see an interesting documentary about remixing?

The entire movie is available on Youtube in separate parts or on netflix.
Leeanna Ayla
09.06.2012		As if the are wasn't gray enough already. Maybe it'll follow the different creative commons licensing and use when remix sets are distributed. So I could release a track and remix set and say you can use it and share it, but you can't sell it. Or I can release a track with a remix set and say you can use it, but can't share it.

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