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Cheap BEHRINGER Class D Amps

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Cheap BEHRINGER Class D Amps Posted on: 20.06.2012 by Jerica Salava these amps are pretty amazing. With DSP software too. NU1000 for $200 NU3000 for $300 NU6000 for $400 LINK: http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2011/...ps-get-editor/ >
Dorie Scelzo 22.06.2012	Good point. One question, though
Dorie Scelzo 22.06.2012	Good point. One question, though
Layne Koop 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by mostapha One question, though…are you actually giving the amps a load when you're testing their output? If not, how does that change things? Tube amps are not something I would use as a mobile DJ. In general, tube amps do require a load in order to measure the output. There are "dummy loads" specifically built to measure tube amp output. Solid state amps are constant voltage devices, within their limits. This means that the amp can be measured without a load. Most amps have a minimum impedance per channel. At a constant voltage, as impedance drops, the supplied current will increase (this is a text restatement of Ohm's Law). All amps are current limited based on the ability of the amp heat sinks capability to remove heat, and on the ability of the amp power supply to supply power from the wall (in rough terms).
Dorie Scelzo 22.06.2012	Good point. One question, though
Layne Koop 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by mostapha Going to those extents seems like it could have some real benefits. But…what do you do when the DJ maxes out the first 3 gain stages (input gain, level, and output gain on the DJ mixer) and in the process clips 2-3 times (input circuitry or ADC, mix bus, and output bus or DAC) before it hits something you can control? In practical terms...everything in my signal chain clips at the same time the limiter kicks in. Everyone who uses the system gets the same speech....once you see red on the DJ board, the sound will proceed to suck...more red gets more suck. What they choose to do with that information is their business. The purpose of the limiter is to protect the speakers from being damaged....I honestly don't care what the limiter does to the sound. If the system isn't loud enough, then it's not loud enough (this is NEVER actually the case....I have more than enough rig for my gigs). Pushing the signal into the red can either make the sound suck (by distorting the signal), or it can make the sound stop (if the drivers get blown). Which option would you prefer?
Layne Koop 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by sobi Actually, I did. I limited the signal so it could never go too hot. Which signal did you limit? What is the value and units of "too hot"? If you don't know these answers, then how can you claim to have actually accomplished something useful? I am not trying to bust your chops....I am trying to get you to your next epiphany.
Darren Teboe 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj You didn't accomplish anything using that method. Actually, I did. I limited the signal so it could never go too hot.
Layne Koop 23.06.2012	Originally Posted by sobi I'm not sure... that's why I was asking. In my experience, I did it by eye. Anything that went past green on the mixers was going to get squashed. You didn't accomplish anything using that method. My eyes are not quite able to see the voltage differential across the terminals of an amp....that's why I have to measure. Oh...and it's why I always turn off the electrical power before I change an outlet, or install a light fixture....I can't see the voltage there either. Nothing beats actual measurements (when combined with appropriate understanding). Everything else is superstitious nonsense at best.
Layne Koop 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by sobi Why do you use volt meters to set limiters? I've always been under the impression that amps are the last thing in the chain before speakers. Either way, you should share your findings over at DJForums. There is a load of people that would probably love to discuss that. How can you set limiters accurately without a volt meter? I set my gain structure through the whole signal chain - and everything will clip at "the same" level within some reasonable margin. The thing before the amp in the signal chain is the PA manager (which has a ton of stuff including para EQ on the inputs, crossover, para EQ on each output channel, and the limiter on each output). I run a pure tone (1kHz for tops, 60Hz for subs) through the system, turn the amp input gain all the way up, and then turn the limiter down until I get the max voltage from the amp that I want. From that point on, the limiter can NOT be raised...but everything in the chain can be safely turned down.
Jerica Salava 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by mostapha Best buy sells basically NI's non-DVS catalog: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpa...egories&ks=960 or even weirder: You can buy Waves Platinum at Best Buy They also sell some of the cheaper Avid PT bundles. I believe I saw an MBox + PT10 @ my local one at some point. Stores are branching out in what they sell. I believe it has to do with google shopping. $1500 for that little box of WAVES PLATINUM ! . WOW ! I would love to see that face of the cashier when she scans it. >
Darren Teboe 21.06.2012	Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj I have eight EP2500 amps. They are solid workhorse amps (and RMX clones). I use a volt meter to set limiters for every event...and these amps will deliver what they promise in terms of voltage. The EP1500's I used were also able to deliver their rated voltage. Why do you use volt meters to set limiters? I've always been under the impression that amps are the last thing in the chain before speakers. Either way, you should share your findings over at DJForums. There is a load of people that would probably love to discuss that.
Dorie Scelzo 21.06.2012	Originally Posted by audiolive Did it? Good and cheap are not words I would use in the same sentence Vestax (still the king of cheap mixers IMHO) Echo (their cards ABX in line with Apogee) Native Instruments (as much as they piss me off) vs. Serato and the like. Peavey (amps; guitar amps; etc.) Apple Logic (so much cheaper than other DAWs besides stuff like Reaper). Reaper. Mellowmuse (their vintage line is cheap for what it is and is apparently well-regarded…demoing their summing emulation now) Korg (nano series…though it's a bit of a stretch…the nonkontrol2 is missing a lot compared to better daw controllers but it also costs 1/20 as much) Akai (their small controllers are pretty good compared to other cheap stuff) Presonus (specifically the StudioLive mixers…24 channels with decent preamps, good converters, FW, and full channel strips for $3300 ?!) They're all pretty cheap for what they are and are either well regarded or just plain cheap for at least some of their lines without sacrificing performance or reliability…
Layne Koop 21.06.2012	Originally Posted by sobi You'll need three just to actually get the power that they advertise as well. Behringers numbers (power wise, and maybe everything else too) are pure bullshit from what I've read. I don't claim to know a lot, but people who do (almost none of which post on this community )... who are pro audio guys... all seem to say that the numbers Behringer advertises are no where near what their products actually pump out. If you've measured with voltage meters, etc., then I stand corrected. I have eight EP2500 amps. They are solid workhorse amps (and RMX clones). I use a volt meter to set limiters for every event...and these amps will deliver what they promise in terms of voltage. The EP1500's I used were also able to deliver their rated voltage. I mostly do professional dance competitions...the amps might get 100-ish hours of continuous use over a 4 day weekend. I am NOT kidding...there is music in the ballroom for competition, dancing, late evening dancing, early morning practice, workshops, then repeat....24 hours a day starting on Thursday evening until Monday morning. I typically run a 4ohm load per channel, and hard limit at about 40volts (~200w per box). So, I certainly let the system "coast" over the weekend. I have provided sound at almost 60 events in the 5-ish years I have owned these amps. Conservatively, I have more than 5000 hours of use on each amp without ANY issues at all. I do not have any experience with the new lightweight amps...but based on my experience with the EP's....I'd be willing to give the lightweight stuff a try.
Dorie Scelzo 24.06.2012	That actually makes sense. And no, I wasn't suggesting that tube amps are appropriate for PA systems. I just have only really thought about that side of them in terms of guitar amps.
Layne Koop 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by mostapha One question, though…are you actually giving the amps a load when you're testing their output? If not, how does that change things? Tube amps are not something I would use as a mobile DJ. In general, tube amps do require a load in order to measure the output. There are "dummy loads" specifically built to measure tube amp output. Solid state amps are constant voltage devices, within their limits. This means that the amp can be measured without a load. Most amps have a minimum impedance per channel. At a constant voltage, as impedance drops, the supplied current will increase (this is a text restatement of Ohm's Law). All amps are current limited based on the ability of the amp heat sinks capability to remove heat, and on the ability of the amp power supply to supply power from the wall (in rough terms).
Dorie Scelzo 22.06.2012	Good point. One question, though
Layne Koop 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by mostapha Going to those extents seems like it could have some real benefits. But…what do you do when the DJ maxes out the first 3 gain stages (input gain, level, and output gain on the DJ mixer) and in the process clips 2-3 times (input circuitry or ADC, mix bus, and output bus or DAC) before it hits something you can control? In practical terms...everything in my signal chain clips at the same time the limiter kicks in. Everyone who uses the system gets the same speech....once you see red on the DJ board, the sound will proceed to suck...more red gets more suck. What they choose to do with that information is their business. The purpose of the limiter is to protect the speakers from being damaged....I honestly don't care what the limiter does to the sound. If the system isn't loud enough, then it's not loud enough (this is NEVER actually the case....I have more than enough rig for my gigs). Pushing the signal into the red can either make the sound suck (by distorting the signal), or it can make the sound stop (if the drivers get blown). Which option would you prefer?
Dorie Scelzo 22.06.2012	Going to those extents seems like it could have some real benefits. But…what do you do when the DJ maxes out the first 3 gain stages (input gain, level, and output gain on the DJ mixer) and in the process clips 2-3 times (input circuitry or ADC, mix bus, and output bus or DAC) before it hits something you can control? Kinda just seems like a waste compared to just learning how the meters on your FOH console are calibrated. But, I could be wrong. If I am…please teach me something. I like learning.
Layne Koop 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by sobi Actually, I did. I limited the signal so it could never go too hot. Which signal did you limit? What is the value and units of "too hot"? If you don't know these answers, then how can you claim to have actually accomplished something useful? I am not trying to bust your chops....I am trying to get you to your next epiphany.
Darren Teboe 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj You didn't accomplish anything using that method. Actually, I did. I limited the signal so it could never go too hot.
Layne Koop 23.06.2012	Originally Posted by sobi I'm not sure... that's why I was asking. In my experience, I did it by eye. Anything that went past green on the mixers was going to get squashed. You didn't accomplish anything using that method. My eyes are not quite able to see the voltage differential across the terminals of an amp....that's why I have to measure. Oh...and it's why I always turn off the electrical power before I change an outlet, or install a light fixture....I can't see the voltage there either. Nothing beats actual measurements (when combined with appropriate understanding). Everything else is superstitious nonsense at best.
Darren Teboe 22.06.2012	I'm not sure... that's why I was asking. In my experience, I did it by eye. Anything that went past green on the mixers was going to get squashed.
Layne Koop 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by sobi Why do you use volt meters to set limiters? I've always been under the impression that amps are the last thing in the chain before speakers. Either way, you should share your findings over at DJForums. There is a load of people that would probably love to discuss that. How can you set limiters accurately without a volt meter? I set my gain structure through the whole signal chain - and everything will clip at "the same" level within some reasonable margin. The thing before the amp in the signal chain is the PA manager (which has a ton of stuff including para EQ on the inputs, crossover, para EQ on each output channel, and the limiter on each output). I run a pure tone (1kHz for tops, 60Hz for subs) through the system, turn the amp input gain all the way up, and then turn the limiter down until I get the max voltage from the amp that I want. From that point on, the limiter can NOT be raised...but everything in the chain can be safely turned down.
Jerica Salava 22.06.2012	Originally Posted by mostapha Best buy sells basically NI's non-DVS catalog: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpa...egories&ks=960 or even weirder: You can buy Waves Platinum at Best Buy They also sell some of the cheaper Avid PT bundles. I believe I saw an MBox + PT10 @ my local one at some point. Stores are branching out in what they sell. I believe it has to do with google shopping. $1500 for that little box of WAVES PLATINUM ! . WOW ! I would love to see that face of the cashier when she scans it. >
Darren Teboe 21.06.2012	Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj I have eight EP2500 amps. They are solid workhorse amps (and RMX clones). I use a volt meter to set limiters for every event...and these amps will deliver what they promise in terms of voltage. The EP1500's I used were also able to deliver their rated voltage. Why do you use volt meters to set limiters? I've always been under the impression that amps are the last thing in the chain before speakers. Either way, you should share your findings over at DJForums. There is a load of people that would probably love to discuss that.
Dorie Scelzo 21.06.2012	Best buy sells basically NI's non-DVS catalog: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpa...egories&ks=960 or even weirder: You can buy Waves Platinum at Best Buy They also sell some of the cheaper Avid PT bundles. I believe I saw an MBox + PT10 @ my local one at some point. Stores are branching out in what they sell. I believe it has to do with google shopping.
Rosina Steinkuehler 21.06.2012	Seems a bit strange to find this product at Walmart of all places! http://www.walmart.com/ip/Behringer-...260420&veh=cse
Dorie Scelzo 21.06.2012	Originally Posted by audiolive Did it? Good and cheap are not words I would use in the same sentence Vestax (still the king of cheap mixers IMHO) Echo (their cards ABX in line with Apogee) Native Instruments (as much as they piss me off) vs. Serato and the like. Peavey (amps; guitar amps; etc.) Apple Logic (so much cheaper than other DAWs besides stuff like Reaper). Reaper. Mellowmuse (their vintage line is cheap for what it is and is apparently well-regarded…demoing their summing emulation now) Korg (nano series…though it's a bit of a stretch…the nonkontrol2 is missing a lot compared to better daw controllers but it also costs 1/20 as much) Akai (their small controllers are pretty good compared to other cheap stuff) Presonus (specifically the StudioLive mixers…24 channels with decent preamps, good converters, FW, and full channel strips for $3300 ?!) They're all pretty cheap for what they are and are either well regarded or just plain cheap for at least some of their lines without sacrificing performance or reliability…
Layne Koop 21.06.2012	Originally Posted by sobi You'll need three just to actually get the power that they advertise as well. Behringers numbers (power wise, and maybe everything else too) are pure bullshit from what I've read. I don't claim to know a lot, but people who do (almost none of which post on this community )... who are pro audio guys... all seem to say that the numbers Behringer advertises are no where near what their products actually pump out. If you've measured with voltage meters, etc., then I stand corrected. I have eight EP2500 amps. They are solid workhorse amps (and RMX clones). I use a volt meter to set limiters for every event...and these amps will deliver what they promise in terms of voltage. The EP1500's I used were also able to deliver their rated voltage. I mostly do professional dance competitions...the amps might get 100-ish hours of continuous use over a 4 day weekend. I am NOT kidding...there is music in the ballroom for competition, dancing, late evening dancing, early morning practice, workshops, then repeat....24 hours a day starting on Thursday evening until Monday morning. I typically run a 4ohm load per channel, and hard limit at about 40volts (~200w per box). So, I certainly let the system "coast" over the weekend. I have provided sound at almost 60 events in the 5-ish years I have owned these amps. Conservatively, I have more than 5000 hours of use on each amp without ANY issues at all. I do not have any experience with the new lightweight amps...but based on my experience with the EP's....I'd be willing to give the lightweight stuff a try.
Jerica Salava 21.06.2012	that's because you are pessimistic.
Claude Koveleski 21.06.2012	Did it? Good and cheap are not words I would use in the same sentence
Jerica Salava 21.06.2012	I love how this thread goes from "who needs a good cheap amp?" to "you are an idiot using that $400 Behringer for the Daft Punk show" crazy.
Claude Koveleski 21.06.2012	Class D has been around for over 10 years (Lab Gruppen and Camco) I used the sell them back then. It's nothing new. The only new thing about class D is the technology has become cheaper and the bottom end of the market now has a look in. Just because it's a class D does not make it any more bullet proof than an older bi-polar, mossfet, or any other class of amp. Behringer will never be a professional brand for professionals. For the average hobbiest yeah it's okay but there is better and more reliable gear out there. When you have a venue full of punters and your Behringer gear shits itself you will wish you never bought the crap. The fact of the matter is you may not get paid for the gig. The venue may never book you again and the stories spread quickly. Simply not worth it for the sake of another 10-20% outlay. For a small party and bedroom warriors yep go for it however don't expect to be blown away with its quality both in build and sonics.
Dorie Scelzo 21.06.2012	Originally Posted by sobi At best, I'd trust this as a home amp to run a series of studio speakers and/or home DJ rigs. the later, yes. But I doubt they respond quickly enough to transients to run studio monitors. IDK
Erica Charvet 21.06.2012	I'm excited for Class D amps to start taking off a bit more in the PA market. They're smaller, lighter, cheaper to manufacture, draw less current, and are more reliable than the other classes, and this is something that is well proven and documented in the car audio world. There are virtually no practical disadvantage to going class D. It seems people have had good experiences with the Peavey IPR's... I'd really like to get my hands on the 7500's when they come out. I just mentally have a hard time trusting something that only weighs... 10 pounds :P As for Behringer gear... I run four EP2500's, and they have been WELL used over the past 4 years... and I'm not even the original owner. Still no problems. Granted, that series seems to be a bit of a gem for Behringer.
Ashanti Andreacchio 20.06.2012	I had a beheringer mixer some years agao and had it for many years. It needed a cup of coffie spilled inside of it to stop working and the club I usely DJ the have several Beheringer equiptment that have been in use for a long time. I trust them and all equiptmen you tread with a little love will last longer then anything that's just trown around.
Lela Umanskaya 20.06.2012	Bought in 2004, currently sitting behind my couch powering a sub hooked up to my flatscreen. Still waiting for it to fail
Darren Teboe 20.06.2012	Originally Posted by Shishdisma It's really kind of funny, because absolutely nothing you just said matters in the slightest in any practical setting, outside of a sound engineer's circle jerk or a community . and again... when your behringer gear (if it's even remotely close to the old stuff, it IS a matter of WHEN) breaks down mid gig, explain that your your client. I'm sure once they understand how it shouldn't matter because they aren't sound engineers, they'll be quick to hire you do DJ/do sound for them again in the near future. As Rotebass said, if it's sitting in my basement, that's one thing, though even then I might not be comfortable investing in an amp that I feel is bound to fail and/or malfunction fairly quickly like most of their other gear .
Lela Umanskaya 20.06.2012	Originally Posted by Shishdisma Yeah, reliability is really kind of a Sword of Damocles when it comes to Behringer gear. Their new gear is supposedly brought in with a leap in QC, and with that warranty, they're standing by it. But it's going to take a bit of time to prove they are reliable, and even more to convince the snobby engineers they aren't just cheap junk because QSC didn't make it. Which is funny because QSC wasn't always known for quality. The first series of Crown iTechs and XTis all had issues with ribbon cables that rendered the amps inoperable. I always joke that Peavey Blackwidows come with "field replaceable baskets" for a reason
Nancey Inderlied 20.06.2012	Originally Posted by rotebass I have to say you both have valid points. As an engineer, I would never roll out with anything less than my Crown amp rack for any large scale production. My job is to amplify the artist, they don't care about any of the particulars, they don't care if my amp has a three year warranty and I can get a replacement shipped by the end of the week. If my rack goes down, the show doesn't happen, I lose work. As a hobbyist, I have no problems using Behringer gear. I've got a set of B1031's hooked up to my iMac, awesome little rig for iTunes and gaming. I also have no issue with recommending Behringer gear to customers that just want to jam some tunes in their basement. Yeah, reliability is really kind of a Sword of Damocles when it comes to Behringer gear. Their new gear is supposedly brought in with a leap in QC, and with that warranty, they're standing by it. But it's going to take a bit of time to prove they are reliable, and even more to convince the snobby engineers they aren't just cheap junk because QSC didn't make it.

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Cheap BEHRINGER Class D Amps