"Crap for the masses" - What is that exactly?
"Crap for the masses" - What is that exactly? Posted on: 24.06.2012 by Rey Holubar Hi,This is a question for serious discussion and I don't want flaming or any other juvenile "My opinion is better than yours." stuff in this discussion. Everyone has their own tastes and opinions. And everyone should respect that. My issue is, I keep hearing.... "It's crap for the masses!" more and more about different genres of EDM music that tend to make it big (popular) and it sort of worries me, because I can't tell the difference. I mean, are the fortunate songs that go up dance charts and are possibly making the people who made it money suddenly crap productions and musical garbage, just because they became popular? Or is there really some telltale sign (other than popularity) that you can really point out in certain songs, that make them musical crap? I personally can like a song from one genre to another. Some music genres I like more than others. I like certain rock, certain EDM, certain top 40/ pop music, certain classical, certain hip/hop, even some country/ western and some I don't like. It is my taste in music and no one else's. Being a DJ (which I am not one, yet), I would imagine playing "known" (i.e. popular) music is also something useful to get the dance floor rocking. I believe such songs are called "bangers"??? But if popular songs really are just crap for the masses, would I really be a bad DJ for playing such music that I also like? What really defines music as "crap for the masses"? Again, please keep the discussion civilized. scamo | |
Roseanna Signorini 26.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Patch
Not quite sure where the statement "you want to be part of a group ("we") but you disagree with those that you perceive as already being part of that group." has anything to do with the discussion. What group do I want to be a part of? What am I disagreeing about? Who do I perceive to be in that group? |
Brunilda Kora 27.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
"We" don't all have to agree on everything. The biggest shocker of all (brace yourselves...) is that we don't HAVE to have an opinion on anything. Just let it ride. |
Roseanna Signorini 27.06.2012 |
Who know's he may be right, it may be crap, it may be good. As I've said before there's nothing wrong with being accessible and populist as long as what you're doing is good. Avicii (or however you spell it), SHM, Guetta, that's bad music. Somebody like Eric Prydz on the other hand, he does pretty good pop and still understands real dance music, Basement Jaxx have had huge success but I wouldn't lump them in with the crap. See what I mean?
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Devora Chait 27.06.2012 | I believe the genre is messed up. As someone new into the scene I admit that I first thought stuff like Avicii and SWH were genuine House... Safe to say my view on house was that it's crap. Then I started digging a little deeper and I LOVE IT! Really I don't believe the commercial dance tracks should be called house at all. Keep house for actual real house. Don't try to slam the genre on the commercial pop music. That is all. |
26.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
would be equal to this: and that's clearly not right, is it? You may like the dogs playing cards more but critically speaking, it is objectively a less important and more 'crap' picture. It's exactly the same with music. People might like some of this stuff and good for you if you do, but it's clearly crap objectively speaking.
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
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Roseanna Signorini 26.06.2012 | when it comes down to it in the end, its subjective....
And to address the other point about stuff like Guetta, SHM not being objectively crap, if you can't see that they are you don't really get house music tbh, maybe your tastes will mature, maybe not, hell, I still know some guys 35+ who play hard house.
There is a difference between what someone believes is crap and what would be classified as "crap for the masses". For example, I don't particularly like most country music, I believe its crap. Thats just my opinion. Does that mean that all country music is "crap for the masses"? Absolutely not because they are millions of people who love country music. Now believe about someone who loves real downhome, heavey, shitting kicking, guitar twanging country. They love it, then they hear some pop country, that crossover between real country and pop, now to that person that loves the real country, that pop country is "crap for the masses" because its a watered down version of the real thing that is meant to appeal to a broader demographic of people. |
Rey Holubar 26.06.2012 | Hmmmm.... on the Avicii/ Flo Rida example. Avicii helped Flo Rida write "Good Feeling" and the sample of Etta James was used in a couple other productions some time earlier too. Google is my friend. And if you ask me, Etta James has a James Brown touch in her singing style and James' style was also taken a lot from Gospel. All very popular stuff at the time and I guess that was all crap too? What makes Avicii's music crappy? Or Flo Rida's? Because they sampled Etta Jame's singing from a different song and used it quite successfully for their own music? Because they are popular? Slap me for it, if you want to, but I don't believe those songs are crap. I actually like both songs myself and consider them good dance tracks. They have an uplifting spirit, maybe because Etta is in them. Too bad she recently died. But let's get to some facts. Are Levels and Good Feeling musically poor songs? If so, why? scamo |
Christel Croak 26.06.2012 | I really like where you were trying to go with this thread, but I don't believe you're going to be able to get a clear cut answer of what defines "crap for the masses" and "good music". I believe most people on this community have a consensus on what style/feel of music goes in which category, and it's quite clear at the extremes, but near the transition it becomes subjective. The two are distinct on their own, but it's personal preference at which point something becomes to crap. |
26.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by dj gullum
And to address the other point about stuff like Guetta, SHM not being objectively crap, if you can't see that they are you don't really get house music tbh, maybe your tastes will mature, maybe not, hell, I still know some guys 35+ who play hard house. |
Ashanti Andreacchio 26.06.2012 | There is no such thing as Crap for the masses if you don't like it it just might be that what you like is Crap. because no one else likes it. As a DJ in local bars and clubs you need to play "crap"songs for the masses if you have even the smallest plans on making a living out of being a DJ. |
Celestine Porebski 26.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by TCMuc
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Armand Mamula 26.06.2012 | Well, i believe you said it yourself. "My opinion is better than yours/Everyone has their own tastes and opinions." It aint no mo than that, it |
Nikole Resende 26.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
Or to put it somewhat different with the words of Mark Twain: "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."
Originally Posted by deevey
And as to squidot's reply I'd like to refer to my first statement in this post and add: just because somebody likes it doesn't mean it's not crap.
Originally Posted by jakeintox
Sorry if I have to disappoint you, but Avicii is exactly what people mean when they are talking about "crap for the masses" in EDM. So let me fix this for you: Original= Crap for the masses= Some clown, who is even considered crap by people who else mistake crap for originality= [/QUOTE] |
Ethel Feigum 26.06.2012 | Hows this? Original= Crap for the masses= Now, as to whether or not the original is crap or not.... |
Rey Holubar 25.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by deevey
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
Anyway..... Can anyone put up some clear examples of these definitions? Then we can see who actually believes it is poor and why. scamo |
Rolanda Clodfelder 25.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by squidot
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Cole Maroto 25.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by deevey
i don't like a lot of songs, but that doesn't mean they are crap. |
Rolanda Clodfelder 25.06.2012 | #1 in the Irish Charts for 10 weeks ... we win In answer to the OP - crap for the masses IMHO is "music with little or no artistic merit created with the sole aim of money over quality" |
Hipolito Scionti 25.06.2012 | I like this game. Got to number 2 in the UK charts. |
Roseanna Signorini 25.06.2012 | both those are classics and still get the crowd in a frenzy.....+2 |
Jerica Salava 25.06.2012 | one more. SOLID ! : > |
Jerica Salava 25.06.2012 | here's a song that was good and popular: > |
Debby Ramshur 25.06.2012 | A different approach: Maybe we should try to define what we see as great music and how "crap for the masses" differs from that? And I will only refer to Top40/Mainstream/Pop music, because that's what is produced "for the masses". By my definition, great music is about somehow standing out from the rest. How do you do that? You could try to be innovative, bring in new sounds that no one heard before.. but since that's based on trial and error, there will be a lot of pretty bad output - "crap for the hipsters" if you want to call it like that. And then there are people that don't necessarily have to be innovative at doing something because they are incredibly talented and just do the "old thing" better than most others. In the Rock/Pop World that would be Bands with either very good songwriters or excellent individual voices. For me a recent example would be Adele. Absolutely produced for the masses, but still with musical quality. And on the other hand there are songs who are produced on behalf of record labels with the lowest possible risk in mind. You go with traditional song structure, a producer that can offer you the current "flavour of the month" - sound (House-ish now, HipHop & RnB before, Eurodance earlier...) and a well-known singer that already has a solid fanbase. So you could argue that it is formulaic. It's not about producing music that is liked by the most people, it's about producing music that is hated by the least - finding the least common denominator. And if you define great music as somehow standing out, it's clear that this stuff never will be great music for me. The production quality is very good technically, which is not surprising if you see the money that's behind it, and somehow it's acceptable to listen to, but I can't believe of one track that's produced that way and that I would call great music. |
Roseanna Signorini 26.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by doombadger
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Helene Rummans 25.06.2012 |
....are the fortunate songs that go up dance charts and are possibly making the people who made it money suddenly crap productions and musical garbage, just because they became popular?
Not because they're popular but because they're shit. They became popular BECAUSE they're shit. There is a distinct difference between art and entertainment. Artists are driven by a desire to express self in a way that releases an energy that would otherwise drive them insane. Entertainers are c**ts. Hope this clears things up for you. |
25.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
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Nydia Hammon 25.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Sample Seven
But it's my opinion |
Roseanna Signorini 25.06.2012 | Simply put, "crap for the masses" is anything whether it be music, movies, tv, fashion, food, that takes an original idea or concept that a certain group of people may love and waters it down, commericalizes it for the rest of the world. 1 person does it, then everyone is doing it. Its always been this way and it will always be this way. Its just human nature to see success and try to copy it using the same or similar formula. Like lately I have noticed that every commercial that tries to be hip and edgy uses dubstep. So now it gets commercialized and devalues it cuz you hear it all over the place, its generic "crap for the masses". I don't know that I would use song structure as a comparison point to differentiate. All songs are symetric and will always follow a format in groups of 4. Radio friendly is 3-4 min so it has to follow that verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus type formula. If you aren't going for radio friendly you can extend the intro, extend the solo, add a drum break, etc. I mean I guess you could technically call anything that is the radio version "crap for the masses" but not all songs are meant to be 8 min long and sometimes even with house, hearing that extra 8 bars of the drum and bassline is a little boring. I kinda understand both perspectives. With that being said, at times it does make for more interesting tracks when they are longer and don't follow such a regimen of a formula. The other day I was listening to old skool hip hop, like golden age stuff from 1985. Im listening to Roxanne Shante and she is rhyming and rhyming and rhyming, no chorus, no breaks, I didn't count but she must have gone on for like 64 bars without stopping. Remember this was 1985, hip hop was just rap and still considered a passing fad, it was still in the street, and not even close to getting on mainstream radio. You would never hear that now, now it all follows that formula, 16 bar verse, hook, verse 2, hook, guest verse, hook...rinse and repeat for every track. So I start listeing to more old school, KRS-one, Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, and my head starts bobbing and I'm believeing now this, this is what its all about. Todays hip hop doesn't have that passion, that soul, the rawness, the grit that was going on back then. Even though the flows were more basic, the inflection and the rhythm in their voices just doesn't exist anymore. Drake or Lil wayne, couldn't hold a candle to Rakim or Big Daddy Kane. The beats were basic drums, claps, scratches, basslines, they were just dirty and gritty, now you have these epic symphonies, did it evolve or just become "crap for the masses"? |
Rey Holubar 24.06.2012 | @Miec, Thanks. That is a nice and long explanation. Thanks for the effort and that got me believeing. I looked this up from your post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_st...popular_music) So, and this is for everyone, would a bad house track possibly "made for the masses" have a song structure more like in the Wikipedia article? Because, maybe I am not deep enough into the scene, but I actually look out for tracks that have more song structure, because I find them more entertaining. I personally don't like it, for instance, when a track has the same repetitive section lasting for more than 32 beats. The first thing I say to myself is "boooring". For instance, when I listen to tracks on Beatport, I listen to the first 16 beats. If it catches my ear in the first 8-16 or so, I continue listening. Then I click forward to the middle of the clip they give you to listen to. If I hear a sudden different sound (chorus/ bridge), then I continue listening, if I like it. Then after some more bars of listening, I then click to the back of the clip and listen. If that sounds good too, then I usually buy the track. I want to be entertained with a track and I need to feel a "groove" with the beat and sooo much house music doesn't give me this. Am I strange or not a true "house" lover, to want more song structure? Am I just a "masses drone" too? I could care less actually. It would just be interesting to know, because I consider a lot of house music pretty poor. But then, a lot of pop music I consider pretty poor too. And back to Miec. I believe you are right. Calling any form of art "crap" just isn't really right. People creating stuff (no matter what it is) is good. If it is an art form being created, it's use is primarily for entertainment purposes in my eyes. That means, someone creates a piece of art (house track) for others to be impressed by (and entertained). So the basic rule of art is 1) personal expression and 2) to entertain. Well, that is my personal view. I or anyone else may not like a piece of art, however, what is important to note is, being creative is also what makes us humans. If we couldn't be creative, we'd all still be sitting on jungle floors or in trees eating bananas. We should cherish our ability as humans to be creative and just leave art forms that we don't like simply alone. No judgments, no "crap" comments...please. scamo |
Celestine Porebski 24.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Miec
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24.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Sample Seven
Things can be great and popular, but frequently they aren't. |
Julius Schoenhofer 24.06.2012 | I am really, really, really sick of the notion that just because something is popular, it's bad. |
Debby Ramshur 24.06.2012 | One thing that separates "true" house music from house-like pop music is song structure. While those tunes from Guetta feat. random R&B artist, Calvin Harris and so many others borrow Tempo (128 bpm) and Instrumentation (dominant 4/4 bass drum, clap on the 2 and 4, hi-hats on the 8ths, Avicii-esque synths) from House music but when it comes to song structure, they are a lot closer to Rock. They nearly all follow a verse - chorus - verse - chorus - bridge - chorus - chorus scheme that essentially hasn't changed since the Beatles. "Real" House music on the other hand has a drastically different structure based on elements being added or removed at the beginning of every phrase (I believe someone else can explain this better than I can) leading to tracks that are 6 to 15 minutes long. And if you believe about it, those Mainstream artists hardly have another chance since they must be suitable to be played at radio stations and thus are not allowed to exceed 3 to 4 minutes in length. And since the "mainstream" radio listener doesn't want to hear anything different to the accepted scheme, it's very rare that Radio Edits of longer house tracks reach the same popularity as those produced to the Rock scheme. Levels being the only exception I can believe of at the moment. Also, Vocals are very different in house music and mainstream sound-a-likes. While real house mostly (there are exceptions... talking about Jack and his groove) use vocals in a repetitive sense to add to the track (more like an instrument), mainstream tracks try to tell some kind of story (how irrelevant it may be). You could say, that house music are "tracks" in the original sense of the word, while Guetta, Calvin Harris & Co. produce "songs". That is not a new phenomenon by the way, not at all. Look at early Hip-Hop that was largely based around sampling and scratching and how nearly all chart-topping hip-hop since the late 90s incorporated the scheme mentioned above. Sure, you can produce exceptional music within that framework, but you are a lot more limited in options where you can stand out. In Rock music it was either about great lyrics or singers with great voices, but within what is called "crap for the masses" now, there isn't anything extraordinary. It's basically auto-tuned mediocre singers, singing about how much they drank and who they fucked last evening and that simply isn't enough to impress musically. And since some househeads are really scared by the sheer popularity of that stuff they try to portray it as inferior to "the real stuff". And again that's nothing new. I'm sure you could hear some punk fans referring to Blink182 or Offspring as "crap for the masses" in the 90s. In the end, I believe it's an understandable reaction to defend the music you love by trying to create a distinction. But instead of trying to distinguish in the way i tried above it's done by portraying one form of music as qualitatively superior. And the recent events around DJs getting kicked off the decks show, that there is a misunderstanding with Club Owners and promoters who believe that people who listen to house-like Pop want to listen to House music. So, it is necessary to find different names, but I'm not the one to judge if "crap for the masses" is the right way to express it. |
25.06.2012 | It's nothing to do with complexity imo, some of the best house tracks are very stripped down. I believe the feel of the drums is a lot of the house sound. |
Rey Holubar 25.06.2012 | This is an interesting statement and it is similar to saying a song is "crap music for the masses".
Good house music is too complex for the masses.
I want to understand the differences musically. Can anyone point the differences out with clear examples in a musical comparison and with factually based musical arguments? Or is it really down to personal tastes in the end, what crap is and what isn't? scamo |
24.06.2012 | Exactly, you can be underground and accessible. It's not the same as churning out lowest common denominator edm. |
Len Lukawski 24.06.2012 | I always thought this was interesting. Mr Oizo's Flat Beat. Take away the video and you have a clearly non-commercial track designed for people who liked to "proper" electronic music. I had friends of my parents telling me how much they "loved" the record. They promise it wasn't just the video Senior Directors of large corporations suddenly loving a track which quickly become number one in the UK because of.... |
Jerica Salava 24.06.2012 | In Miami we have the huge superclubs that fly in super DJ's to play crap for the masses and then we have the little indie clubs that believe they are so cool, when really they don't have a clue. Unfortunately, only the gay clubs get it right here. |
24.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Era 7
Just the same as ever there isn't the same level of exposure for the better music, and if people don't know any better then it's not really their fault. |
Tesha Freudenstein 24.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
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