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"Crap for the masses" - What is that exactly?

Home :: General Discussion :: "Crap for the masses" - What is that exactly?Reply

"Crap for the masses" - What is that exactly? Posted on: 24.06.2012 by Rey Holubar Hi, This is a question for serious discussion and I don't want flaming or any other juvenile "My opinion is better than yours." stuff in this discussion. Everyone has their own tastes and opinions. And everyone should respect that. My issue is, I keep hearing.... "It's crap for the masses!" more and more about different genres of EDM music that tend to make it big (popular) and it sort of worries me, because I can't tell the difference. I mean, are the fortunate songs that go up dance charts and are possibly making the people who made it money suddenly crap productions and musical garbage, just because they became popular? Or is there really some telltale sign (other than popularity) that you can really point out in certain songs, that make them musical crap? I personally can like a song from one genre to another. Some music genres I like more than others. I like certain rock, certain EDM, certain top 40/ pop music, certain classical, certain hip/hop, even some country/ western and some I don't like. It is my taste in music and no one else's. Being a DJ (which I am not one, yet), I would imagine playing "known" (i.e. popular) music is also something useful to get the dance floor rocking. I believe such songs are called "bangers"??? But if popular songs really are just crap for the masses, would I really be a bad DJ for playing such music that I also like? What really defines music as "crap for the masses"? Again, please keep the discussion civilized. scamo
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Rey Holubar 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by Jack Bastard If you're right (and you definitely aren't imo) somebody had better tell all the writers, journalists, academics and critics that humanity has been wasting it's time analysing the arts for thousands of years then. People who analyze or critique art forms are also only giving up their subjective opinions of it. They may have a foundation of knowledge on the art form to base a more objective opinion on why it may be poorly done, but it still comes down to an opinion, which is subjective. Their opinions may carry some more weight too, because of their "profession" and thus, may persuade people in their opinion one way or another. But still, a critique is just an opinion. Critique is subjective and yes, in the end, is only worth the air it is spoken or the ink it is written with. You know what, if I'd ever become good enough at creating EDM, I am going to name my first album "Crap for the masses". Why? Because I'd really love my music to become very popular and I'd really love to have a ton of people dancing to my music and enjoying it and I'd love to spite the haters who believe they have a better opinion of music than everyone else, when actually they don't. And since my album would be called "Crap for the masses", then they'd be right too anyway, without even trying, so they couldn't hate it, because it makes them right to begin with. Hehehehe.... scamo
Lela Umanskaya 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by Jack Bastard I don't need to argue otherwise, yours is the minority position. If you believe that received wisdom is wrong it's up to you to explain or prove your beliefs. (And of course I have links to back up what I'm saying, the internet is rammed with stuff about this sort of thing, written by people much better read and cleverer than you and I). I'm still waiting for this "wisdom"...
27.06.2012	Originally Posted by rotebass Got any links to back up your cork sniffery? Art is unquantifiable. Try to argue otherwise I don't need to argue otherwise, yours is the minority position. If you believe that received wisdom is wrong it's up to you to explain or prove your beliefs. (And of course I have links to back up what I'm saying, the internet is rammed with stuff about this sort of thing, written by people much better read and cleverer than you and I).
Lela Umanskaya 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by Jack Bastard If you're right (and you definitely aren't imo) somebody had better tell all the writers, journalists, academics and critics that humanity has been wasting it's time analysing the arts for thousands of years then. Music and Art critique is largely a waste of time. No reputable academic would waste their time trying to quantify the "good" or "bad" in art.
27.06.2012	Originally Posted by scamo I believe the McDonalds analogy isn't quite working for me yet. It is food and as food, it should be healthy. And in order for food to be healthy, it needs to meet certain criteria. As such, with this criteria I do have something to base an objective opinion on it. Is it healthy or not? I could say, McDonalds food sucks, because it is unhealthy in many cases. Too much fat. Too many calories. Etc. But, do I still eat it from time to time. You bet. And I actually enjoy it too. But I wouldn't eat it all the time. It's sort of like Dubstep. LOL! Eh? Since when do you judge food on how healthy it is? You don't, you judge it on if it's any good or not. Originally Posted by scamo But for sure, I don't really know, because I don't have this basic knowledge needed for an objective opinion on what makes music "crap for the masses". That is what I am trying to pull out of you guys. Tell you what, try comparing say, Dark Side of The Moon with the last Alvin and the Chipmunks album. By your logic they are equal. That's clearly not true either is it? This is my last attempt at explanation, if you don't get it after this I can only assume your taste in music sucks.
Armand Mamula 27.06.2012	Totally agreed with Patch there, but another funny thing IS, that people tend to make it in their heads that there have to be opinions, otherwise, where would we end up?...crap for the masses? It
Rey Holubar 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by Jack Bastard If you're right (and you definitely aren't imo) somebody had better tell all the writers, journalists, academics and critics that humanity has been wasting it's time analysing the arts for thousands of years then. People who analyze or critique art forms are also only giving up their subjective opinions of it. They may have a foundation of knowledge on the art form to base a more objective opinion on why it may be poorly done, but it still comes down to an opinion, which is subjective. Their opinions may carry some more weight too, because of their "profession" and thus, may persuade people in their opinion one way or another. But still, a critique is just an opinion. Critique is subjective and yes, in the end, is only worth the air it is spoken or the ink it is written with. You know what, if I'd ever become good enough at creating EDM, I am going to name my first album "Crap for the masses". Why? Because I'd really love my music to become very popular and I'd really love to have a ton of people dancing to my music and enjoying it and I'd love to spite the haters who believe they have a better opinion of music than everyone else, when actually they don't. And since my album would be called "Crap for the masses", then they'd be right too anyway, without even trying, so they couldn't hate it, because it makes them right to begin with. Hehehehe.... scamo
Roseanna Signorini 27.06.2012	Music and art is and always will be subjective. You can argue until you are blue in the face but the mere fact that someone can hate country music with a passion and someone else could love country music with a passion is proof. I can hear a song and either like it, or hate it on the merits of that song and that song alone. I don't need to compare it to anything else. Every example you gave with your objective point of view is comparing it to another object as a point of reference. Do I believe Alvin and the Chipmunks is better than Darkside of the Moon, no not at all. But I bet a classroom full of 7 year olds believes Alvin and the Chipmunks is way better than Darkside of the Moon. So just to make sure I got this right...if you say something sucks...then it must suck, even if someone else loves it because according to you music is objective and it can't suck and be good at the same time...correct? Lets look at it another way. Logic is objective. If A>B and B>C then A>C, correct? If I like David Guetta songs and David Guetta has 50 songs, then I like 50 David Guetta songs...correct? OR is it possible that I may like only 10 songs. According to you I can't only like 10 songs because its objective and the logic says if you like David Guetta songs you have to like 50 David Guetta songs. Right?
Lela Umanskaya 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by Jack Bastard I don't need to argue otherwise, yours is the minority position. If you believe that received wisdom is wrong it's up to you to explain or prove your beliefs. (And of course I have links to back up what I'm saying, the internet is rammed with stuff about this sort of thing, written by people much better read and cleverer than you and I). I'm still waiting for this "wisdom"...
27.06.2012	Originally Posted by rotebass Got any links to back up your cork sniffery? Art is unquantifiable. Try to argue otherwise I don't need to argue otherwise, yours is the minority position. If you believe that received wisdom is wrong it's up to you to explain or prove your beliefs. (And of course I have links to back up what I'm saying, the internet is rammed with stuff about this sort of thing, written by people much better read and cleverer than you and I).
Lela Umanskaya 27.06.2012	Got any links to back up your cork sniffery? Art is unquantifiable. Try to argue otherwise
27.06.2012	Really? Got any links to back up your supposition?
Lela Umanskaya 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by Jack Bastard If you're right (and you definitely aren't imo) somebody had better tell all the writers, journalists, academics and critics that humanity has been wasting it's time analysing the arts for thousands of years then. Music and Art critique is largely a waste of time. No reputable academic would waste their time trying to quantify the "good" or "bad" in art.
27.06.2012	If you're right (and you definitely aren't imo) somebody had better tell all the writers, journalists, academics and critics that humanity has been wasting it's time analysing the arts for thousands of years then.
Rey Holubar 28.06.2012	I believe that is actually the whole point. Nobody's taste in music can really suck and it is wrong for anyone to judge someone else's taste in music as being crap. If I like Alvin and the Chipmunks, then that is my taste in music. It doesn't suck. Not to me. It may suck to you. But that is your personal opinion and taste. There is no real right or wrong in musical tastes, because the enjoyment of music is a purely subjective human process. scamo
27.06.2012	Originally Posted by scamo I believe the McDonalds analogy isn't quite working for me yet. It is food and as food, it should be healthy. And in order for food to be healthy, it needs to meet certain criteria. As such, with this criteria I do have something to base an objective opinion on it. Is it healthy or not? I could say, McDonalds food sucks, because it is unhealthy in many cases. Too much fat. Too many calories. Etc. But, do I still eat it from time to time. You bet. And I actually enjoy it too. But I wouldn't eat it all the time. It's sort of like Dubstep. LOL! Eh? Since when do you judge food on how healthy it is? You don't, you judge it on if it's any good or not. Originally Posted by scamo But for sure, I don't really know, because I don't have this basic knowledge needed for an objective opinion on what makes music "crap for the masses". That is what I am trying to pull out of you guys. Tell you what, try comparing say, Dark Side of The Moon with the last Alvin and the Chipmunks album. By your logic they are equal. That's clearly not true either is it? This is my last attempt at explanation, if you don't get it after this I can only assume your taste in music sucks.
Freida Leash 27.06.2012	Mc Donalds at the Narita airport in Japan is the best hands down experience I've had at any of their restaurants from the US to Europe and beyond. I actually eat at one when I visit another country, mostly to see how the menu differs, Philippines they have fried chicken on the cheap menu, Hawaii coconut fried pies. Mickey D's changes location to location for the audience, in that respect it is better than a canned set.
Nikole Resende 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by squidot i don't believe it's quite fair to compare mcdonalds to popular music. i fail to see how anyone can argue against the quality of this music from a technical standpoint. it's produced amazingly, sounds huge, and is created on the highest caliber of gear . I disagree with you on this point. From a technical standpoint McDonalds food is of a very high quality. Thousands of burgers every day and each and everyone tastes the same! Many other restaurants can't hold that standard. Keeping up the same quality level in ingredients and preparation is an achievement only a big company like McDonalds can reach. Also, the food is made on high quality gear . About the "sounds huge" argument: McDonalds tastes huge, too, because it is full of artificial flavors. The reason why those tracks sound huge is that the producers also refer to formulas that have been tested over and over again and know exactly what buttons to trigger (literally and figuratively) in order to get that effect. From a technical standpoint both are of very high quality. It's the content that makes the difference...
Era Roka 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by scamo I believe such songs are called "bangers"??? I believe that is saying enough.
Rey Holubar 27.06.2012	I believe the McDonalds analogy isn't quite working for me yet. It is food and as food, it should be healthy. And in order for food to be healthy, it needs to meet certain criteria. As such, with this criteria I do have something to base an objective opinion on it. Is it healthy or not? I could say, McDonalds food sucks, because it is unhealthy in many cases. Too much fat. Too many calories. Etc. But, do I still eat it from time to time. You bet. And I actually enjoy it too. But I wouldn't eat it all the time. It's sort of like Dubstep. LOL! So let's continue the subjective/ objective path. What musical basis and fact can we use to objectively place on certain songs to put them in a "crap for the masses" category? I bet no one can actually name any facts. But I bet, someone with a strong musical background or music production background could name a lot of mistakes anyone could make in the music creation or production processes. And then I bet these facts would actually be issues with a lot of EDM tracks (or any other music genre for that matter) and they are not necessarily issues with tracks that have made it to "liked by the masses" either. But for sure, I don't really know, because I don't have this basic knowledge needed for an objective opinion on what makes music "crap for the masses". That is what I am trying to pull out of you guys. Funny thing is too, I've been reading a book on music production and mastering and there are basic rules to go by, but very often the writer says, "it is simply subjective". He even goes so far to say that mastering a track is even an art form in itself. Which also means in the end, there is no completely right or wrong way of doing it, as long as what comes out in the end is acceptable to the person doing the mastering and his customers, the producer, the artists and the listeners. scamo
Neva Lahr 26.06.2012	There is "form" and there is "content." As mentioned by other, "crap for the masses" has great form. It's the content that is questionable.
Ardell Lafranchi 26.06.2012	posted a similar article a while ago
26.06.2012	Originally Posted by squidot i don't believe it's quite fair to compare mcdonalds to popular music. i fail to see how anyone can argue against the quality of this music from a technical standpoint. it's produced amazingly, sounds huge, and is created on the highest caliber of gear . you just don't like the flavor of it. it would be like if mcdonalds started making a natural, grass fed ribeye but marinated it in their chicken mcnugget sauce. the main ingredient is quality, but the sauce can cheapen it for many people who don't like the flavor. Actually I'd say the opposite was true and the McDonalds analogy holds, the ingredients are pretty poor and bland but the processing makes it edible. What you say about the production is true, it is big, it is glossy, it's just empty at it's heart.
Cole Maroto 26.06.2012	Originally Posted by Jack Bastard People might like it but that doesn't make it objectively good. Dunno how many other ways I can try and communicate this to you, like McDonalds is the one of the leading food brands worldwide, but you wouldn't say it's good food. i believe anything in art or music can only be subjectively good and i agree with matt blaze on this one. i highly doubt there is one song in the world that everyone likes. i don't believe it's quite fair to compare mcdonalds to popular music. i fail to see how anyone can argue against the quality of this music from a technical standpoint. it's produced amazingly, sounds huge, and is created on the highest caliber of gear . you just don't like the flavor of it. it would be like if mcdonalds started making a natural, grass fed ribeye but marinated it in their chicken mcnugget sauce. the main ingredient is quality, but the sauce can cheapen it for many people who don't like the flavor. Originally Posted by Jack Bastard I don't subscribe to this relativist (ie any music is as good as other music) ideology of yours mainly because over my djing career I've met loads of different styles of dj but you can always tell when someone is playing great dance music, no matter what they're playing, even if you know nothing about it. i don't agree with your ideal on this and i do believe that any music is as good as another other music to different people. do you believe you can take the best produced dnb, drop it for people who love country music and believe they will know it's great dance music? no, most of them are going to hate it, which is subjectively their opinion. that doesn't make it crap.
Nikole Resende 26.06.2012	Originally Posted by Jack Bastard People might like it but that doesn't make it objectively good. Dunno how many other ways I can try and communicate this to you, like McDonalds is the one of the leading food brands worldwide, but you wouldn't say it's good food. I don't subscribe to this relativist (ie any music is as good as other music) ideology of yours mainly because over my djing career I've met loads of different styles of dj but you can always tell when someone is playing great dance music, no matter what they're playing, even if you know nothing about it. Exactly this! I've used the McDonald's analogy myself before, and one could as well go one step further: "Let's eat sht, billions of flys can't be wrong...." The point being: the shere number of people who like something does not mean anything. Actually, very often the opposite is true: too make a lot of people like something, you have to find the smallest common denominator, which usually means leaving out everything interesting, as it could also be disturbing or "heavy to digest". Or, as someone put it regarding DJing: "If you don't clear the floor from time to time, you're not challenging your audience enough..." Of course there are tracks (or more generally: works of art) that become popular, like the afore mentioned examples of Stardust, etc., but those tracks weren't meant to become hits, it just happened. On the other hand the tracks from SHM, David Guetta et al. were made with a single goal in mind: to be commercially successful. And, even if this might be controversial for some, YOU CAN HEAR A DIFFERENCE!!! If you have a deep musical background, you can actually tell if the producer of a record was trying to make an original piece of music, that reflects his current state as an artist, or if he was trying to - again - find the formula that makes as many people as possible like his record so he can make a shtload of money from it. It's hard to tell. Maybe another good example is wine, where some people only can differentiate between red and white, whereas others can tell what grape from which region was used. It's all in the details, and if you don't know where to search for it, you won't see a difference. But once you figure it out, it's more than obvious, and you start to wonder why somebody else doesn't see it....
26.06.2012	Originally Posted by dj matt blaze But who are you to say its bad? Who am I to say its good? You might believes its crap, I might believes its great, who are we to judge something to label it as definitely this or that, its a subjective opinion. Millions of people find Guetta, Avicii, pleasing to their ears, do they believe its crap? Who is anyone to minimalize someone elses opinion as not qualified and to make their own opinion the law? I couldn't paint that picture of dogs playing poker to save my life, if i could I would believe its awesome. Is it the sistine chapel, no, but Im quite sure somewhere in the world its hanging on a wall because someone thought it is a great piece of art. Who am I to say it isn't? People might like it but that doesn't make it objectively good. Dunno how many other ways I can try and communicate this to you, like McDonalds is the one of the leading food brands worldwide, but you wouldn't say it's good food. I don't subscribe to this relativist (ie any music is as good as other music) ideology of yours mainly because over my djing career I've met loads of different styles of dj but you can always tell when someone is playing great dance music, no matter what they're playing, even if you know nothing about it.

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"Crap for the masses" - What is that exactly?