Clipping & Line Levels
Clipping & Line Levels Posted on: 21.05.2009 by Doug Bieling Ok guys,There doesnt seem to be a thread that explains clipping and how to avoid and i could do with some more info on it so come on lest have it I know what clipping is but how do i know its happening? Red lights on my mixer ? is it as simple as that ? but can it clip before the mixer ie in traktor ? how do i know its happening ? then i guess it can happen as it goes through the amp ? how do i know ? How do you guys keep a handle on clipping audio. Educate me Many Thanks in advance all Gav | |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 22.05.2009 |
Originally Posted by BentoSan
All autogain does is set all tracks at either + or - 0.0 db . This is determined in the analysis of a track. In theory if 2 tracks of totally different volumes are loaded into 2 decks the and the channel faders are at the same level they will play at the same volume when Autogain is on. |
| Roberto Viccione 22.05.2009 |
Originally Posted by BentoSan
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| Xavier Emanuels 22.05.2009 |
Originally Posted by MisterMoleyMole
Trust the meters that are on the two line levels and the master meter, and most imporantly trust your ears above anything else. |
| Doug Bieling 22.05.2009 | ahh ok .... so, what i was playing with last evening
was just leaving auto gain feature on for the channels in traktor as that would prevent clipping, then turning the master down in traktor so no red lights, then just making sure no red lights on djm600 channels or master. Voila ... no clipping ?? |
| Xavier Emanuels 22.05.2009 |
Originally Posted by MisterMoleyMole
I was saying that if you turn the deck gain too high, even if you turn the master volume down that all you are doing is reducing the gain of a peaked signal and it will still sound like crap. You want to make sure your not peaking on the on any of the deck at the same time as making sure your not peaking on the master meter. If your mixing externally you just need to worry about the individual decks not peaking and not the master meter at the top of the software. Instead for the master mix you need to be keeping an eye on the master channel on the mixer to make sure thats not clipping. |
| Doug Bieling 22.05.2009 |
Originally Posted by BentoSan
So are we saying here that the auto gain in traktor could possibly gain to a point that the track will be clipping ? Cheers Gav |
| Mechelle Duncil 21.05.2009 |
Originally Posted by BentoSan
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22.05.2009 |
Originally Posted by BentoSan
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| Hertha Fang 22.05.2009 | Now that I have started mixing on 4 decks it makes clipping such a pita, really makes your monitor and constantly edit your levels to make room for new tracks. Also I feel like the DJIO has a weak preamp and makes me sound less loud than my labwerx compatriots. Maybe it is time for a new soundcard soon. |
| Xavier Emanuels 21.05.2009 | Actually i believe its a bit more complicated then making sure that the light at the top of the program isnt clipping. You need to keep an eye on the lights the volume fader is putting out and make sure its not clipping there. Think about it, if your clipping the hell out of your deck gain then reduce the master volume all you are doing is reducing the gain of an already clipped signal. You need to make sure that nothing is clipping anywhere along the way of the signal chain. So you have to make sure the individual decks arnt clipping, the master mix isnt clipping and at the same time your not clipping the mixers line in. Id suggest working in that order, first make sure your individual decks arnt clipping, then make sure your master out isnt clipping then check the line on the mixer to make sure thats not clipping either. Keep an eye on your levels constantly ! Digital will sound crystal clear up to the point where it starts to clip while analogue with analogue the sound will graduarly degrade the more you clip the output. It doesnt matter if your mixing in or out of the box a good dj keeps all the levels in check every step along the signal chain. |
| Roberto Viccione 21.05.2009 | Alright. The best bet for me is to pick a song I know really well, like, you know all those secret little effects they put in that you have to listen to a song a million times to really hear, and you sit and listen to it. You tweak it over and over again until it sounds right. Now use that as a reference for all of the other stuff you're mixing as well. You'll know it'll at least sound close to right and tweak the little things on a track by track basis. |
| Doug Bieling 21.05.2009 | ahh ok .. well many thanks for the info i will have a play toevening and see if i notice a difference |
| Roberto Viccione 21.05.2009 | Well, I always use autogain also. Pretty much I spend more of my time tweaking my EQ and volume levels to keep everything smooth, as well as slight blends with my crossfader. The autogain doesn't bring it to red, it just makes sure the gain is all normalized and equal. Unfortunately Traktor doesn't have the colored LED's, so it becomes more of a pain in the ass. |
| Doug Bieling 21.05.2009 | Maybe the autogain feature then, as that takes each channel to border red doesnt it? So when you got two/three/four tracks playing that must be being limited at the master? |
| Roberto Viccione 21.05.2009 | Well, the limiter isn't a bad thing, man. It's a balance thing. Having it on as a safety precaution is good. I always have mine on. But I take time to make sure my levels are set appropriately so I don't have to use it. If you rely on the limiter to keep your levels even it will just slowly wind down the dynamics and eventually you'll clip anyway. Really the readout shouldn't be bouncing in the red that much. Hell, you should see the wave forms I record for friends. They are so small. But they still sound loud. |
| Doug Bieling 21.05.2009 | Never knew this .. everyday is a school day. When i get home this evening the limiter will be permanantly turned off!!! |
| Roberto Viccione 21.05.2009 | You don't want to rely on a limiter to keep you from clipping. It will take all of the oomph and power out of your music. |
| Dotty Fadeley 21.05.2009 | I know there are issues with Ableton & Traktor syncing but what about simply routing audio to Ableton from Traktor? Would it be possible to basically just use ableton as one master level? If so you could easily use their master limiter for this. A little overkill for a clipping issue but just a thought. |
| Roberto Viccione 21.05.2009 | The point you know you're really clipping is when you hear it. The best way to avoid clipping is to set your levels on your mixer to a sustainable level. I would do this by getting the sound out of Traktor, in my headphones, to a sound and quality I like. Then I send it to the mixer and, leaving the gain and EQ toward the middle, turn up the volume. I'd set it to around "6" or above half but less than three quarters up. Now I fine tune it with the EQ and gain on the mixer (if I'm using one, if not just the VCI-100. If you're using Auto Gain then make sure the Master Out levels never hit a certain point). Assuming I'm using an external mixer to hit the speakers (which I almost always am), I follow the red line, and cross reference that with my ears by going to the dance floor, toward the middle and listening to it. Realistically you want to provide the most pleasant listening experience for your crowd. So make sure it isn't too loud, especially when it's early, and as the evening goes on, keep checking. Try to keep the gain readouts toward the same level, as this will normalize the sound as you increase the volume. There are a few threads here on gain/clipping use. If you start to clip, I'd just tweak the gain down, and the EQ. I've found that it starts sounding a LOT better as you do this, but you won't lose the oomph of the track. You might actually start getting it back. |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 21.05.2009 | Autogain only levels out the volumes of the tracks. Limiter will stop Clipping but many people dont like limiters as they suck the life out of a track to stop clipping. Best just to set your master volume lower and ride the channel faders or use autogain in PRO or the the Gain controls on the Mixer (if it has them) |
| Doug Bieling 21.05.2009 |
Originally Posted by Jack Bastard
With regards to traktor though it has autogain which seems to take it into the red slightly. Does this mean i'm clipping ? |
21.05.2009 | Make sure that none of your meters are banging against the end into the red. That goes from the channel gain to the traktor master output to the channel gain on the mixer to the output of the mixer to the output of the amp. RED=BAD (Unless you're using a Pioneer mixer, which seem to be setup so that you have to go a bit into the red) |
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