Clipping & Line Levels
Clipping & Line Levels Posted on: 21.05.2009 by Doug Bieling Ok guys,There doesnt seem to be a thread that explains clipping and how to avoid and i could do with some more info on it so come on lest have it I know what clipping is but how do i know its happening? Red lights on my mixer ? is it as simple as that ? but can it clip before the mixer ie in traktor ? how do i know its happening ? then i guess it can happen as it goes through the amp ? how do i know ? How do you guys keep a handle on clipping audio. Educate me Many Thanks in advance all Gav | |
| Willard Battley 16.10.2012 | Sorry guys for reposting these questions if you have any answers or few informations / knowledge I will greatly appreciate. I have some troubles with the following example let me explain to you : I drop a song which starts by a breakdown. The gain will not be a the same level than the other song because the other one is not really in a breakdown. The problem is that I want to make it heared a bit more so I increase the gain to reach the same level of the first one. However when the basses kick in, it is now too loud so I need to decrease the gain back and fastly. What would you recommand me to do ? Do like this or maybe increase the EQ and then decrease them when the bass kick in ? Also when you want to set the gain level to the first track how do you ? As a gain basis to work with or to set to the first track level, do you use the gain of the instant when you mix the second track in ? Or do look for the loudest part of the song and use this moment gain as a basis to set the gain vene if it is not at that moment of the track that you will use for your mix ? I hope it was not so complicated ;-) Thank you a lot guys J |
| Willard Battley 15.10.2012 | So you keep one fader at 100 % and the other one at a lower position ? If it's like this, it sounds strange to me because the songs will not be at the same level no ? I'm still fighting with all these gains and volume settings and how to manage with the gain adjustments Thank you J |
| Willard Battley 14.10.2012 | I have some troubles with the following example let me explain to you : I drop a song which starts by a breakdown. The gain will not be a the same level than the other song because the other one is not really in a breakdown. The problem is that I want to make it heared a bit more so I increase the gain to reach the same level of the first one. However when the basses kick in, it is now too loud so I need to decrease the gain back and fastly. What would you recommand me to do ? Do like this or maybe increase the EQ and then decrease them when the bass kick in ? Also when you want to set the gain level to the first track how do you ? As a gain basis to work with or to set to the first track level, do you use the gain of the instant when you mix the second track in ? Or do look for the loudest part of the song and use this moment gain as a basis to set the gain vene if it is not at that moment of the track that you will use for your mix ? I hope it was not so complicated ;-) Thank you a lot guys J |
| Willard Battley 16.10.2012 | Sorry guys for reposting these questions if you have any answers or few informations / knowledge I will greatly appreciate. I have some troubles with the following example let me explain to you : I drop a song which starts by a breakdown. The gain will not be a the same level than the other song because the other one is not really in a breakdown. The problem is that I want to make it heared a bit more so I increase the gain to reach the same level of the first one. However when the basses kick in, it is now too loud so I need to decrease the gain back and fastly. What would you recommand me to do ? Do like this or maybe increase the EQ and then decrease them when the bass kick in ? Also when you want to set the gain level to the first track how do you ? As a gain basis to work with or to set to the first track level, do you use the gain of the instant when you mix the second track in ? Or do look for the loudest part of the song and use this moment gain as a basis to set the gain vene if it is not at that moment of the track that you will use for your mix ? I hope it was not so complicated ;-) Thank you a lot guys J |
| Willard Battley 15.10.2012 | So you keep one fader at 100 % and the other one at a lower position ? If it's like this, it sounds strange to me because the songs will not be at the same level no ? I'm still fighting with all these gains and volume settings and how to manage with the gain adjustments Thank you J |
| Willard Battley 14.10.2012 | I have some troubles with the following example let me explain to you : I drop a song which starts by a breakdown. The gain will not be a the same level than the other song because the other one is not really in a breakdown. The problem is that I want to make it heared a bit more so I increase the gain to reach the same level of the first one. However when the basses kick in, it is now too loud so I need to decrease the gain back and fastly. What would you recommand me to do ? Do like this or maybe increase the EQ and then decrease them when the bass kick in ? Also when you want to set the gain level to the first track how do you ? As a gain basis to work with or to set to the first track level, do you use the gain of the instant when you mix the second track in ? Or do look for the loudest part of the song and use this moment gain as a basis to set the gain vene if it is not at that moment of the track that you will use for your mix ? I hope it was not so complicated ;-) Thank you a lot guys J |
| Willard Battley 16.10.2012 | Sorry guys for reposting these questions if you have any answers or few informations / knowledge I will greatly appreciate. I have some troubles with the following example let me explain to you : I drop a song which starts by a breakdown. The gain will not be a the same level than the other song because the other one is not really in a breakdown. The problem is that I want to make it heared a bit more so I increase the gain to reach the same level of the first one. However when the basses kick in, it is now too loud so I need to decrease the gain back and fastly. What would you recommand me to do ? Do like this or maybe increase the EQ and then decrease them when the bass kick in ? Also when you want to set the gain level to the first track how do you ? As a gain basis to work with or to set to the first track level, do you use the gain of the instant when you mix the second track in ? Or do look for the loudest part of the song and use this moment gain as a basis to set the gain vene if it is not at that moment of the track that you will use for your mix ? I hope it was not so complicated ;-) Thank you a lot guys J |
| Willard Battley 15.10.2012 | So you keep one fader at 100 % and the other one at a lower position ? If it's like this, it sounds strange to me because the songs will not be at the same level no ? I'm still fighting with all these gains and volume settings and how to manage with the gain adjustments Thank you J |
| Willard Battley 14.10.2012 | I have some troubles with the following example let me explain to you : I drop a song which starts by a breakdown. The gain will not be a the same level than the other song because the other one is not really in a breakdown. The problem is that I want to make it heared a bit more so I increase the gain to reach the same level of the first one. However when the basses kick in, it is now too loud so I need to decrease the gain back and fastly. What would you recommand me to do ? Do like this or maybe increase the EQ and then decrease them when the bass kick in ? Also when you want to set the gain level to the first track how do you ? As a gain basis to work with or to set to the first track level, do you use the gain of the instant when you mix the second track in ? Or do look for the loudest part of the song and use this moment gain as a basis to set the gain vene if it is not at that moment of the track that you will use for your mix ? I hope it was not so complicated ;-) Thank you a lot guys J |
| Willard Battley 16.10.2012 | Sorry guys for reposting these questions if you have any answers or few informations / knowledge I will greatly appreciate. I have some troubles with the following example let me explain to you : I drop a song which starts by a breakdown. The gain will not be a the same level than the other song because the other one is not really in a breakdown. The problem is that I want to make it heared a bit more so I increase the gain to reach the same level of the first one. However when the basses kick in, it is now too loud so I need to decrease the gain back and fastly. What would you recommand me to do ? Do like this or maybe increase the EQ and then decrease them when the bass kick in ? Also when you want to set the gain level to the first track how do you ? As a gain basis to work with or to set to the first track level, do you use the gain of the instant when you mix the second track in ? Or do look for the loudest part of the song and use this moment gain as a basis to set the gain vene if it is not at that moment of the track that you will use for your mix ? I hope it was not so complicated ;-) Thank you a lot guys J |
| Willard Battley 15.10.2012 | So you keep one fader at 100 % and the other one at a lower position ? If it's like this, it sounds strange to me because the songs will not be at the same level no ? I'm still fighting with all these gains and volume settings and how to manage with the gain adjustments Thank you J |
| Francis Leckliter 14.10.2012 |
Originally Posted by jmastio
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| Willard Battley 14.10.2012 | I have some troubles with the following example let me explain to you : I drop a song which starts by a breakdown. The gain will not be a the same level than the other song because the other one is not really in a breakdown. The problem is that I want to make it heared a bit more so I increase the gain to reach the same level of the first one. However when the basses kick in, it is now too loud so I need to decrease the gain back and fastly. What would you recommand me to do ? Do like this or maybe increase the EQ and then decrease them when the bass kick in ? Also when you want to set the gain level to the first track how do you ? As a gain basis to work with or to set to the first track level, do you use the gain of the instant when you mix the second track in ? Or do look for the loudest part of the song and use this moment gain as a basis to set the gain vene if it is not at that moment of the track that you will use for your mix ? I hope it was not so complicated ;-) Thank you a lot guys J |
| Willard Battley 14.10.2012 |
Originally Posted by Audeo
So why not decrease the volume level on the speakers and put the channel faders at 100 % ? However if I'm right doing how you are doing allow you to have some headroom if you want to increase the volume of a quiet track no ? Thank you for yours answers |
| Rufus Eilerts 13.10.2012 |
Originally Posted by KS2
Usually I go for 50 Hz, 60 Hz, 90 Hz, 150 Hz, 200 Hz This usually gives me a good spread and allows me to adjust the trim levels correctly. You will notice that one frequency will be much louder than the others. That is what you want to design your trim levels around. The problem is that not all songs are at the same levels and some might be recorded much louder. I always monitor the levels before I mix in and reduce or increase trim as necessary. |
| Willard Battley 12.10.2012 | Hello guys I'm digging an old thread back. I'm not DJing since a long time however I start to believe about Gain adjustments and clipping stuff also. Although I'm always using autogain function, I believe it can still be usefull to know how to work with the gain knob, because sometimes the autogain function of Traktor does not always sounds nice to me. First of all, I've not seen this mentionned in this thread but do you take into consideration headroom level ? Because I'm wondering if I'm using autogain function and I set my master output to -7.5, it it usefull to use a limiter and also some headroom in preferences ? I will have others questions about gain adjustments but I prefer to go slowly ;-) Teach me and thank you J |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 23.05.2009 |
Originally Posted by DvlsAdvct
Thats why you have to take all things into consideration although i believe EQ is after Volume because in older Traktor versions you could listen to the track Pre-Eq and thats what i have on my Vestax Mixer but thats not important. But yeah its all interdependent . If you whack all the EQ up your likely to clip regardless of volumes. Thats the nature of heavy EQ. Ive always worked by backing off the software and pushing the mixer. If you push Traktor to hard it will sound shit. |
| Willard Battley 16.10.2012 | Sorry guys for reposting these questions if you have any answers or few informations / knowledge I will greatly appreciate. I have some troubles with the following example let me explain to you : I drop a song which starts by a breakdown. The gain will not be a the same level than the other song because the other one is not really in a breakdown. The problem is that I want to make it heared a bit more so I increase the gain to reach the same level of the first one. However when the basses kick in, it is now too loud so I need to decrease the gain back and fastly. What would you recommand me to do ? Do like this or maybe increase the EQ and then decrease them when the bass kick in ? Also when you want to set the gain level to the first track how do you ? As a gain basis to work with or to set to the first track level, do you use the gain of the instant when you mix the second track in ? Or do look for the loudest part of the song and use this moment gain as a basis to set the gain vene if it is not at that moment of the track that you will use for your mix ? I hope it was not so complicated ;-) Thank you a lot guys J |
| Willard Battley 15.10.2012 | So you keep one fader at 100 % and the other one at a lower position ? If it's like this, it sounds strange to me because the songs will not be at the same level no ? I'm still fighting with all these gains and volume settings and how to manage with the gain adjustments Thank you J |
| Francis Leckliter 14.10.2012 |
Originally Posted by jmastio
|
| Willard Battley 14.10.2012 | I have some troubles with the following example let me explain to you : I drop a song which starts by a breakdown. The gain will not be a the same level than the other song because the other one is not really in a breakdown. The problem is that I want to make it heared a bit more so I increase the gain to reach the same level of the first one. However when the basses kick in, it is now too loud so I need to decrease the gain back and fastly. What would you recommand me to do ? Do like this or maybe increase the EQ and then decrease them when the bass kick in ? Also when you want to set the gain level to the first track how do you ? As a gain basis to work with or to set to the first track level, do you use the gain of the instant when you mix the second track in ? Or do look for the loudest part of the song and use this moment gain as a basis to set the gain vene if it is not at that moment of the track that you will use for your mix ? I hope it was not so complicated ;-) Thank you a lot guys J |
| Willard Battley 14.10.2012 |
Originally Posted by Audeo
So why not decrease the volume level on the speakers and put the channel faders at 100 % ? However if I'm right doing how you are doing allow you to have some headroom if you want to increase the volume of a quiet track no ? Thank you for yours answers |
| Venetta Cawyer 13.10.2012 | Ah yeah, I totally forgot about the Xone mixers. I rarely see one of those.. Yes, for some convoluted reason they treat their DJ mixer volume control as if it was a regular mixing desk. Pretty darn weird if you ask me.. |
| Rufus Eilerts 13.10.2012 | I stand corrected. Thanks for the insight on those mixers, why on earth would Xone do that with their line faders. |
| Nikole Resende 13.10.2012 | It's not that you shouldn't have your channel faders at 100%, it's that you don't have to... Many people use their channel faders almost like on/off witches, just slamming the fader up and down. There are, however, some cases where you really should not have your faders at 100%: when you're using a minimalistic rotary mixer or any other mixer that does not have gain control. In this cases you should keep your faders at about 70%/80% so you don't have any problems if a tune should be more quite than the one playing before. An there's an 'anomaly' on some mixers, e.g. the Xone mixers. With the Xones, 100% (or unity gain, to be correct) isn't at the top of the fader, but slightly below it. For the Xones that would be in the middle of the marked area next to the upper part of the fader. This means that by having the fader at 100%, you're actually adding some volume to the signal, e.g. if you set your gains so that the signal is at 0dB according to the LEDs, the signal would actually be above 0dB after the fader. |
| Rufus Eilerts 13.10.2012 |
Originally Posted by KS2
Usually I go for 50 Hz, 60 Hz, 90 Hz, 150 Hz, 200 Hz This usually gives me a good spread and allows me to adjust the trim levels correctly. You will notice that one frequency will be much louder than the others. That is what you want to design your trim levels around. The problem is that not all songs are at the same levels and some might be recorded much louder. I always monitor the levels before I mix in and reduce or increase trim as necessary. |
| Rufus Eilerts 13.10.2012 | There is no good reason to not have the up faders all the way up. 1. Monitor your channels and keep them out of the RED with the combination of Trim and EQ. 2. Monitor your master output levels and keep it out of the RED. 3. IF you believe you're not getting enough punch when you are running your mixer at the bleeding edge of clipping, then the truth of the matter is that you don't have an adequate sound system. It seems like a lot of people like to get MORE from their system by running the mixer way too hot. Bad idea and it sounds like shit period. Pony up the money and upgrade your amps and especially subs or find a venue with a better sound system. Most guys aren't usually mixing and believe to themselves, damn there isn't enough symbals or high frequency sounds I'll turn up the highs. They usually go damn I wish I had more bass to make people vomit. Turn up the mixer levels and boom there goes your speaker or amp. Most sound guys hate DJ's and usually limit the shit out of your mixer because they know you'll play in the red anyways cuz it's cool. I do the same thing if some DJ I don't know is going to play through my amps and speakers. Before a gig I turn all my levels to max including master, trim, and all eq's. Then I plug in my amps and run the system without speakers connected. I hook up a multimeter and measure max voltage with different sound frequencies and adjust the amp limiters to only allow the RMS power out to the speakers to keep them from blowing. This way if the DJ maxs out the mixer he has no way of blowing my gear up. |
| Latina Samon 12.10.2012 | Still struggling to get my head around this. I've been loading up a track, finding where it really kicks in and seeing if it hits the red (usually does slightly) then turning the gain down til it stops doing so. Haven't had any issues with sound but I doubt this is correct. I've got autogain set for when a track is loaded, limiter enabled and headroom of -9dB (don't know what this means!). |
| Venetta Cawyer 12.10.2012 | No, the built-in limiter function of Traktor is a bit wonky and will pull your sound out of proportion to the bassy side. I prefer to have the master set to -10dB and not use auto-gain. Just keep using your head and not let it clip. You can check out the output in the middle on the top. Don't let it go blinking RED. And I don't know who told you not to go 100% with your faders, but that seems quite useless and I see no reason to do something like that. Only when I play two tracks at the same time, I have both faders @ 80% because combined they sound pretty loud. And I don't know why someone would say that you'd have to put Pioneer mixers in the red do get decent sound because that's special olympics retarted. Seriously. If you have ANY knowledge about mixers and how they work, you really wouldn't say that. |
| Willard Battley 12.10.2012 | Also I have seen that it is not advised to set the channel fader all the way up. I do not understand why if you're using some headroom no ? Thank you for your answers. |
| Willard Battley 12.10.2012 | Hello guys I'm digging an old thread back. I'm not DJing since a long time however I start to believe about Gain adjustments and clipping stuff also. Although I'm always using autogain function, I believe it can still be usefull to know how to work with the gain knob, because sometimes the autogain function of Traktor does not always sounds nice to me. First of all, I've not seen this mentionned in this thread but do you take into consideration headroom level ? Because I'm wondering if I'm using autogain function and I set my master output to -7.5, it it usefull to use a limiter and also some headroom in preferences ? I will have others questions about gain adjustments but I prefer to go slowly ;-) Teach me and thank you J |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 23.05.2009 |
Originally Posted by DvlsAdvct
Thats why you have to take all things into consideration although i believe EQ is after Volume because in older Traktor versions you could listen to the track Pre-Eq and thats what i have on my Vestax Mixer but thats not important. But yeah its all interdependent . If you whack all the EQ up your likely to clip regardless of volumes. Thats the nature of heavy EQ. Ive always worked by backing off the software and pushing the mixer. If you push Traktor to hard it will sound shit. |
| Xavier Emanuels 23.05.2009 | <3 this community
, learn something new all the time I might just have to give autogain another shot, i have it turned off at the moment. |
| Roberto Viccione 23.05.2009 | Keep in mind, technically, the order everything goes is Track Gain (the level the track is recorded at) --> Gain --> EQ --> Volume --> Master. And then it's plugged into another mixer that's going Levels from Master in Traktor -->Gain --> EQ --> Volume --> Master Out Then it's going to an amp, etc. etc. etc. So, really, if Traktor is boosting the levels to 0.0 db based on its analysis, you want to make sure your EQ and Gain are spot on so that it won't clip. The clipping is, in my view, most likely to happen before you hit the volume faders, or the Master Out. That make sense? |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 22.05.2009 | Lol. Ok technically going off what you said you will not clip with the channel faders at the top unless you add tons of eq and effects . They all affect volume output. This is why you must have the faders lower. BUT you keep saying forget the Master but your not actually forgetting the Master yourself. You wont clip doing what you said 'because' the master is low. I dont understand why you want the faders at the top ? I see where your coming from but this 'chain' you mention doesnt really work in such a linear way. To prevent clipping you have to take all things into consideration together, EQ/Faders/Master/FX. |
| Doug Bieling 22.05.2009 | Forget the master i said, just believe of the master as being set really low just turned up enough to let a bit of sound through. ( i know this isnt realistic but its just to get my question understood ) The channel faders within traktor are the first part of the chain where there could be clipping occuring and if it occurs here there is no point believeing about any other part of the chain. So ... if i have auto gain set which levels the tracks to 0.00 db at its loudest point, and then the channel fader is at the top would i be creating a clipped signal through that channel only? Forget even any other channel just this one first channel / part of the chain Cheers Gav |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 22.05.2009 | Yes. If the Master is set high. You cant clip if the Master is set low. Are you mixing internally (with the VCI) If your line faders are at the top then something is wrong. Your channel faders should be much lower. so you have room to mix. Every MP3 has a different volume level. Some tracks are quieter than others. Traktor has a db level that it considers to be the right level for all tracks, 0.0db. If a track is quieter than the 0.0 level (lets say 1.4db lower) Auto gain will raise the volume of a quiet track by 1.4 db to make it 0.0db so it will show a reading in the 'Analysed' Field of +1.4db (check the Analysed field in the browser to see how much autogain has altered the volume.) This is all independent of the channel faders. Its internal. Bring your channel faders down and push the Master a bit so you have got some room to mix with the channel faders. |
| Doug Bieling 22.05.2009 | So are we saying that with auto gain on and the line fader all the way to the top you could be clipping? Forget the master for now lets just concentrate on the one single line fader. |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 22.05.2009 | Exactly. Thats because your master or channel faders are already to high. I use autogain but just to level the volumes of tracks i dont rely on it. You still need to ride the master or channel faders. I just see it as a helpful tool but i still rely on my old DJ judgement. If you can keep your Master volume down to a good level on Traktor you will not clip with autogain on . |
| Xavier Emanuels 22.05.2009 | Hmm that makes sense, so it autogain is causeing your track to clip that would be because your other track is already probably clipping. |
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