Mixing Harmonically ... I never really see it discussed here.
Mixing Harmonically ... I never really see it discussed here. Posted on: 03.01.2013 by Sheilah Kurzhal That's odd because ... Personally, I'd rather master mixing / transitions and advanced harmonic mixing concepts ... Than ANY OTHER combination of skills a DJ could have. It is THAT critical to me. Harmony .. the blending and manipulation of is where the magic and the chillbumps lay. It's where epic comes from. And there's a lot more to it than moving around the wheel an hour at a time. | |
| Janyce Henningson 05.01.2013 | Don't forget Mixed In Key & Rapid Evoulution are only 40% accurate - which in my book equates to 60% waste of time |
| Rolande Posso 05.01.2013 | I have found this thread interesting tbh I would say you guys are over believeing things this is a prime example of how technology has begun to overwhelm the dj scene. You do not need any charts harmony comes naturally its the basics of mixing music the journey comes from tune selection no chart will do it for you. No hate just bemused at how people analize things that are so simple ? |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 05.01.2013 | I just noticed the title, on Soundcloud!! Songs in the key of fuck yeah!!! That's awesome! If you get sec sometime .. Look me up. Based on your taste and what I just read above ... I'd pay you for a review!! I would definitely value your breakdown of one or 2 of my originals! Regardless, much respect! I can tell you work hard! Atleast on the post up there and the mix for sure! #RESPECT |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 05.01.2013 | Stereo:Type! Thanks a lot! You've touched on some GREAT points! I really respect your opinion on the matter. [ LOVING THE WEST COAST VIBE OF YOUR MIX EARLY ON .. THIS IS GREAT! ] I admitted somewhere in the thread earlier, that I should definitely study back up on my musical theory. And I recognize that, that is what it comes down to .. willingness to learn as much as your brain will allow you on the topic. There is no one that can make me believe that a DJ having a truly advanced understanding of MUSIC AND CHORD Theory (as you stated) will not have at the very least a musical intelligence ADVANTAGE over a DJ that does not. That doesn't mean Music Theory DJ is GOD ... But he's armed with what I know is a very powerful weapon. To be added w/ your other skills to make you one bad ass .... MASTER OF ENERGY. Musical and Chord Theory actually explains (kind of) WHY the music FEELS the way it feels. Why would any DJ trying to be pro ... overlook this. Now I am aware that people naturally will be more or less skilled than one another ... But ... maybe it's my region ... I don't find people coming anywhere close to the energy that I feel in your mix, Stereo:type ... HONESTLY ... I HAVE NOT HAD ANY INCLINATION TO TURN THIS OFF. If it were later in the day it would be LOUDER! This is great ... and exactly where I'm heading, bro! No offense ... but SURELY this isn't live?? THIS IS SICK! IT'S a journey ... Your mix is such a great example of how it's done, IN MY OPINION. Insta - follow on your Cloud! Thank you for sharing your input and this F*CKING AMAZING MIX! ;alksdjf a;lkfj!!!! WOW! DAMN! THAT QUICK SWITCH UP OVER TO THE PRODIGY REMIX GAVE ME THE CHILLS! WHAT A JOURNEY! If you don't mind me asking? What's your setup? |
| Malissa Mountcastle 05.01.2013 | I believe some good points have been raised here. Mixing in key can be more or less important dependent on the kind of music you play. For instance, if you play really minimal music that is mostly rhythmical with very little tone, there is far less propensity for clashing between tracks, however, If the kind of music you play has any tonal elements or progression to it (which i personally consider to be nearly everything, even drum sounds play back with prevalent frequencies which ultimately equal tone), then mixing in key is absolutely essential. I always equate this to the idea of going to see a band perform. If the guitarist played all the songs in one key, and the singer sang them a semitone out, and the bassist played them another three semitones up from that, it would sound like a hideous mess and most likely a lot of people would believe 'This sounds like shit, i'm not sticking around to listen to it.' Even if you have little to no intrinsic understanding of harmonic relation, most people can just instinctively feel when something sounds clashing. With that in mind it has always puzzled me that generally DJ's don't seem to be held to a similar kind of standard. I understand that a DJ should be lauded for lots of reasons, like their track selection and ability to read the crowd and so forth, but it still seems like quite a rarity that people are really given credit for finding songs that work so well together that it sounds like they could have been made as one thing. Someone also mentioned that it's less common for people to believe about conflicting drum grooves. This is so on point. Two clashing grooves can completely strip the energy out of what's going on, even if the two tracks sound great harmonically... There have been plenty of discussions regarding key detection software, but my two pence on it is this. If you can learn to (or naturally) do this by ear, it is the single most effective way of doing it, and a worthwhile endeavor if you're serious about the concept. No key detection software is infallible, because it is not actually 'listening' to the music, it's just analyzing the prevalent frequencies in a waveform, and that in no way means that those frequencies have to equate to the root note of the track (ie: the key). They will most likely form part of the major or minor chord of that key, for instance, a track in C minor/major could have a lot of these notes in it: C - D Flat - E - G, and if the software picks up on any of those occurring frequently, it might label the track as that note being the root key of the track. So, while it might have a harmonic relation to the actual root key, you're going to start mixing between tracks with essentially inaccurate information. Mixed in Key gets so much love, but i believe that it's not all it's cracked up to be. It will label things as a fifth out from its actual key (as per what i mentioned above) too much to really be considered accurate. If it labels 5A as being 6A then thats fine when you mix 5 to 5 or 5 to 6, but if you try to mix 6 to 7 (which would be permissible under the theoretical concept) and the reality is that you're actually mixing 5 to 7 then the likelihood is that the mix won't sound very good... MIK are so precious about nobody stealing their 'special' algorithm that they make you connect to the internet to use their product, which i believe is quite a big ask on the part of the consumer. It would be more deserved if their software wasn't so frequently inaccurate. Also, modulating key by 5ths is not the only way to move around keys. Mixes with other intervals such as 3rds and 7ths can also sound pleasing (although they'll almost never follow progressions together), and can help stop you from being slaved to playing a track just because the key is right, and not necessarily picking the right tunes for the moment. Invariably though, tracks with little to no tonal content in their intro/outro are the best way of modulating from one key to another... The one good thing i will say about MIK is that the system of replacing keys with number values is actually quite handy. Especially if you're looking down a list of a lot of tracks. Picking out a number at speed is far quicker than picking out a letter and then potentially a flat or a sharp symbol, especially as the number sticks out starkly from the letters of the track name/artist. If you do need to pick a key detection software, from the results i've seen i've found rekordbox to be more accurate than MIK. I've not tried keyfinder, so can't make any comment as to it's accuracy. Lastly (and as a shameless plug) If you're interested in the concept of harmonic mixing or want examples of it, it's worth checking this out. It's just under 3 hours and 166 tracks worth of harmonic eargasming goodness. http://soundcloud.com/stereotypemashup/songs-in-the-key-of-fuck-yeah Thanks for reading my diatribe/essay/novella... |
| Janyce Henningson 05.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by jshawpro
Originally Posted by keeb
http://community .djranking s.com/showthread.php?t=3545 |
| Kristofer Krauel 05.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by keeb
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| Ok Moroski 05.01.2013 | I'll never understand why so many people on this community feel the need to post inane drivel in threads they don't like for whatever reason as some kind of knee-jerk reaction... |
| Kristofer Krauel 04.01.2013 | And check out the blog on here. I just did a search for "harmonic mixing" and it threw up these blog posts. Some are very good reads! http://www.djranking s.com/?s=harmonic+mixing |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 04.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Joel Santos
http://www.mixedinkey.com/Book/ Get ready to be blown away ... but harbor your excitement on this because -- a lot people will hop on your thread ... you'll get a notification ... feeling like YES ... someone has good information to share with me on this topic ... BUT ... you open it ... and it reads as follows ... "THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED". And you end up with your bubble bursted and you're like ... I just wanted to talk ... ?? I'd be glad to chat with you about it, though! HAVE FUN, BRO! |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 04.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by AllDay
But I remember being in middle school ... I got in trouble a lot so they gave me a Tuba and put me in the school band for like a hobby and shit. I LOVED IT. I deservingly, got kicked out for poor behavior. But I can still recall the feeling I got the first time I heard all the different sections harmonize simultaneously. It was truly a life changing moment. LITERALLY .. fully surrounded and enveloped by such POWERFUL, beautiful frequencies ... those wavelengths reached through my shirt ... and grabbed my soul. I've been chasing it ever since! It's still magic to me. Kind of gay .. but true story! |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 04.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Hoodless
I don't want to be predictable. I had a lot regulars last year that don't wanna hear the same gimmicks every week. I learned to play the crowd. I also keep key neutral drum beats that I produce in Ableton on deck ready .. to move myself into a favorable position when I'm "trapped". Scary some times .. But I find it more rewarding ... and when I did mess up ... I'd own it ... and learn from it. Thanks for the feedback! |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 04.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Emery
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts / experience. I'm pulling up Key Finder right after I type this. Can't wait to try it out! I'll share my thoughts / results if the mods will allow me to. I can give it a very sound comparison to Rapid Evolution 3 ... which I've been using for a while now. I can't speak about MIK, either. I was going to just do it manually rather than pay for something that was around 50% accurate. 100% accuracy if I do it myself. Glad these analyzers are out there, though. MUCH LOVE, Emery! |
| Tera Baragan 04.01.2013 | Everyone is so gun hoe about MIK and keying your tracks. But nobody talks about drum patterns or music theory. The pattern of a perticular song plays almost as much of a part if not more to mixing. |
| Caridad Fan 04.01.2013 | Sorry in advance jshawpro since you're looking for advanced opinions. I must say... never expected these kind of topics around this community . This all seems a new thing to me. I've had music theory classes as a child and now I kind of play guitar and now how things work around rock and such but to be fair I never thought about danceable music as... well... notes and scales! Of course it's obvious that all works around that but never took the time to believe about it. It's pretty interesting to believe on a gig harmonically. Can anyone provide me some blog articles or something? Or maybe keywords to search for? By the way... how do you practice your ear? I kind of know how major, minor, pentatonic... scales work and sound on a guitar but on danceable music? Kind of a lame and noob question I know. Just trying to find out the best methods. |
| Dione Haimes 04.01.2013 | Practice, use your ears when you practice, ive about 150 tracks ill take with me every set, (CD DJ) i know what ones mix well into which, by practicing and using your ears, yes you can punt them through a program, but then the program is picking tracks for you, not your brain |
| Geri Jarra 04.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by jshawpro
http://www.ibrahimshaath.co.uk/keyfinder/ Damn that took me forever to find! I swear every time I look for Keyfinders website it takes 10 different searches. But yes they have a version for mac, its what I use. The only thing - If you want to use the Camelot keys you have to put them in manually. I recommend checking the settings before you start using it anyway
Originally Posted by Jester
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| Sheilah Kurzhal 04.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by LiamC
I DEFINITELY know the basics. Within the first WEEK of learning Traktor (no prior experience spinning) .. I recognized a personal necessity to know the key of everything in my library ... at that point ... I had never EVEN heard of a key code ... mixed in key ... none of that. And it wasn't because my stuff sounded bad ... my ears defend that. It was because I wanted MORE control over my library. When I feel like the crowd is ready for something ... I want to deliver ... in the EXACT way that I hear it in my head. When I concluded the first post of this thread with: "There's a lot more to it than moving around the wheel 1 hour at time" ... I wasn't giving out advice ... It was my hope that people would read what I wrote before that ... And recognize that ... Ok he knows the basics ... and wants to talk about some of the more meticulous / less obvious, more advanced points and ideas concerning harmonics AND mixing. But nope. "IT'S BEEN DISCUSSED BEFORE." and I'm like ... |
| Latoria Kavulich 04.01.2013 | Keyfinder is awesome. I used MiK for some years before switching. Way faster and just as, if not more accurate results. |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 04.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Emery
Sorry about my bitterness there, Emery ... I'm going to look up KeyFinder if it's available for Mac. I use Rapid Evolution 3 Beta. And it's fairly accurate. If nothing else ... It will save me from manually typing in the codes myself (when I import a lot songs) ... even wrong ones ... I'll then start prepping my new additions ... and a part of that process is verifying key manually on the songs I feel unsure about. Then I feel nice and warm inside ... I'd rather have key code information than my songs locked to a grid ... I can manually beatmatch ... But I don't have time while out there live to keep trial and error cue'ing until I find something that provides the shift of energy or emotion that I'm searching for. I'd rather go right to a set of options ... that are all likely to provide the texture that I want. Thanks for sharing your insight! |
| Ilana Enderson 04.01.2013 | I really do recommend manually keying tracks.. you will probably learn a lot. 99% of everything uses either Major mode, or aeolian mode (natural minor scale - like the major scale but flat 3, flat 6, and flat 7) - for example C major is all the white keys on the piano starting on C, and A minor is all the white keys on the piano starting on A. Must be why so many tracks are in A minor or 8A! Key detection software does kind of suck. I also use the key knob to go up or down one semitone (more options for harmonic mixing) - using "A minor, D minor" etc.. is way easier than using those silly key codes as well. |
| Geri Jarra 04.01.2013 | I use a freeware program called "KeyFinder" and I've been happy with it. The info, imo, is nice to have , but whether or not I use it when I mix depends on the gig/type of music and where Im mixing one track into another. If it is over the drum beat, obviously tone doesn't matter. I also believe that using your ear should ALWAYS be the final judge. Personally I avoid MIK because I despise their marketing ploy of "With MIK anyone can DJ like Tiesto!" We can all agree that there is much more too the art than that, but It is nice information to have and use appropriately |
| Benjamin Sieh 04.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by keeb
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| Sheilah Kurzhal 04.01.2013 | Umm. Thanks.
Originally Posted by Jester
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| Latoria Kavulich 04.01.2013 | There are a lot of discussions on this topic in the community , and several blog articles relating to it. |
| Ok Moroski 04.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by SirReal
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| Antonetta Wikel 04.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by keeb
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| Ilana Enderson 04.01.2013 | In my experience, there are sort of three different categories that a tune may fall into given how much its harmony makes it feel like it has a tonal centre (the key it is in - major or minor). First is atonal - such as atmospheric techno with no real melody and maybe only one repeated bass note. Something with very atonal sounding melodies also falls into this category (jump up drum n bass, brostep, some bass music, etc..). The second category is something that has very little melody - maybe one or two different notes, probably the same bass note repeate.d throughout. Dutch house comes to mind.. or more melodic techno. The third category is completely tonal - there is a very clear harmonic progression (believe very melodic things such as liquid dnb, disco, trance). In my experience, the importance of using the circle of fifths (i key all my tracks entirely by ear) is only based on how tonally centred the new track's key is versus the old track's key. You can mix atonal music with anything (that is, any key and any amount of melody) , and it either wont matter or will sort of take on the tonal centre in a way of a more melodic track. A track that has a bit more melody and tonal centre will always sound good with atonal things, but has to be somewhat compatible with a very melodic track. It doesn't necessarily have to be within a fifth, but if the keys are a semitone apart will most likely sound awful. If you are mixing two tracks with a great deal of melody, mix them according to the circle of fifths. It will almost always sound bad if you dont. Keep in mind that different parts of the tracks have different amounts of melody, like what he said above about percussion loops (ATONAL!). An outro might only have one repeated note - so you can likely move to a more distant key without any sort of awful clash. I started out using keys religiously from a key detection program. It got it wrong too often for me, so i did it on my own. It takes me about 2 seconds to find a key if it's obvious now. I highly recommend this. The point of this is don't always follow key codes, but sometimes you need to in order to confidently blend things. |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 03.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by SpeshulEd
Maybe I should've titled the post "how do YOU mix harmonically [advanced only]" ... Because my intent was for comments just like I quoted from you to emerge. You beat me to the punch. Now the question is (more for myself) ... do you know why the tracks won't blend properly when they should. I strive to understand everything within my capacity about the micro details of harmonic mixing ... so like I said ... one day, I can fully harness the amazing (to me) potential of harmonic mixing / manipulation. I find tracks and key codes that should not work ... then after verifying the key manually w/ a synth ... and then repeating the effect sometimes with other songs of the same variables ... I'm left boggled ... Like ... why does that work so perfectly! And my nature will not allow me to be unsatisfied. I can anticipate the next response ... "Sounds like you need to get a chord book and learn some theory" ... and that is true ... and I will. |
| Joselyn Supina 03.01.2013 | Ha, sorry, I didn't mean to be rude, just that you said it's never talked about and it is...but yeah, it usually just happens randomly. Personally, I believe we all try to mix harmonically. I used the chart religiously when I started but now I don't even pay attention. I believe as a beginner it helps you learn what goes together but the more you play and become familiar with your style/tunes you play the less you have to rely on the chart. I can usually tell if a song sounds like hell with the song I'm playing, so I skip it and find another song. I've also found songs that should go together based on key but don't, sometimes you just have to rely on your ear and what sounds right to you. |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 03.01.2013 | Thanks for the info, guys. I just don't understand why people choose to waste their time responding (negatively) to a topic they have no interest in. I don't like digging up old posts when I'm looking for a conversation. When seeking specific information ... I'll surely find it. I'd prefer non interested parties overlook the post ... especially when my new (thought provoking) post is next to a post titled "what do you wear when you dj?" ... seriously? CLOTHES! Now back to the relevant stuff!! |
| Jolynn Schroyer 03.01.2013 | There are threads about harmonic mixing, programs such as mixed in key and others have been discussed. Try the search community you'll be surprised on the huge discussion probably like 12 pages of peoples opinions. I have the program but find it inaccurate at times so I train my ears to do it naturally. What sounds good to me is what gives me my own style. |
| Cole Maroto 03.01.2013 | there's been a lot of discussion on this recently...it's just that it usually ends up being a tangent within another thread. this is complete keithace bait right here. as for me, i agree with everything you said. mixing harmonically is VERY important and critical. whether or not you use software to assist with that is personal preference. i run everything through mik and have found it to be very helpful when djing. |
| Joselyn Supina 03.01.2013 | Search the community
for talk about mixed in key, or MIK, or Rapid Evolution 3, or any of the other key finding programs. Every time someone asks a question about keying their music collection, this topic is discussed. Usually the outcome of all of those conversations is...mixing with the camelot wheel is great for beginners, but after awhile, you just know what sounds good together and don't really need a chart to accomplish a good mix. |
| Ok Moroski 03.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by jshawpro
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| Sheilah Kurzhal 03.01.2013 | Nice roll of the eyes ... but I hear too many tonal train wrecks when I go out to at least have the right to bring this up once in a while. I discovered the necessity to UNDERSTAND harmonic mixing on my own within my first couple of months of gigging ... And thank God I decided to see if there were any analyzers that would "help" b4 I started manually. And there were. I find myself correcting the decision of the software often ... But it gets em right plenty of times, too. Just something to talk about, bro ... thanks for that useless reply!
Originally Posted by SirReal
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| Sheilah Kurzhal 03.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by keeb
The epic and magic I'm speaking of are those moments when you activate the PERFECT blend ... perfect in that you introduced it at the most optimal moment ... and that it's a perfect harmonic match ... it gives me the chills believeing about it ... It will sound like one new song ... it's even hard for me to tell what frequencies belong to which because it's ... PERFECT. My strive is to further and ultimately fully harness the potential for these moments. Harmony and melody has long been my favorite aspect of music production. As opposed to favoring rhythm section / drum work ... or being a bass head. |
| Antonetta Wikel 03.01.2013 | I mix atonally, myself. |
| Ok Moroski 03.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by jshawpro
The circle of fifths is a guide. Once you've tuned your ears to what a harmonic mix sounds like, you can branch out. I'll do about every third mix or so "out of harmony" based on the wheel while still making sure the tracks sound good together as I'm cueing the next track; whether that means finding a part of the song where the melody still works, or finding a part that's just percussion. The groove is more important than harmonic "correctness" in my experience, though not much will beat mix that's sound in both areas. Another thing is to make sure you have options in each key for whatever genre you're spinning. If you only have one track that's 11A/11B and you "need" to mix through 11, it gets a lot harder after you've already used that track. You'll also find yourself gravitating toward worse tracks if you focus too much on the harmony with a small selection and forget about the rest of your mixing fundamentals. Oh, and epic comes from dedication, years of practice, good taste, and passion. Harmonic mixing is a solid component too, but don't let it trap you into formulaic mixes. |
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