Mixing Harmonically ... I never really see it discussed here.
Mixing Harmonically ... I never really see it discussed here. Posted on: 03.01.2013 by Sheilah Kurzhal That's odd because ... Personally, I'd rather master mixing / transitions and advanced harmonic mixing concepts ... Than ANY OTHER combination of skills a DJ could have. It is THAT critical to me. Harmony .. the blending and manipulation of is where the magic and the chillbumps lay. It's where epic comes from. And there's a lot more to it than moving around the wheel an hour at a time. | |
| Tera Baragan 10.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by SpeshulEd
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| Joselyn Supina 09.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by AllDay
My mac loads within a few seconds...first a splash screen and then the program. |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 09.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by AllDay
I haven't encountered that yet. And really out 100 + songs ... and messing around for about an hour. I only came across a couple of all the way wrong keys. I haven't gone through them all. So that number will surely go up. But thank user: "EMERY" ... He gave some really cool points and suggested Keyfinder ... NAILED IT. MIK may be a more accurate / deeper tool (honestly I don't know) .. But Keyfinder will definitely get you going. |
| Tera Baragan 09.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by jshawpro
EDIT* I know nothing about keys so maybe thats normal? |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 08.01.2013 | KeyFinder ... I extensively used RE3 ... got great use from it ... and dealt with it's bugginess as one guy said earlier .. personally because it was free. And I can check them manually. Someone suggested Keyfinder on this thread. And I'm very glad they did. On my machine (macbook pro) it's by far better than RE3. My library is far from complete (I'm redesigning my Traktor setup) but it just knocked out about 150 new tracks. NO PROBLEM. I haven't checked for accuracy. I'll take whatever it gets right. Because after I pull up my tracks that I know are 100%. I can easily compare against those. And for some of the real tricky ones. Ableton and any soft synth. The process was simple! But be sure and check the preferences before you mess with anything, though. Your code may not immediately reflect in Traktor (anyways). But when you load into a deck, it will update the tag. Auto Analyze? I recommend it if you don't have a current solution.
Originally Posted by AllDay
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| Cole Maroto 08.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by ST4R
i don't hate you, or really anyone else for that matter. i usually refrain from these types of arguments, but after a grueling 12 hour day at work it was rough to see your attitude towards me and all other mik users in the top post. so now we can put it past us and get on with agreeing that everyone should be happy doing their own thing. well, off to another day of work. at least i shouldn't be there as long toevening ...i hope. have a good one. |
| Ok Moroski 08.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by ST4R
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| Cole Maroto 08.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by ST4R
i never said i don't want to learn new skills, in fact some of the time i save by using mik i learn things for work, practice djing, work on producing, reading, watching movies, listening to music, spending time with my family, going out with my girlfriend, and various other things that are currently more important to me than manually keying music. it's not making sense to you because you're not fully reading what i'm saying and just lumping me into some category of lazy, bad djs. i'm just not seeing why people who use this software bother others so badly, and why people are so quick to cast wide aspersions on it's fans. how is it okay for "pro" touring djs to use mik, but not for everyday hobbyists? that doesn't make any sense. i'm just as busy as most of these touring pros...i have a full time job, a house to maintain, other interests, and far less time to work with music than they do. really? you are going to give me the "i bet you're working on sick new tracks" and allude to how "pro" i am? c'mon man. i know you aren't asking seriously but i am starting to work on producing tracks and feel that i have some good ideas, but i'm still learning and far from a pro but that's ok. it's a time consuming process that i am going through, but one i feel is ultimately worth it. also, you don't need to fully understand exactly how all keys work to write good harmonic songs (the same way that i already said i mixed harmonically before even keying my songs). you just have to play around, feeling it out a bit more. i play a bit of guitar and know some scales (the good old pentatonic scale, and several others i can't remember the names of). i also know various sets of chords that work together which i've learned through practice, trial & error, and experimenting. the same for keyboards, and i play some drums as well. i do this because it's fun to me and i use mik because it helps me facilitate more time toward those activities. btw, i tend to have a preference to songs in the key of a minor, which you would know if you took the time to fully read what i said and i will probably end up producing songs in that key on a subconscious level. or i could look up scales and chords in that key and go from there. you seem pretty condescending for someone who has no work to show, and even if you do your attitude is pretty uncouth. i have plenty of mixes up (in case you want to judge me with some kind of actual substance). you can take a listen and pick out all the mistakes if you like. chances are i already know about them, but i'm not perfect so some minor mishaps sometimes get included. i do my best and put out the highest quality i can at my level and i have fun while i'm doing it, and that's the truly important part. will taking the time to study music theory make me a better musician? sure, it probably will, at least it would probably help my consistency in a live jam styled setting, but in my mind i have other more important things to learn and i don't feel like doing it at the moment. maybe i will someday, maybe i won't, but it's not for you to worry about. it has no effect on your life in the slightest. you weren't trying to judge me? you were pretty much judging everyone with "MIK is for the musically impaired or lazy." is using your s4 with sync for the musically impaired and lazy? don't you see how ironic this is when you are doing the same thing by using traktor? if you disagree with using mik that's fine, tell us why, but you don't need to pull out some blanket stereotype that fits over one tiny bit of context. |
| Ryan Schlich 08.01.2013 | Im trying to point out that youre almost against spending time learning to train your ears! It did make you seem lazy -_- You call it time wasted, where you can be wasting your time doing something else, but I believe its time well spent. It makes it seem like youre not willing to learn new skills and practices because you believe its a waste of time? IDK. not making sense to me. Not that I dont see uses for software that tells you something you should learn to do yourself FIRST. I believe its useful for busy fulltime touring DJs. You can run it through the program and compare what you hear to what it says to double check. So are you too pro? You must be working on some sick new tracks at the moment. What keys do you favor producing in? I really wasnt trying to judge YOU, just what you said and how you said them. I guess I can be doing something else instead of having this discussions.
Originally Posted by Stereo:Type
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| Tera Baragan 10.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by SpeshulEd
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| Joselyn Supina 09.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by AllDay
My mac loads within a few seconds...first a splash screen and then the program. |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 09.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by AllDay
I haven't encountered that yet. And really out 100 + songs ... and messing around for about an hour. I only came across a couple of all the way wrong keys. I haven't gone through them all. So that number will surely go up. But thank user: "EMERY" ... He gave some really cool points and suggested Keyfinder ... NAILED IT. MIK may be a more accurate / deeper tool (honestly I don't know) .. But Keyfinder will definitely get you going. |
| Tera Baragan 09.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by jshawpro
EDIT* I know nothing about keys so maybe thats normal? |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 08.01.2013 | KeyFinder ... I extensively used RE3 ... got great use from it ... and dealt with it's bugginess as one guy said earlier .. personally because it was free. And I can check them manually. Someone suggested Keyfinder on this thread. And I'm very glad they did. On my machine (macbook pro) it's by far better than RE3. My library is far from complete (I'm redesigning my Traktor setup) but it just knocked out about 150 new tracks. NO PROBLEM. I haven't checked for accuracy. I'll take whatever it gets right. Because after I pull up my tracks that I know are 100%. I can easily compare against those. And for some of the real tricky ones. Ableton and any soft synth. The process was simple! But be sure and check the preferences before you mess with anything, though. Your code may not immediately reflect in Traktor (anyways). But when you load into a deck, it will update the tag. Auto Analyze? I recommend it if you don't have a current solution.
Originally Posted by AllDay
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| Tera Baragan 08.01.2013 | Lol at the chick fight that just happened. Anyways Is MIK worth it? Because I downloaded rapid evolution and it stays in the loading screen, never actually opens. |
| Cole Maroto 08.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by ST4R
i don't hate you, or really anyone else for that matter. i usually refrain from these types of arguments, but after a grueling 12 hour day at work it was rough to see your attitude towards me and all other mik users in the top post. so now we can put it past us and get on with agreeing that everyone should be happy doing their own thing. well, off to another day of work. at least i shouldn't be there as long toevening ...i hope. have a good one. |
| Ok Moroski 08.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by ST4R
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| Ryan Schlich 08.01.2013 | Yeah Im sorry if I was rude. I was. MIK works for you. And you make use of it. And I was quick to judge. Were both right, but Im just saying you went off on people who didnt agree with you at first and called what a lot of people spend time practicing on a "waste of time". You were the one who seemed brash and ambiguous. I was trying to show some perspective. And no Im not a pro DJ. Im just a guy doing and saying things, and wasting time on community s. Peace. Dont hate me. |
| Cole Maroto 08.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by ST4R
i never said i don't want to learn new skills, in fact some of the time i save by using mik i learn things for work, practice djing, work on producing, reading, watching movies, listening to music, spending time with my family, going out with my girlfriend, and various other things that are currently more important to me than manually keying music. it's not making sense to you because you're not fully reading what i'm saying and just lumping me into some category of lazy, bad djs. i'm just not seeing why people who use this software bother others so badly, and why people are so quick to cast wide aspersions on it's fans. how is it okay for "pro" touring djs to use mik, but not for everyday hobbyists? that doesn't make any sense. i'm just as busy as most of these touring pros...i have a full time job, a house to maintain, other interests, and far less time to work with music than they do. really? you are going to give me the "i bet you're working on sick new tracks" and allude to how "pro" i am? c'mon man. i know you aren't asking seriously but i am starting to work on producing tracks and feel that i have some good ideas, but i'm still learning and far from a pro but that's ok. it's a time consuming process that i am going through, but one i feel is ultimately worth it. also, you don't need to fully understand exactly how all keys work to write good harmonic songs (the same way that i already said i mixed harmonically before even keying my songs). you just have to play around, feeling it out a bit more. i play a bit of guitar and know some scales (the good old pentatonic scale, and several others i can't remember the names of). i also know various sets of chords that work together which i've learned through practice, trial & error, and experimenting. the same for keyboards, and i play some drums as well. i do this because it's fun to me and i use mik because it helps me facilitate more time toward those activities. btw, i tend to have a preference to songs in the key of a minor, which you would know if you took the time to fully read what i said and i will probably end up producing songs in that key on a subconscious level. or i could look up scales and chords in that key and go from there. you seem pretty condescending for someone who has no work to show, and even if you do your attitude is pretty uncouth. i have plenty of mixes up (in case you want to judge me with some kind of actual substance). you can take a listen and pick out all the mistakes if you like. chances are i already know about them, but i'm not perfect so some minor mishaps sometimes get included. i do my best and put out the highest quality i can at my level and i have fun while i'm doing it, and that's the truly important part. will taking the time to study music theory make me a better musician? sure, it probably will, at least it would probably help my consistency in a live jam styled setting, but in my mind i have other more important things to learn and i don't feel like doing it at the moment. maybe i will someday, maybe i won't, but it's not for you to worry about. it has no effect on your life in the slightest. you weren't trying to judge me? you were pretty much judging everyone with "MIK is for the musically impaired or lazy." is using your s4 with sync for the musically impaired and lazy? don't you see how ironic this is when you are doing the same thing by using traktor? if you disagree with using mik that's fine, tell us why, but you don't need to pull out some blanket stereotype that fits over one tiny bit of context. |
| Ryan Schlich 08.01.2013 | Im trying to point out that youre almost against spending time learning to train your ears! It did make you seem lazy -_- You call it time wasted, where you can be wasting your time doing something else, but I believe its time well spent. It makes it seem like youre not willing to learn new skills and practices because you believe its a waste of time? IDK. not making sense to me. Not that I dont see uses for software that tells you something you should learn to do yourself FIRST. I believe its useful for busy fulltime touring DJs. You can run it through the program and compare what you hear to what it says to double check. So are you too pro? You must be working on some sick new tracks at the moment. What keys do you favor producing in? I really wasnt trying to judge YOU, just what you said and how you said them. I guess I can be doing something else instead of having this discussions.
Originally Posted by Stereo:Type
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| Cole Maroto 08.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by ST4R
mik works at a 80-95% accuracy for what i do (shown by 2 dubspot tests and my anecdotal experience). with 100% accuracy on songs in a minor (which is a good deal of my tracks btw). secondly, my understanding of manually keying tunes by ear has nothing to do with my selection of harmonically compatible mixes. i know what sounds good when i play, but it's beneficial and more efficient for me to have mik when narrowing selections down and choosing. if i wasn't using it, i wouldn't bother keying my tracks at all. i spent years spinning songs of which i had no idea of the key (on vinyl and cds) and very rarely had a dissonant mix arise. and yes, i could spot the harmonically incompatible ones while they were happening, but mistakes happen when you're human. the point is: i have things that are much higher priority than me learning theory and keying my tracks manually for hundreds of hours, and mik works perfectly fine in the manner that i use it. i don't let it pick every song for me. it's a tool to be used as i like with my ears being the final judge. also, what exactly is wrong with standing up for a product you find value in? people obviously like using it and they see the benefits of it so why do you care? i'm not calling you an idiot who can't mix harmonically because you don't use mik. use it if you want, or don't...it's not up to me what you do when you're djing. |
| Tera Baragan 08.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by jshawpro
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| Sheilah Kurzhal 08.01.2013 | Get em La Roux: [euro La Roux voice] Let's go to waaaaar to make peace! [/euro La Roux voice] Last evening , I was working on a song that I'm producing for someone and I played one of the baddest basslines [NI Reaktor - Razor on keys] that I have played in a while ... thanks to this thread .. right here. I didn't try one tip or technique in particular ... but I did have a desire to explore on the keys more than I have been. - success baby - |
| Ok Moroski 08.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by ST4R
I doubt I'll be able to convince you that it's better to spend your time mixing, producing, etc. than keying your tracks; honestly it comes down to how much value you place in the results of each endeavor. So, I'll put it to you this way; even when you hand-key everything, having your tracks keyed by something like MIK saves you time. If you're paranoid about accuracy, why not have two sources listen to your tracks for key rather than just one? I don't trust sync to beatmatch for me any more than I trust MIK to tell me my tracks are harmonically compatible. I use the MIK-based keycodes as suggestions - "these tracks will more likely than not mix well into the one you're mixing." I then cue the mix in my headphones and see whether MIK was accurate or not. If I keycode everything manually, I'll save myself about 10 seconds worth of work when I choose a track that doesn't work harmonically with my current track and have to select another; if that happens once for every 5 tracks I load up, why should I care? I still have ears and a brain to tell me whether the songs actually work harmonically; MIK just speeds up my searches. After using MIK for several months now, I feel like it was worth the purchase - even with RE3 and hand-keying before that. If you'd rather spend what free time you have keying tracks than mixing tunes, be my guest. I just can't say I'd recommend it. |
| Ryan Schlich 07.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by squidot
Might as well have that Pioneer software DJ for you. Dont be lazy. Training your ears will only benefit you and your work. Why zealously stand up for some flawed software like MIK? MIK is for the musically impaired or lazy. Some mixes take weeks/months to master and it shows. And often times it shows when an amateur DJ just throws a bunch of tunes he likes into a mix. I was tempted to buy it, but I knew Id be much better off learning to key by ear. My guitar god friend can key things instinctively and I would like to be that good. He even helps me key some tunes. Youre kind of making yourself look bad when you stand up for this "product" No offense though, dont know you or your abilities. Just judging by the way you post. |
| Joselyn Supina 07.01.2013 | RE3 is a resource hog, but I have it setup to import all new tracks from itunes...everything is automated. Right now I download a track, import to itunes, upload to icloud, open RE3, wait for it to analyze bpm and key, close RE3, select new tracks, convert id3 tags to 2.4 (this updates the tag with proper bpm and key information), listen to track repeatedly, update to traktor if its worhty. Note, if you run RE3 before uploading to icloud, the tags get hosed and you have to add them manually. Do I use the keys, not so much, but it's just a couple of seconds longer to write those in addition to the BPM. Personally, I like that information in itunes so if I'm ever playing and want to play a random song not in traktor, I have a good rough estimate of what I'm adding. Personally, I haven't had many issues with RE3 on my mac, even with large imports...my only complaint is if you're writing tags on 500 or so tracks at once, your batter drains fast as hell. |
| Caridad Fan 06.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Nicky H
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| Janyce Henningson 06.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by squidot
You obviously download a lot of music if it takes hours upon hours to go through them, but for people who buy 10-30 tracks at a time (like most people I know) I just believe it would be easier to key yourself when gridding/setting cue's etc. |
| Caridad Fan 06.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Nicky H
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| Cole Maroto 06.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Nicky H
so, by the dubspot tests (which is more relevant to the style of music i play), over 80% are completely correct, while over 90% are showing compatible keys. i wouldn't call that dodgy at best. that's pretty accurate and for the ones it misses my ears will tell me so. i'm not going to study music theory and sit in front of a keyboard for hours upon hours to key songs. i believe i'll stick with throwing them in software and having them be done in a couple of minutes at an arguably high accuracy according to some results. there are also free key finders as well, so money isn't really the point. |
| Janyce Henningson 06.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by squidot
My point is why pay for something that gives at best dodgy results, why not use another method. |
| Kristofer Krauel 06.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by AllDay
Writing tags is easy and can be done through the software. Ive tried all of the others and I honestly believe RE3 is by far the best, easiest and most stable. Download here http://www.mixshare.com/software.html |
| Cole Maroto 06.01.2013 | a second sample from dubspot done a year later: 81% correct this time (again with about 50% of the incorrect songs being a harmonically compatible key): http://blog.dubspot.com/dubspot-lab-...y-vs-beatport/ |
| Cole Maroto 06.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Nicky H
86% overall accuracy within dance music genres with a larger sample size than the dj tech tools test. also, within the 14% that were incorrect, 59% were in a harmonically compatible key. |
| Tera Baragan 06.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by jshawpro
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| Janyce Henningson 06.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by keeb
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| Sheilah Kurzhal 05.01.2013 | keeb, over several posts .. mosts of my points align with yours .. Except that when I produce, usually go hard and neglect spinning while I'm in the zone (sometimes weeks) .. and vice versa .. depending priorities and obligations. The difference is I will go through when I'm in DJ mode .. and correct key codes manually that I'm unsure of. I want my library 100% accurate. For quicker selection as you stated. I can find relevant options a lot faster. Helpful in creating more more dynamic, emotional MOMENTS. Rapid Evolution is very buggy. I used it ... because I didn't want to pay MIK ... for what I could sit down and figure out in no time .. at 100%. But it is a time saver like you said. AND I WOULD NEVER TURN THE VOLUME UP ON 2 SONGS THAT SOUND LIKE CRAP ... JUST BECAUSE THE KEY CODE IS THE SAME. That's ridiculous! Thanks a lot for the reply! And good information!! |
| Ok Moroski 05.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Nicky H
As for MIK vs RE3 - I used RE3 a little while back and found it to be buggy (crashed occasionally), particularly with large imports of files (greater than 100 or 1000 seemed to be inconsistent as far as crashing the program on a 2011 MBP with 8 gigs of ram, a solid state HDD, and a Sandy Bridge i7). MIK did cost money, but I haven't had to waste time trying to get it to work properly like I did with RE3; to me, that's worth some money. For you? Maybe not. I haven't tried the other program that was mentioned. I look at keycodes/harmonic mixing like I look at beatgrids. I know that if I went through and made sure to beatgrid all of my tracks by hand I could rely on sync no problem. To me, it's easier to have them auto-gridded, and deal with any grid issues myself since I'd rather manually beatmatch anyway. I can slightly adjust the timing of loops as needed and I don't use a ton of Traktor effects, so I don't really have any issues doing this. It's the same with MIK. If I went through and keycoded everything manually, it would probably give me more accurate results that I could rely on more blindly. The thing is, I'm just looking to make my searching process easier as I'm going through my collection, I'm not looking for a program to tell me what song I need to choose next. MIK is a tool like anything else - used improperly, it could make you look like an ass. However, it's far more helpful than not and personally it speeds up my song selection quite a bit while mixing. If I went to hand-keycode every one of my tracks, I might have it finished by the summer - not because I have a ton of music, but because I could only spend just so much time listening through tracks with the sole purpose of keycoding them. I've already gone through my entire collection and made sure it was all properly tagged, named, etc. - I'm not about to do that again for another 20-40% "accuracy" with keycoding. It isn't worth it. YMMV. |
| Sheilah Kurzhal 05.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Stereo:Type
Could the experts of which I speak, have met there max mental capacity for learning? Maxed out on their ambition to learn? Ok with not striving to master your craft and remaining mediocre? I believe any expert or master of ANYTHING would convey that you can only be content for so long ... before a new master ... with new ideas comes along and resets the bar of superiority for that skill or concept. I can't turn off my desire to learn anything and everything within my capacity about record / audio production, firstly ... and Digital DJ'ing, as well until my production talent can fund my way of life ... at which point I would spin for fun .. and probably still research the micro details of any aspect of DJ'ing that I FEEL complacent about. |
| Malissa Mountcastle 05.01.2013 | @R2D2, Your point doesn't come across as hating, though It's interesting how you equate discussion of this to something technological. I would say that this is precisely the opposite. The theoretical principles behind which any of this works are hundreds of years old. Mixed in Key itself is actually an exact copy of the circle of fifths principle (with numbers replacing the scales), which has been around since the 15th century. As far as the depth of analysis goes, even the most simple and intuitive seeming things can have great depth to them should you decide to consider them beyond their surface. I would argue that if it's such an intrinsic value, then why are there so many DJ's at every level out there who completely disregard it and consistently pick tunes which when played together sound like two dustbins fucking...? |
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