Why Pioneer before Allen & Heath?
Why Pioneer before Allen & Heath? Posted on: 09.11.2013 by Anja Ursprung Hi,Does anyone here prefer Pioneer before Allen & Heath mixers (you have to tried booth to have a valid opinion) effects aside? I have big problems to understand why, as I believe Allen & Heath is superior the pioneer. | |
| Gaynell Rydberg 23.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by Paka Ono
DJM500 is so cheap compared to an Xone 62. |
| Mimi Mahaffee 21.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by JZed
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| Narcisa Hughie 04.12.2013 | Hey guys just to let you know I've not forgotten about testing the DB4 I'm just really short on time at the mo as I'm having to look after my mum as she undergoes cancer treatment. I'm planning on getting a bunch of the most popular mixers and running a series of standardised tests across all of them so you can see the differences between them. The reality though is that I'll probably not find the time to do that before the new year. Will post back as soon as I have something to show you. If you have any suggestions as to what you'd like to see me test let me know |
| Gaynell Rydberg 23.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by Paka Ono
DJM500 is so cheap compared to an Xone 62. |
| Neville Blackinton 23.11.2013 | As someone who has both a DJM-500 and a Xone 62, I much much prefer the Xone to the DJM. Both in usage and sound quality. |
| Mimi Mahaffee 21.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by JZed
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| Narcisa Hughie 18.11.2013 | I'll see if I can get hold of one. Gonna be busy for the rest of the week though so won't be until next weekend |
| Alphonso Deitchman 18.11.2013 | Testing a digital Xone like the DB2 would be a better comparison, especially since some are having gain issues with it. |
| Narcisa Hughie 18.11.2013 | When I get chance I'll run the same tests on my 92 and post a video |
| Narcisa Hughie 18.11.2013 | Can't speak for the Xone 42 but interestingly we swapped the 900 for a Xone62 last evening
and ran the same tests It didn't clip at all when both the channel gain and master were maxed out! Tried turning the EQ up and whilst the 900 would start clipping instantly as soon as it was nudged out of the centre detent the Xone 62 didn't start clipping until +3dB |
| Alphonso Deitchman 19.11.2013 | The Xone 42 has far more red lighting than a DJM, on the Cue and Xfader assigns. |
| Armando Waithour 19.11.2013 | I used different djms but I love the robust feeling of the xone42. And I prefere the blue lights of the xone42 over the red leds of pioneer mixers! |
| Narcisa Hughie 18.11.2013 | 0dB FS at +7dB on the channel level meters with the trim at unity corresponds to what I was experiencing. Usually gear has a base noise level and the way to achieve the maximum SNR is to run it as hot as possible without it clipping. I'm not sure how reducing that +7dB to +4dB would help with the SNR. Also running the input hot into an ADC means the maximum possible of the bit rate is used If you look at the block diagram the attenuator is placed after the split for the digital output. Keeping the signal as hot as possible through to the digital split means the max bit rate is available for the digital out (a separate attenuator is available for this if clipping occurs) and the analogue output signal is attenuated just before the DAC to stop it clipping http://www.pioneer.eu/files/support/...M-900NXS_E.pdf Oh yeah and the new peak limiter sounds like shit! Really compressed, lifeless and dull sounding no matter what the level meters are saying. I left it off in a club install I was working on the other day |
| Alphonso Deitchman 18.11.2013 | Apparently the +4 dB point is optimal for signal to noise ratio. I guess that corresponds to +10 with the attenuator. http://community s.pioneerdj.com/entries/...-Output-level- |
| Narcisa Hughie 18.11.2013 | Regarding EQ the channel strip itself won't clip at all even if they are wound up to full. The clipping is solely down to the output stage and as makar1 says the EQ has exactly the same effect as raising the gain. If your master is set too high to begin with and you add EQ it will clip My personal take is you should engage the -6dB attenuator and set the channel trims and master output so that they just flash into the red +10dB light on the very strongest beats We did try it with some music (a Chems tune) and found that this meant the channel trim was at about 1o'clock and the master set at the start of the shaded area but this will vary from tune to tune dependant on its signal strength at different frequencies. As I've said before this is just one channel it doesn't take into account the summing of frequencies whilst in the mix hence the caution in setting the levels on the master as during a set you are unlikely to alter that with relative gain adjustments being done on the channel trims. This should allow enough headroom for high level transients to get through without clipping yet still keep the average level high enough to maintain a good signal to noise ratio |
| Alphonso Deitchman 18.11.2013 | Boosting EQ will be the same as increasing gain if the correct frequencies are present. The mixer itself is 32bit so there shouldn't be any clipping besides at the Master output stage. |
| Edwardo Rothenberger 18.11.2013 | It would be good to see how it performs with some EQ, would it not? |
| Jonathan Chiuchiolo 17.11.2013 | if you keep making vids, can you show where the clipping starts on the mixer or say the position. |
| Alphonso Deitchman 17.11.2013 | Looks like the red LEDs on the channel meters don't matter too much, and that there is still around 8? dB of headroom above the +10 red LED on the Master output when attenuation is set to 0. That seems to add up to the 19dB of headroom above 0 quoted by Pioneer. The +10 signal is about half the p-p amplitude vs the clipped waveform, so at that point you could fit in two red-barred decks of in-phase sine waves. Normal music I'm guessing will be more forgiving. |
| Narcisa Hughie 17.11.2013 | The results of today's experiment This video only shows part of the tests we did but I've detailed my findings below The source was a 1kHz 0dB FS recording burnt on to a CD which when played delivered a 2Vrms signal (top wave on scope) The channel strip won't clip but if the master is turned up to full it will clip quite easily when the -6dB Attenuator is not engaged You hear me say 'over' towards the end of the video that is when the 'over' light on the master output meters activates as I raise the master output Turn the attenuator on and it is possible to max out the master but you only have to nudge the EQ out its centre notch and the master output will start clipping This video only shows one channel it does not take into account the summation of multiple channels whilst mixing and how that will affect the master output clipping |
| Edwardo Rothenberger 16.11.2013 | That DJM 600 vid. Well, most Dj's turn up the EQ, and too far. So, what kind of headroom are you getting with a reasonable level of EQ, something like all bands set to 2 O'clock? |
| Alphonso Deitchman 16.11.2013 | Listen at 4:50 where he says he uses a function generator too, and gets no clipping. |
| Narcisa Hughie 15.11.2013 | I do have a scope I'll be using a CDJ2000 in order to match the setup that has been causing me problems. That will output a 0dB FS 1kHz recording at 2Vrms (according to the manual) If you look at that video you'll see the yellow trace which is coming out of his soundcard has a peak to peak measurement of less than 4v (the yellow wave has been scaled so that each square represents 1v and the blue wave scaled to 2v. Look closely at the bottom of the screen) At approx 3.8v p-p his card is only kicking out 1.34Vrms and is approx 4.76dBu down compared to the output of a CDJ2000 Unless the source is at a strong enough level no matter how much you turn up the gains it's never going to clip. |
| Jonathan Chiuchiolo 15.11.2013 |
...and that's why I hate my DJM-600, never knew about the master and gains not distorting it, I always had them way down, I guess that's why I always had such a bad noise floor. |
| Alphonso Deitchman 15.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by FilthyDave
You'd need an oscilloscope to do the test properly as they can easily handle much stronger signals than any audio hardware. How do you plan on playing back your sine wave CD? |
| Nancey Inderlied 15.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by FilthyDave
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| Narcisa Hughie 15.11.2013 | Almost certainly agree with your summation Shishdisma that it most likely overloaded the input stage of my processor although I would like to add that an XTA 448 processor and an MC2 E45 amp is not a bargain bin setup :-) |
| Nancey Inderlied 15.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by FilthyDave
Im going to give you a prediction of what I believe happened to your sub cones. They ran the output too hot and weren't paying attention to the patch/amp input, and the drivers threw from the patch/amps overloading. -6db isn't going to save you from throwing a driver from running the gain chain too hot. Just toevening , I ran my 2000 balanced at 10, and the patch channel volume pot (fader) had to be ran around 8-8:30 just to keep a steady signal below the patch mixer's limit, with my 2000's master running around 2o'clock (the bottom half of the guide bracket). If I had ramped up the volume even to the other half of the guide bracket, the patch would have clipped, and probably wouldn't have had the wiggle room in the faders to even support such a powerful output signal. You have to try to get a DJM to square off, bargain bin patch setups and touchy amp inputs, not so much. |
| Narcisa Hughie 15.11.2013 | Once the firmware update is applied that is correct but that limiter wasn't available until the 21st October this year and not everyone will have updated it yet. I'm just illustrating the fact that a 19dB headroom doesn't mean it is impossible to distort. It just means there is more room for manoeuvre before it does. Unfortunately instead of beating DJ's round the head for hitting red lights companies have built in more headroom. This just means the lights are no longer a reliable indicator of what is actually happening to the signal and they are taught to largely ignore them. The consequence of that is they believe they can run a mixer ragged with no ill effect. I'm actually borrowing a 900 Nexus this weekend to run some tests on it due to a dryhire gig managing to blow 4 sub drivers two weeks in a row. Unfortunately as it was a dryhire I wasn't there to witness it happen but the only common factor to both events was their 900 (which we'd previously applied the -6dB attenuator to) It's my plan to burn a 1kHz sine wave to a CD at 0dB Full Scale and get my scope on it to see exactly what is happening. I'll post a video if anything interesting occurs. |
| Alphonso Deitchman 14.11.2013 | The fact that there is a limiter built in does not mean the mixer is any easier to distort. Surely it means the exact opposite. |
| Narcisa Hughie 14.11.2013 | To quote the info sheet from Pioneer themselves: "When the Peak Limiter is enabled, you will be able to alleviate sudden, unpleasant digital clipping of the master output." |
| Alphonso Deitchman 14.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by FilthyDave
Even if you're hitting the reds, you won't actually be distorting unless the reds light up between transients. |
| Narcisa Hughie 14.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by makar1
DJ mixers are typically very hard to distort for this very reason.
See 'note 1' on this information sheet regarding it http://www.pioneer.eu/files/support/...M-900NXS_E.pdf |
| Alphonso Deitchman 14.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by FilthyDave
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| Narcisa Hughie 14.11.2013 | Shishdisma Any piece of audio gear
like a mixer or amp should faithfully reproduce the input signal but just add some gain. However in the real world this is practically impossible to do as every component in the signal path will add artifacts to it. It is the summation of all those artifacts that gives each piece of gear
its characteristic sound When talking about the differences between analogue and digital however we are normally talking about the differences in sound when the gear is being overdriven to the point of distortion. Analogue 'warmth' is just harmonic distortion. The signal is no longer a faithful reproduction. However because analogue distortion tends to be Odd order harmonics and digital distortion Even order harmonics we hear a difference in the sound For some reason the ear/brain combination interprets Odd orders as being warm & fuzzy and Even orders cold & clinical. I have my personal preference on A&H vs Pioneer based on years of pro sound engineering experience but as has been said before go demo them side by side and judge for yourself. Preferably using source material like Steely Dan as it was recorded and produced by fastidious engineers in the days before digital studios and over compression ruined everything... |
| Margareta Mogilevsky 14.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by MaxOne
So in short dropping a Xone 22 in might make a slight difference, but if you can find something like an original 62 (again with a master "fader" instead of a master "knob") then you will find what you're after. Regarding the whole A&H vs Pio thing, when I have the whole evening to myself and take a console then it's my 92, if I'm playing with others or supplying gear for an event then 9 times out of 10 it's my 850/900 mixer. If I'm playing in clubs then it's normally an 850/900. As much as I'm a massive A&H fan, the driver issues with the DB series have certainly let them down. Such a shame because these mixers I put ahead of the 850/900 in terms of sound quality, but if it's going to have issues dropping audio and glitchy pauses then it's not worth the risk of using them live. The 850/900 both have rock solid drivers and so my preference is these over the DB2&4. My preference over the 850/900 is my 92, but only when I have the time to setup external soundcard (TA10 or Fireface UC), it sounds so much better! |
| Gaynell Rydberg 14.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by LoopCat
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| Hellen Mindrup 14.11.2013 |
Originally Posted by MaxOne
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| Jonathan Chiuchiolo 14.11.2013 | why not just put in a tube amp, that will be warm as. |
| Hipolito Scionti 15.11.2013 | I'm not going to do this cause I believe my DJM900 sounds thumping... but would wiring a Xone 22 in between the DJM and the speakers simply add the analogue warmth to the sound ? Ultimately the DJM 900 is a giant 96kHz/24-bit soundcard so it'd be like running an Audio 10 through a Xone no? In theory getting the the DJM900 effects and functionality combined with Xone "warmth" Is this the best of both worlds? |
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