New controllers, brand

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New controllers, brand
Posted on: 10.07.2011 by Caridad Fan
Hi there!
So... Here is the thing... I'm making a brand for new controllers. I already have contacts to sell these and produce them with a good price.
Now, i'm searching for what people need!

My first controller idea is to round up effects and loop modules... What do you believe? For you, as digital djs, what do you look for? What's the things that you would love to have on a controller?

Starting with just effects and loop modules is easier for the investment and this way I can gain some experience on the market. Later I'll go with a full controller... Even though, ideas? I want to know what you would love to have on the controllers...
Kiyoko Wellisch
11.07.2011
Four small buttons in a square below each fader and then a cue button and 2 large buttons for cue and play/pause under that.

A big strip of buttons across the top some encoders etc for master volume, headphone volumes, etc.
Chasidy Heckenbach
11.07.2011
Originally Posted by ToOntown
Thanks, buddy. I'd buy it too! Maybe I'm onto something

Yes, agreed about the dead space. Some shift buttons would be perfect down there.

The knobs above the faders would be center-detent pots and I imagined the ones above the banks of pads to be endless encoders. It wasn't clearly stated in the post but that's what I was going for.
ah cool.... then my comments were pretty much redundant

that would be an almost perfect layout of pots+faders+encoders and pads for me anyway very flexible...

ofc it's back to the more traditional dj controller type layout (sort of) but i reckon that'd be pretty popular...
Shonda Soulier
11.07.2011
Originally Posted by zestoi
that's pretty cool - i would probably buy that if it was made.

a couple of buttons to each side of the fader would be useful - apart from that there's some dead space at bottom left+right - but theres nothing else wrong with it nice layout... 8x8 grids seem a good number ofc.maybe just a few extra pads...

i prefer pots for eq's but would like encoders for effects. that design up there ^^ would work well with pots above those faders ofc

edit: definately a few shift or bank select type buttons would be a nice addition to that layout
Thanks, buddy. I'd buy it too! Maybe I'm onto something

Yes, agreed about the dead space. Some shift buttons would be perfect down there.

The knobs above the faders would be center-detent pots and I imagined the ones above the banks of pads to be endless encoders. It wasn't clearly stated in the post but that's what I was going for.
Chasidy Heckenbach
11.07.2011
Originally Posted by ToOntown
Totally agree... I believe pads like what's on the nocturn or APC40 would be a lot cooler, more professional-looking, and not so DJTT-ish. Arcade buttons are great, but DJTT has cornered the DJ market with those types of controllers... Another one would just confuse people OR make you look unoriginal/copycat.

I honestly believe that a smaller APC40-type controller with encoders knobs and faders would kill it. If it's housed in an aluminum case (similar to the new MF pros) then there can't be questions of durability... If you build in a sound card, you could have one of the most killer controllers out there.

This is just a concept that I came up with in about 5 minutes so don't go critiquing too harshly

that's pretty cool - i would probably buy that if it was made.

a couple of buttons to each side of the fader would be useful - apart from that there's some dead space at bottom left+right - but theres nothing else wrong with it nice layout... 8x8 grids seem a good number ofc.maybe just a few extra pads...

Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
I'd want real pots that click for EQs rather than encoders. Just not the same maaan.
i prefer pots for eq's but would like encoders for effects. that design up there ^^ would work well with pots above those faders ofc

edit: definately a few shift or bank select type buttons would be a nice addition to that layout
Kiyoko Wellisch
11.07.2011
I'd want real pots that click for EQs rather than encoders. Just not the same maaan.
Shonda Soulier
11.07.2011
Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
Knobs then what then arcades? I'd try and keep controls in columns.

I don't believe there's much point in sticking arcade buttons on it, it'll just make a lot of people not take it seriously and those who are fans are much more likely to get a midifighter.
Totally agree... I believe pads like what's on the nocturn or APC40 would be a lot cooler, more professional-looking, and not so DJTT-ish. Arcade buttons are great, but DJTT has cornered the DJ market with those types of controllers... Another one would just confuse people OR make you look unoriginal/copycat.

I honestly believe that a smaller APC40-type controller with encoders knobs and faders would kill it. If it's housed in an aluminum case (similar to the new MF pros) then there can't be questions of durability... If you build in a sound card, you could have one of the most killer controllers out there.

This is just a concept that I came up with in about 5 minutes so don't go critiquing too harshly

Kiyoko Wellisch
11.07.2011
Knobs then what then arcades? I'd try and keep controls in columns.

I don't believe there's much point in sticking arcade buttons on it, it'll just make a lot of people not take it seriously and those who are fans are much more likely to get a midifighter.
Caridad Fan
11.07.2011
Originally Posted by zestoi
pots and buttons are nice - but you'd really want them to line up i reckon even if that mean less buttons.

the ones at the bottom are arcade buttons? if only space for 6 then i'd say go for more of the other buttons.
yes why not line up? this way it can even be used for sequencing for example!

arcade buttons are more robust than the others, you can't smash on the other since they're micro-components. The idea was to use 8 of these but since there is not much space... 6 is better than none.

also, i only have like 4 more slots on the teensy or something.
Chasidy Heckenbach
11.07.2011
pots and buttons are nice - but you'd really want them to line up i reckon even if that mean less buttons.

the ones at the bottom are arcade buttons? if only space for 6 then i'd say go for more of the other buttons.
Caridad Fan
11.07.2011
Anyhow... here is the first layout... What do you believe? I'm using the size of an already made enclosure so it doesn't get much expensive.



What do you believe?

Edit: I still don't know if the buttons rest well on the breadboard pcb... So... there may be variations...
Chasidy Heckenbach
11.07.2011
Originally Posted by sendoushi
There are some problems with small things like I stated before at least for now, i'll do a "normal" size one, maybe in a future, when I get better suppliers I can go with small.
which is why i said as small as is economically viable.

About the module... ... becomes expensive.
i didnt say micro-modular - just modular in *some* way. 90$ for the controller is a lot tho. i'm sure there must be cheaper alternatives. arduino's etc are pretty cheap.

About touch... let me just say this... I hate touch! I have an iphone which I love but for controlling things... I need a "touch" feedback also. I don't even know how can people use touch to control eheehhe
well that might be - but i presume you want to build a controller that will sell - not one that you particularly want to use tho nice if its both ofc...

so far you seem to be more keen on saying why all the ideas put forward to you are no good than taking them onboard?

you don't want to do a small controller or something the size/scale of the S4 etc - the middle ground of cdj+mixer is pretty much covered so it would either need to be some interesting combination of grid controller and rotaries etc or just rotary/etc based i guess.

there must be a market for a decent controller that comes with arcade buttons but does more than the midi fighters...
Caridad Fan
11.07.2011
Originally Posted by zestoi
if i were you i'd aim for as small as it economically viable and modular.

as for led feedback i'd say thats a must have. at least for any buttons/pads etc anyway. ofc there's the cheap launchpad for lots of non-velocity sensitive pads with feedback - not great pads but does the job and all in a fairly nice small package.

pots/rotaries/faders would be very cool - if rotaries then i believe it'd need led feedback of some kind - ideally with any rotaries also pushable as well.

certainly plenty of cdj/mixer style controllers around - so that market is pretty much covered anyway. the twitch is a very cool idea with the touch strips. personally i like jogs for controlling traktor but just need more pots/rotaries for ableton.

i'd really like to see some kind of modular product - where i could buy a grid module or a fader module or rotary one etc - and have them all connect together somehow.

currently i'm using my old hercules mk2 for traktor with launchpad for cues/samples etc as well as re-using a diff page on the launchpad for ableton and using a nanokontrol for levels. would really like more pots on the nanokontrol and also some endless encoders for effects in traktor.

haven't experimented too much with my scs.3d yet - but i like the possibilities of the touch surface esp with all the led feedback options.

the lpd8 is a nice combination of pads and pots - would have loved twice as many of both tho - so probably going to pick up another of those.

There are some problems with small things like I stated before at least for now, i'll do a "normal" size one, maybe in a future, when I get better suppliers I can go with small.

About the module... My idea of the module goes for example "i want to buy 5 more faders" and so you buy a module with 5 more faders. I'm not saying modular as one more fader or one more knob but still... didn't find an easy solution for this that won't be expensive. There is an interesting microcontroller that makes this easy but each costs 90$ and for each module you need one (see why only one fader gets expensive? no one will pay 90$ for one fader right?). There is a project with that kind of modular, it's interesting but a project like that... becomes expensive.

About touch... let me just say this... I hate touch! I have an iphone which I love but for controlling things... I need a "touch" feedback also. I don't even know how can people use touch to control eheehhe
Chasidy Heckenbach
10.07.2011
Originally Posted by sendoushi
No no not problem at all but i'm aiming for a medium controller not a a small one.
if i were you i'd aim for as small as it economically viable and modular.

as for led feedback i'd say thats a must have. at least for any buttons/pads etc anyway. ofc there's the cheap launchpad for lots of non-velocity sensitive pads with feedback - not great pads but does the job and all in a fairly nice small package.

pots/rotaries/faders would be very cool - if rotaries then i believe it'd need led feedback of some kind - ideally with any rotaries also pushable as well.

certainly plenty of cdj/mixer style controllers around - so that market is pretty much covered anyway. the twitch is a very cool idea with the touch strips. personally i like jogs for controlling traktor but just need more pots/rotaries for ableton.

i'd really like to see some kind of modular product - where i could buy a grid module or a fader module or rotary one etc - and have them all connect together somehow.

currently i'm using my old hercules mk2 for traktor with launchpad for cues/samples etc as well as re-using a diff page on the launchpad for ableton and using a nanokontrol for levels. would really like more pots on the nanokontrol and also some endless encoders for effects in traktor.

haven't experimented too much with my scs.3d yet - but i like the possibilities of the touch surface esp with all the led feedback options.

the lpd8 is a nice combination of pads and pots - would have loved twice as many of both tho - so probably going to pick up another of those.
Kiyoko Wellisch
10.07.2011
I said the nocation nocturn, not the novation sl zero.
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
No. Isn't there an LCD? You're talking about SL MK2 right?
Kiyoko Wellisch
10.07.2011
What LED...?
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
I believe the novation nocturn handles encoders with feedback the best. Nice and flexible. I wish they'd make mark2 with better build quality, more encoders and a less silly layout.
MK II is interesting yes but... tell me something... what does that LCD says? ehehe i'm wondering if i should a LCD on mine
Kiyoko Wellisch
10.07.2011
I believe the novation nocturn handles encoders with feedback the best. Nice and flexible. I wish they'd make mark2 with better build quality, more encoders and a less silly layout.
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
Originally Posted by Cardell
Preferably, but that is easy and cheap, doesn't have to be part of the encoder. A nearby LED accepting midi out will do. This is still however more than what most manufacturers have thought about. One example would be to have it light up when a track is in a loop, that can be toggled on/off by pushing the encoder, and loop size set by adjusting it. This is similar to what I have on my 4D now (without feedback) and like it will be on my Code (albeit with the LED rings presenting what size as well). The extremely small added cost from the LEDs is something I would suggest not skimping out on for that added functionality.
That's something I was already seeing on my controller. I believe that kind of feedback is a must-be! LEDs are not small added cost because it needs more inputs/outputs on the micro controller but i'm doing a nice controller not just one more so that's one of the features that I must have. That's the reason I was checking how to midi out on ableton, on traktor it's easy but unfortunately ableton doesn't have a menu like traktor's controller manager.
Jerold Nesselrode
10.07.2011
Preferably, but that is easy and cheap, doesn't have to be part of the encoder. A nearby LED accepting midi out will do. This is still however more than what most manufacturers have thought about. One example would be to have it light up when a track is in a loop, that can be toggled on/off by pushing the encoder, and loop size set by adjusting it. This is similar to what I have on my 4D now (without feedback) and like it will be on my Code (albeit with the LED rings presenting what size as well). The extremely small added cost from the LEDs is something I would suggest not skimping out on for that added functionality.
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
Originally Posted by Cardell
Sadly I'm not too familiar with Ableton so I don't know how Ableton handles midi out.

As for rotary encoders with feedback, there's not too many options, you could get an old BCR 2000 (bulky) or an APC 40 (unnecessary controls, also quite big). And neither bests the Code in terms of feedback anyways.
Even a simple on/off LED for the push part of the encoder does a lot, you don't need a full LED ring to have something over what most manufacturers have.
But you don't want anything like on off led right?
Jerold Nesselrode
10.07.2011
Sadly I'm not too familiar with Ableton so I don't know how Ableton handles midi out.

As for rotary encoders with feedback, there's not too many options, you could get an old BCR 2000 (bulky) or an APC 40 (unnecessary controls, also quite big). And neither bests the Code in terms of feedback anyways.
Even a simple on/off LED for the push part of the encoder does a lot, you don't need a full LED ring to have something over what most manufacturers have.
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
Originally Posted by Cardell
Only took a few days. It's at a friend's place in California and he'll be returning to Sweden in a maybe two weeks or so. I'll use more than just 8 encoders though and the LED feedback is important to me so I believe I'll keep it haha.
yes if you're really into music and stuff it's a good thing to have. as i said it values the money. that feedback is hard to make. i'm still wondering how ableton does the midi out so i can give some feedback like that. but rotary led feedback... its always hard because its expensive.
Jerold Nesselrode
10.07.2011
Originally Posted by sendoushi
Return it eheheh. By the way, they shipped right away?
Only took a few days. It's at a friend's place in California and he'll be returning to Sweden in a maybe two weeks or so. I'll use more than just 8 encoders though and the LED feedback is important to me so I believe I'll keep it haha.
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
Originally Posted by Cardell
This you tell me weeks after I purchase my Code and before I've had the chance to play with it haha.
Return it eheheh. By the way, they shipped right away?
Jerold Nesselrode
10.07.2011
Originally Posted by sendoushi
These are interesting statements... I really agree with you. I believe i'll be the first to make a controller with knobs and encoders.
The problem with livid code are those leds and silicone buttons. hard to make. it values the money but still...
This you tell me weeks after I purchase my Code and before I've had the chance to play with it haha.
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
Well ... I guess eeheh. Anyhow I believe i'll advance with this... believeing on 8 encoders, 8 pots and 8 buttons... i don't know yet...
Kiyoko Wellisch
11.07.2011
Surely that's what being a member of a tech. community is all about? :P
Caridad Fan
11.07.2011
Semantics
Kiyoko Wellisch
11.07.2011
I disagree with that title, nothing is actually being made live so I don't believe you can honestly and fairly call it live production. You're just picking tracks, it's DJing.

This is live production in my eyes. He's actually making the music rather than replaying it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUgJM...eature=related
Caridad Fan
11.07.2011
Ah... that's producing live ok ok. Yes it is ehehe. I was searching around here how to send midi events from ableton live. so i can know what leds to light up and stuff
Kiyoko Wellisch
11.07.2011
It's not just pressing play, it's selecting from hundreds of audio snippets across twenty odd channels of music you've produced yourself, plus dummy clips for automation. That's a fuck load more impressive and sounds way better than any standard DJ mix. (if you don't suck)
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
Naaa... I just dont like to use a mouse to control what I can have in buttons! And that way ... you're not djing... you're getting all done at home and then just pressing play... why don't you just record a set and play it? ehehe and a mouse... it seems that you're consulting your email! ehehe

i know what you mean, i use ableton live but i don't agree. i prefer to have all the control and if i dont have to use the mouse... great!
Kiyoko Wellisch
10.07.2011
This with ableton is that you don't really need that stuff. It's such a different ball game. Honestly that's where I'm interested in controllers for. I'd certainly go for something like the twitch for regular mixing, that's for sure! And the whole thing with hating the mouse is that you can't operate two controls at once, with ableton this isn't an issue since the effects of said controls are quantised so you have plenty of time to set up a bunch of action to happen at once.

Trust me, you'll be amazed what you can do with just firing clips in ableton. Some people prefer a grid (I don't, I can't work out what clips are what buttons), some people prefer the mouse. Personally I like a combination of a select-row encoder and fire buttons for each column.
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
I don't believe like you APC40 is big yes... maybe too big but still... It's better to have all the control and the more control you have over the program without using the mouse... better! At least as a dj/producer that's how I believe and I know for a fact that much producers/Djs hate to use the mouse and prefer to have a controller, easier to try things out for example.
Kiyoko Wellisch
10.07.2011
It's all about getting smaller with ableton my friend. The ableton djs I've seen using the mouse have consistently kicked the shit out of those using those using the APC40 :P

I believe it's to do with the fact they give less of a shit about controlling everything and more about designing a set that sounds good without random effect wankery.
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
Yes a bit steep the price but once again... it values. The smaller it gots the harder it is to get the components on place and stuff... And that's the problem... that needs a really well designed pcb, encoders and buttons made for that... it values the money it costs. But once again... I don't believe that a dj or a producer should work with small stuff at least for me, I dont see me working on that kind of thing... too tiny!
Kiyoko Wellisch
10.07.2011
I just thought of another 2 banks of pots/encoders! Faderfox FX3 + LD2. I'd love an LD2. Shame they are still pretty expensive.
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
Small controllers have the problem that it isn't easy to make them and the problem that it isn't very ergonomic, I wouldn't like to work with faderfoxes for example, too tiny! No space! That's why i'm aiming for a middle level. But still... You got me believeing... most of the stuff is easy to do with encoders and pots...
Caridad Fan
10.07.2011
Small controllers have the problem that it isn't easy to make them and the problem that it isn't very ergonomic, I wouldn't like to work with faderfoxes for example, too tiny! No space!

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