4MidiLoop Arcade Button mod + 4 Jog Wheels !!!
4MidiLoop Arcade Button mod + 4 Jog Wheels !!! Posted on: 26.08.2011 by Madlyn Trocino Hey just wanted to post pics of my new setup.I recently bought a 4MidiLoop believeing that it would be a solution to the dreaded "Layer" theory that drives me insane while playing Live. Perhaps I stand alone on believeing that "layers" are a drag, but I do believe "layers" interfere with the natrual work flow....especially while playing live. Anyways I do love the 4MidiLoop, but its not the be all end all 4 Deck solution it boasts. First of all the Button are small and the Play & Cue Buttons are way to close to the Volume fader IMO. Also the Buttons are not the most responcive Buttons ive dealt with. If you dont strike them dead center they dont engage, and even if you do strike them dead center, but not hard enough, they dont engage or they will engage for a millisecond then stop. I can deal with this Button behaviar on most functions (Cue Points, Key Lock ect etc) but I CAN NOT deal with this problem on "Play" buttons. Addmittedly there is a learning curve with these Buttons, but still I dont believe getting use to these Buttons will totally enliminate the possibility that they might not engage. Its not fun to DJ live while believeing that there is a possibility that the "Play" Button might not engage properly when stricking it. Also The 4MidiLoop doesnt have a good Jog Wheel solution. It does have deticated Endless Encoders that try to act like a Jog Wheel, but it is an Epic Fail if you are used to using the standard Jog Wheels that most Midi Controllers have, mainly because you cant spin the encoders in a constant way, you always have to stop then turn again as your fingers cant continually turn the encoders. For this reason....the Encoder Jogs pretty much suck. So after much thought and research I decided to tackle the Jog Wheel problem first. I wanted 4 Jog Wheels to acompany the 4 Deck situation that the 4MidiLoop offers. So I ended up buying 2 ICON IDJ midi controllers and stripping them of everything but the Jog Wheels. Then went to EVERYTHING PLASTIC and got 2 Plastic top plates custom made to cover all the holes from the Buttons, Dials and Faders that I stripped out. Once the face plates were on, all that remained was dual Jog Wheels on both controllers. The ICON IDJ Touch Sensitive Jog Wheels are THE strong point of the contoller. I would compare their usability to the VCI-100 Jogs. The dials faders and buttons on the ICON IDJ are total crap and its not possible to get LED feedback from the buttons (even while using the included software). However you can use the included software to change Midi Channels and velocity etc etc, so thats pretty useful. Also if you make changes to the controllers with the software, they are fed to the controller and the controller then stays in the state you program it in without having to run the software again. Also there are several Buttons that have an "always on" state (which I covered with the top plate), as well as the Jog Wheels which also have an "always on" State (Red & Blue) depending if the "touch senser" is engaged or not. When I custom made the top plates, I made sure to make seperate holes under the Jog Wheels where the "always on" LEDs where so the Jogs are always lit from underneath. This is great in low light siuations. Next I tackled the Button problem (4MidiLoop Buttons dont always work) by adding Arcade buttons to the bottom of the 4MidiLoop. For the brain of the Arcade buttons, I used a MidiFighter board that easily fits inside the 4MidiLoop. BTW there is PLENTY of room inside the 4MidiLoop for modding. Of course I couldnt fit an "assembled" MidiFighter inside the 4MidiLoop, so I just used the brain portion of the board and soldered wire from the board to each Arcade button and made sure to insulate the board so it is seperated from the 4MidiLoop board. To drill the holes in the 4midiloop I used a step drill for metal. The trick was to make the drill speed slow and to take my time. But all I used was an adverage drill, no machine shop of press of anything. And for the template, I used the top of the MidiFighter for a guide to mark the hole size and spacing. The final width of this this entire setup (including the Jog Wheels) isnt even as wide as an NI S4...... Here is pics of the finished project !!!! | |
| Leida Potestio 19.12.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
If yes, is it because of the ICON iDJ only, or all the controllers do the same ? I am kind of shocked, I didn't knew that the pcb board has an "electronic flow" even if the unit is not at all powered at that time. Well, the fact is that i own an iDJ and i wanted to extend the leads for the potentiometers (EQ knobs) so that i can arrange them vertically on two columns (like in Traktor). I want to give it a new case aswell so that the final product will have a lot more space between the controls (and that is how you solve the space problem with the iDJ).Do you believe it can be done ? I don't want to break it ! And if the controller will not break if the potentiometers (and the faders) will be removed and soldered again, does that mean that you can change them with better faders and potentiometers ?? |
| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
Originally Posted by thictool
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| Chasidy Heckenbach 26.11.2011 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
So to recap: the IDJ has great jogwheels, but it's buttons and faders are shit and it doesn't light up... no wonder you brought a 4midiloop to cover the functions not available (or are crap) on the IDJ!
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| Chasidy Heckenbach 14.09.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
it's a real shame tho about the lack of midi feedback. the iStage seems to have it which also seems pretty cheap atm. the istage is 60quid and the vestax padone seems to have dropped from 120quid to only 90. suddenly i feel the need to buy something buy an istage or play it safe and go with a 2nd launchpad or go with the brick of a padone? decisions decisions... |
| Madlyn Trocino 14.09.2011 |
Originally Posted by zestoi
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| Chasidy Heckenbach 12.09.2011 |
Originally Posted by Onimode
ebay ofc http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130491509477 edit: back to the idj i believe it has 2 things going for it really... first it has really great jogs as part of an overall setup (like the OP) and secondly it's so compact and can be used by itself if u needed something nice and small to transport. |
| Kayce Mesia 12.09.2011 |
Originally Posted by zestoi
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| Chasidy Heckenbach 12.09.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
no led feedback does suck - something i had assumed it had i guess. if we're lucky maybe they'll fix that with a firmware update. but probably not... the far right hand fader on mine was actually broken when it turned up, level faders still seem fine tho and the xfader. i wouldn't say i love mine but it does give me a decent set of pots and buttons for effects etc. i do agree that the best thing about it are the jogs which is actually the reason i bought it in the first place. i just wanted some controller with touch sensitive jogs to add to my options. the only other alternative i could see was that "gemini firstmix" i actually like using my cheapo djtech djm101 midi mixer for basic 2 channel stuff, the jogs from the idj for decks a/b and then the rest of the idj for effects and/or sample decks. tho now i have 2 scs.3d's they can do pretty much everything, but having real jogs is nice... out of interest this is mine with new knobs: |
| Leida Potestio 19.12.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
If yes, is it because of the ICON iDJ only, or all the controllers do the same ? I am kind of shocked, I didn't knew that the pcb board has an "electronic flow" even if the unit is not at all powered at that time. Well, the fact is that i own an iDJ and i wanted to extend the leads for the potentiometers (EQ knobs) so that i can arrange them vertically on two columns (like in Traktor). I want to give it a new case aswell so that the final product will have a lot more space between the controls (and that is how you solve the space problem with the iDJ).Do you believe it can be done ? I don't want to break it ! And if the controller will not break if the potentiometers (and the faders) will be removed and soldered again, does that mean that you can change them with better faders and potentiometers ?? |
| Madlyn Trocino 28.11.2011 | Hey heres a Vid that gives some additional FX info on how I have them implemented into my 4midiloop Arcade Button Mod w/4 Jogs Wheels built into a dj case. http://youtu.be/e4Zf4QEtoPw |
| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
Originally Posted by thictool
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| Madlyn Trocino 26.11.2011 | answers... 1) You must have a ton of usb's connecting through that hub. I counted 5 + the RME interface (but that's on a separate USB port). No problems running through the hub then? Yeah there is 7 USB ports on the Hub and all are taken. Including a extention cable from one of the ports so I can connect any random thing I want on the fly. Babyface (and any soundcard really) should have its own deticated USB Port on the MBP because it is phantom powered. There is no problems running all thru the HUB provided it all stays in the same connective pattern, which it does because the setup never changes. 2) I was looking at getting the 4midiloop, and was believeing I could get away without jogs. I tried mapping a controller where the jogs controlled FX, but you can't get away from the fact that sometimes, it is just so handy to be able to scrub through the track quickly (e.g. checking you have the right tune or creating new cuepoints). I love your solution. 3) Layers suck.. period. Totally agree with this (& this was why I was looking at the 4midiloop). Sometimes you need to get to a control FAST, and if you have to change layer and then press, it's just too much! I spent ages mapping my first controller with 4 layers, but when it actually came to using it, I couldn't, I kept forgetting which layer I was in and messing up my mix (luckily in my bedroom!) 4) The RME interface - I have an Echo Audio Layla 3G, and yeah, the Traktor interface sounds awful next to it. I don't believe I will ever buy an Audio 8/4 etc. I will always be looking at RME or Echo when it comes to a soundcard. They are just so nice sounding. COULDNT AGREE MORE !!! 5) How do you apply the reverb... is it set to 'hold' in traktor so that it only reverbs whilst button is held down? Yes mostly. My FX exit button stategy is basically that. HOLD is the primary idea. I use FX that alters whatever is playing thru the main output, and also FX that only effect that Deck individually. Since I have such specific ideas about what sound goods (or Not), I almost always use "Single FX" which can get tricky because there are only 4 FX slots. Ive learned to make use of creating a button that will turn on FX on Deck A (for instance), while turning it off on Decks B,C,&D I dont always have an exit button though. For instance I have Buttons set for Echo, and since Echo bleeds out on it own, there is no need for an Exit button. I guess I could make a vid showing more specifically what im talking about here. I dont really believe my FX solution is all that brilliant, or something that hasnt been discovered by 1000s of other people. But all my ideas are based on either frustration over what I have always wanted to do, but could not due to software & hardware limitations....or...by watching and reading various posts and seeing how other people do it.... |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 26.11.2011 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
So to recap: the IDJ has great jogwheels, but it's buttons and faders are shit and it doesn't light up... no wonder you brought a 4midiloop to cover the functions not available (or are crap) on the IDJ!
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| Sulema Eshel 26.11.2011 | So I believe that the IDJ is a great unit.... No, seriously though, great project and vid. Some points tho: 1) You must have a ton of usb's connecting through that hub. I counted 5 + the RME interface (but that's on a separate USB port). No problems running through the hub then? 2) I was looking at getting the 4midiloop, and was believeing I could get away without jogs. I tried mapping a controller where the jogs controlled FX, but you can't get away from the fact that sometimes, it is just so handy to be able to scrub through the track quickly (e.g. checking you have the right tune or creating new cuepoints). I love your solution. 3) Layers suck.. period. Totally agree with this (& this was why I was looking at the 4midiloop). Sometimes you need to get to a control FAST, and if you have to change layer and then press, it's just too much! I spent ages mapping my first controller with 4 layers, but when it actually came to using it, I couldn't, I kept forgetting which layer I was in and messing up my mix (luckily in my bedroom!) 4) The RME interface - I have an Echo Audio Layla 3G, and yeah, the Traktor interface sounds awful next to it. I don't believe I will ever buy an Audio 8/4 etc. I will always be looking at RME or Echo when it comes to a soundcard. They are just so nice sounding. 5) No xfader then You preferred decent cue/stop buttons. The XF is starting to become redundant anyway, now that we have 4 decks. 6) The play positioning really does suck now that I have seen the vid. Just putting them in the space at the bottom of the fader would have worked well (although the XF may have interfered with them, but in your setup, this is not an issue). 7) Shocked by the build quality of those pots. On the 4midiloop website, they boast about how it is made from "aircraft grade aluminium".... shame they didn't attach the pots to it! For the cost of the unit, I can't believe they took this shortcut! Great vid, best review I have seen of the 4midiloop, and it wasn't even a review. Yeah, you *may* have been waffling around 13 mins in, but these waffling vids are often better than ones that are more structured. The fx stop button with reverb is handy (which you might not have mentioned if not waffling!). Interested in what as zestoi said - how do you apply the reverb... is it set to 'hold' in traktor so that it only reverbs whilst button is held down? So to recap: the IDJ has great jogwheels, but it's buttons and faders are shit and it doesn't light up... no wonder you brought a 4midiloop to cover the functions not available (or are crap) on the IDJ! escapeMCP P.S. Get some funky jog wheel stickers! It looks too plain at the moment. |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 25.11.2011 | cool, really interesting video. if the idj was 1% why u created it then u can blame me 99% for derailing the thread i guess your "exit button" makes a lot of sense. nothing worse than using some effects and then not being able to get out of it just when u need to. it disables the main effects and then enables a mild reverb then from what u said? u then manually disable that or it's set to auto decrement or something when held down? i can see the point of having dedicated buttons for certain effects - the gater is probably the one i use most too. as for layers... i hate layers for anything i need to get to right away, anything to do with levels etc - but then i'd prefer to use them for less used stuff, like the slicer effect or something. stuff i want access to but don't use too much. if actions A+B can share the same set of buttons if i know i'll never need to use them at the same time. you've got a lot of controls on that 4midiloop anyway so no real need i guess... having said all that - the last time i dj'd out was years ago on a pair of turntables and fairly basic mixer - no fx at all - just levels+eq+kills so i guess i don't know quite what i'd need when i finally play out on purely digital stuff |
| Madlyn Trocino 25.11.2011 | Somehow this thread has become more about the IDJ unit. The IDJ contoller is about 1 percent of why I built this custom controller. Heres a vid I made explaining the 4Midiloop based rig and what brought me to this project. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiuoZcrHB54 <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kiuoZcrHB54" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 14.09.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
it's a real shame tho about the lack of midi feedback. the iStage seems to have it which also seems pretty cheap atm. the istage is 60quid and the vestax padone seems to have dropped from 120quid to only 90. suddenly i feel the need to buy something buy an istage or play it safe and go with a 2nd launchpad or go with the brick of a padone? decisions decisions... |
| Madlyn Trocino 14.09.2011 |
Originally Posted by zestoi
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| Chasidy Heckenbach 12.09.2011 | has anyone tried the icon istage at all? posting here as icon stuff doesn't seem to get many responses on the community
for some reason. i just saw some for 70quid, which is cheaper than the launchpad and is velocity sensitive. it also (unlike the idj) does seem to have midi led feedback from watching a youtube vid... |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 12.09.2011 |
Originally Posted by Onimode
ebay ofc http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130491509477 edit: back to the idj i believe it has 2 things going for it really... first it has really great jogs as part of an overall setup (like the OP) and secondly it's so compact and can be used by itself if u needed something nice and small to transport. |
| Kayce Mesia 12.09.2011 |
Originally Posted by zestoi
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| Chasidy Heckenbach 12.09.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
no led feedback does suck - something i had assumed it had i guess. if we're lucky maybe they'll fix that with a firmware update. but probably not... the far right hand fader on mine was actually broken when it turned up, level faders still seem fine tho and the xfader. i wouldn't say i love mine but it does give me a decent set of pots and buttons for effects etc. i do agree that the best thing about it are the jogs which is actually the reason i bought it in the first place. i just wanted some controller with touch sensitive jogs to add to my options. the only other alternative i could see was that "gemini firstmix" i actually like using my cheapo djtech djm101 midi mixer for basic 2 channel stuff, the jogs from the idj for decks a/b and then the rest of the idj for effects and/or sample decks. tho now i have 2 scs.3d's they can do pretty much everything, but having real jogs is nice... out of interest this is mine with new knobs: |
| Madlyn Trocino 12.09.2011 | Ive gone thru 4 IDJ controllers making the mod I did ANDin my opinion... The IDJ Pots are way too close together, and the knobs fall off constantly. The Pitch Faders break, and drag along the plastic making it impossible to make any fine adjustments. The Buttons are rubber with tons of travel and cannot be mapped for and LED feedback / output. Im not trying to trash the IDJ here.....just revieling its weaknesses as I see them in case somebody else believes the hype that ICON is trying to sell. ICON makes it seem like the IDJ is LED mappable AND ITS NOT. And the list goes on and on. The Jogs are by far the best and most quality part on this controller. zestoi - It sounds like you really love your IDJ, and thats alwsum. All the words I used in this post are simply my opinion....nothing more. |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 12.09.2011 | i don't see why the only people who are looking to buy the idj want to remove all but the jogs... i replaced all the knobs on mine today for some decent feeling ones that are a bit taller and i find it quite cool... if all someone really needs (like the OP) are some jogs then fair enough - but the pots arent too bad, or the buttons and u could just not use them if u didnt need them... |
| Madlyn Trocino 12.09.2011 | Modding the idj is no easy feat. Taking the buttons out is easy, but removing the pitch faders and rotarys are not so easy. I learned that if u remove the rotarys and faders completely, you break the electronic flow of the pcb board - meaning nothing works once the flow is interupted. I had to manually leave the faders and rotarys connected to the board and cut them at the base of the pcb board so they wouldnt poke through the faux top peice I custom made. Also there is no room inside the idj to add any additional harware, its really tight inside. |
| Lisha Mazaheri 10.09.2011 | Hi, i thought about getting the idj as well because its so cheap and i need something to practice beatmatching (i just have 2 x1) Do you believe it would work fine for that? I would take out all the buttons and faders, cover it, solder 2 new pitchfaders into the idj and give it a new case. |
| Madlyn Trocino 08.09.2011 | No heat issues....Runs cooler actually because its way less intensive for the Mac to not have to run its own LCD. Plus its overall cooler because there is no LED lights running on the MAC. Theres lots of info on this...Google MAC Clamshell mode... |
| Latia Sotak 08.09.2011 | very impressive! are there any heat issues running the MacBook pro in clamshell mode? |
| Madlyn Trocino 08.09.2011 | I built thIS setup shown in earlier pics of this thread into a DJ Case. the case demensions are 24 in (back to front) 22 inch (side to side) and 4 inch (high) with the lid off. Everything in the case (all included equiptnebt) weights about 34 pounds with the lid off. Everything is extremely tight while lid is on and off. I hated setting this rig up at the venue prior to a gig when I was all in seperate peices, so my goal here was to build something where I could open the lid, plug in a few cables and be ready to go. I added a 12 inch external monitor to the rig so I could save space and because its much less intensive on my MacBook Pro. You save a whole lotta resources on your MAC by doing this and it runs much cooler. Running an external from MacBook Pro is sometimes refered to as CLAMSHELL MODE. I also added a Direct Line convertor Rolls MB 15b (hidden underneath) so that I could have a DB boost if I needed one while connecting RCA or XLR from my Sound Card. This helps if I want to run straight to the AMPS instead of having to rely on whatever mixer the club happenes to have there. So heres whats in the setup / DJ Case (Some you can see and some you cant see if its hidden within the case): 4MidiLoop w/ 8 Arcade Buttons which I modded myself Two ICON IDJ controllers which I stripped and modded to only contain 2 Jogs Wheels each (4 Jogs in all) Mini Keyboard Rolls Direct Line Box MB15b. Allows DB Boost to XLR BAlanced and can make an RCA output have a Balanced DB Output as well Powered T7 USB Hub w/ 7 Powered USB Ports (Hidden underneath) RME Babyface Soundcard (Best sounding sound card I ever heard) It makes NI Audio 2,4,6,8,10 sound like a transistor Radio 12 inch TFT LED External Monitor (which can handle 1024 - 768 Resolution Two LED Lights (One For Keyboard & One for the 4MidiLoop) A power strip providing power to all things in the setup as well as 4 open plugs for anything I might need to additionally plug in. Theres a 8 Foot cord attached to the power strip so I can plug it into any outlet and instantly everything is powered on. Little Dot MK III Tube Headphone Amplifier (So the headphone monitor volume coming from my soundcard can be made much louder) MacBook Pro A MACBOOK stand. Allows me to run my MAC in Clamshell mode and keep it safe, space saving / compact and solid while it runs in "closed" mode Honestly this setup is a dream come true. |
| Madlyn Trocino 05.09.2011 | Im not at all interested in "Scratching" with the added Jogs in this setup or with 4MidiLoops Endless Encoders. The purpose I use Jogs for is mostly searching thru tracks (in my headphone) in an "on the fly" manner while setting various Cue Points so I can manipulate things that I feel works in that moment within the track im seeking thru while playing live, and for pitch bending. If your into premade "Cue Points" and spending time at home prepping for sets, then by all means I can see no need for Jogs. However im not really inspired at "home" to do much of anything except pet my dog and eat way too much. While playing live I am VERY inspired to do all kinds of things that I normally wouldnt believe of....so in this senario I prefer to have the ability to seek, bend, drop Cue Points and manipulate with the most ease (hence Jogs). I dont want to be constricted to pre-made Cue Points and a limited ability to set Cues "On The Fly", Seek thru and Bend tracks. 4MidiLoop offers just that....limited seek, limited bend, limited Jog functionality all across the board.....not to mention the "sometime I work & sometimes I DONT work" Play and Cue buttons. Just my opinion....and unless a person owns a 4MidiLoop or happens to have tryed one, I dont really believe they could speak with any authority on these matters. |
| Breana Singerman 28.08.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
CDM: Let |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 27.08.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
they seem to have finally released their icreative, touch sensitive controller, too now. |
| Madlyn Trocino 26.08.2011 | I bought mine in England at a store called JUNO Records. http://www.juno.co.uk/products/icon-...gle%2BShopping |
| Aleta Hartzler 26.08.2011 |
Originally Posted by zestoi
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| Madlyn Trocino 26.08.2011 |
Originally Posted by Nephew
Im useing the seperate Jogs cause.....ummm, I like em? and cause the Jog / Endless Encoder functionallity on the 4MidiLoop completely SUCKS. BTW if the 4MidiLoop was moving "away" from Jog wheels, I highly doubt they would include Endless Encoders labeled SCRATCH / SEEK |
| Breana Singerman 26.08.2011 | And on that note, what are you using the jog wheels for even? |
| Breana Singerman 26.08.2011 | I thought the idea behind the 4midiloop was to move away for jog wheels? |
| Chasidy Heckenbach 26.08.2011 |
Originally Posted by thictool
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| Kecia Wnukowski 26.08.2011 | Great stuff and good mod, thanks for showing us. Your unit is nice. |
| Madlyn Trocino 26.08.2011 |
Originally Posted by rutierut
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