What's missing from NI controllers?

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What's missing from NI controllers?
Posted on: 18.06.2012 by Angella Mosiniak
What are some of the obvious hardware flaws in the S4, Maschine, X1, F1?

If you could design modular controllers like the CMD line, what would they feature and how would they be different from what is already on the market?

I'm starting my own controler company and want your input on where NI went wrong, as well as, where the market is heading.

Thanks,

Vincent
Celine Surico
07.07.2012
Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
I still have no idea why they made the mixer section on the S# glossy...
They learn from their mistakes...
Mariah Hegemann
07.07.2012
Originally Posted by Fubar
Native instruments' gear that felt like a&h's would end the competition. The solid construction of my xone dx is getting more distinctive every time I try something else, even top of pioneers djm-line. Vestax vci-line is not far behind though, but the dx still feels better.
Agreed. A&H's build quality is fantastic. I believe NI should ditch their current finishes--the matte black loves to show off scratches and the glossy black is great displaying fingerprints. I also find that the USB ports on their controllers can be very hard to work with. Their buttons and whatnot are nice, but it's the little things that they could be doing that would make a difference over their competition.
Rosina Steinkuehler
06.07.2012
Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
You're still just using a typical windows PC then, what's the advantage over a laptop?

Don't all tablets used ARM processors? How are you going to run traktor on that?
The planned Microsoft Surface Pro appears to use a Core i5 processor not that I believe it would be a viable solution (lack of tactile feedback kills it for me).
Kiyoko Wellisch
07.07.2012		I doubt it or they would have spotted the problem on the S4 prototypes. Or the S4. Or the S2 prototypes...

I believe they made a crappier product purely so the marketing pictures would look shinier.
Celine Surico
07.07.2012
Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
I still have no idea why they made the mixer section on the S# glossy...
They learn from their mistakes...
Kiyoko Wellisch
07.07.2012		I still have no idea why they made the mixer section on the S# glossy...
Mariah Hegemann
07.07.2012
Originally Posted by Fubar
Native instruments' gear that felt like a&h's would end the competition. The solid construction of my xone dx is getting more distinctive every time I try something else, even top of pioneers djm-line. Vestax vci-line is not far behind though, but the dx still feels better.
Agreed. A&H's build quality is fantastic. I believe NI should ditch their current finishes--the matte black loves to show off scratches and the glossy black is great displaying fingerprints. I also find that the USB ports on their controllers can be very hard to work with. Their buttons and whatnot are nice, but it's the little things that they could be doing that would make a difference over their competition.
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
07.07.2012		you haven't factored the most important variable in determining the quality of NI gear and that is the monopoly they are trying to construct within the dj industry.

Because they are able to withhold software functions from operating with other vendors gear they don't need to produce as high standard a product as they offer the best integration, therefor they can increase their profit margin by using cheaper materials which means they can reduce their prices to much lower than the competition and still offer the most stable, highest resolution fully featured hardware, as they use their own communication protocol and restrict the standard protocol just enough to make it useable but not perfect. if you want to experience full resolution midi have a play with an ns6, there is no HID just midi and is better than the S4 in every way.

If NI wanted to they would just need to add one simple definition to traktor in regard to jogs and that is how many ticks per rotation a jog has so the software can do the math to calculate the jog sensitivity, it would already be set to standard midi which is 128 steps. If you want an example of this simple implementation look at VDJ Pro PCDJ or djdecks, they all allow full resolution midi.

don't hold your breath for the kontrol series quality or traktor's ability to intigrate 3rd party hardware to change any time soon. Honestly your only chance for anything to change is for software competition from VDJ8 or serato to open itself up to all hardware.
Hazel Oeschger
07.07.2012		Native instruments' gear that felt like a&h's would end the competition. The solid construction of my xone dx is getting more distinctive every time I try something else, even top of pioneers djm-line. Vestax vci-line is not far behind though, but the dx still feels better.
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
06.07.2012		djtech do a pretty reasonable rip off of the S4, it's only got 2 mixer channels but it's switchable for 4 channels and is equipt with a standalone mixer. It's made by harpin who make reloop gear so should be great quality.

Kiyoko Wellisch
06.07.2012		Sounds good. Something to sit next to an X1

I'd also like an Audio2XL, with 4 stereo outputs rather than 2
Mariah Hegemann
06.07.2012		I believe if NI came out with another modular controller, I'd like it to be a small mappable mixer with a built-in soundcard--basically, a K2 but improved. The K2 is great if you can map everything and can get used to their editor, but a modular mixer for both versions of Traktor would be welcomed. It'd be even better if it were a standalone mixer as well, as that functionality is missing from their two big controllers. I was believeing of something with a two-channel mixer section of an S4 (filters are a must) with a solid set of inputs and outputs. It could be sold in two- and four-channel versions and would allow you to play out with nothing else but an X1 and maybe an F2. Now that I believe of it, a four-deck version might be kind of clunky. I'd put a premium on portability first.
Chasidy Heckenbach
06.07.2012		i was going to say that... u won't get much controller for 250usd from a small company i suspect. for that sort of money you're looking at the lower end mass produced clone controllers mostly. tho nice small modular controllers for about 150usd a piece would be very nice oh wait...
Kiyoko Wellisch
06.07.2012		What do you mean by better USB?

And I doubt they would make lots of money- the profit margin would be tiny or non existent on a piece like that.
Michell Wehrmeyer
06.07.2012		Make a controller that functions just like the S4, but with better USB and make it only cost $250. You'll make lots of money!
Kiyoko Wellisch
06.07.2012		That's not a tablet, it's a laptop with a removable keyboard :P
Rosina Steinkuehler
06.07.2012
Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
You're still just using a typical windows PC then, what's the advantage over a laptop?

Don't all tablets used ARM processors? How are you going to run traktor on that?
The planned Microsoft Surface Pro appears to use a Core i5 processor not that I believe it would be a viable solution (lack of tactile feedback kills it for me).
Yong Aptekar
05.07.2012		I like the keyboard in the event that I need to pull up a track quickly that is not in a play list. I wouldn't want to hassle around with typing on a tablet for that.

As for tactile controls, knobs/buttons/faders over a piece of glass anyday.
Chasidy Heckenbach
04.07.2012		only advantage i guess is having the use of a touchscreen and not having a keyboard that u probably don't need to use during a live performance and no spinning hard disk platters. an sdd in a laptop would solve the hdd issue i guess, tho probably dont need the speed or capacity of a big drive anyway. i do like the idea of a touch screen, tho not as a replacement for tactile controllers, not too fussed about the keyboard, it can always just be covered up.
Yong Aptekar
04.07.2012		Mostly magic, a little luck.

I am still not convinced that a tablet+docking station is an improvement over a laptop. You are still talking 2 pieces of separate gear, over one all-in-one piece.

Maybe the design is a PC using the tablet as an external monitor.
Angella Mosiniak
04.07.2012		You will see once I prototype it
Kiyoko Wellisch
04.07.2012		You're still just using a typical windows PC then, what's the advantage over a laptop?

Don't all tablets used ARM processors? How are you going to run traktor on that?
Angella Mosiniak
04.07.2012		Not exactly, it's a performance enhancing tablet dock that almost any tablet will easily fit. It also clips onto your regular gear seamlessly.

I just drafted the concept yesterday. Obviously this is still in development, and it may need a little tweaking, but I believe I have all the important details covered.
Kiyoko Wellisch
04.07.2012		But it's just another windows PC?
Angella Mosiniak
04.07.2012		The hardware design I just mentioned. It's pretty cool
Kiyoko Wellisch
04.07.2012		How were you planning to run traktor without a laptop?
Angella Mosiniak
03.07.2012
Originally Posted by thanatos
what would kickass would be a good digital stuff with a buitin software like the SCS 4 DJ but with more creativity like step sequencer for cue point, built in remix deck, 2 dj deck with realtime timestrech and pitchshift

having no laptop on stage would be a blessing
Working on it

Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
A little all in on step sequencer would be really neat.
I've got a trakrtor .tsi that does step sequencing, now to get rid of the laptop I have to build some hardware that I made sketches of today...
Kiyoko Wellisch
03.07.2012		A little all in on step sequencer would be really neat.
Mendy Folts
03.07.2012		what would kickass would be a good digital stuff with a buitin software like the SCS 4 DJ but with more creativity like step sequencer for cue point, built in remix deck, 2 dj deck with realtime timestrech and pitchshift

having no laptop on stage would be a blessing
Kiyoko Wellisch
03.07.2012
Originally Posted by deevey
A tablet will cool faster. The backplate (on most I assume) will contain (or be) a heatsink. A bigger heatsink = better heat distribution = better cooling.
Only if it's proportionally larger.
Rolanda Clodfelder
03.07.2012
Originally Posted by MrPopinjay
I'm pretty sure that's backwards. A tablet has a smaller surface area to volume ratio so assuming both the phone and the tablet generate the same amount of heat per unit volume the tablet would have a harder time cooling down passively, right?
A tablet will cool faster. The backplate (on most I assume) will contain (or be) a heatsink. A bigger heatsink = better heat distribution = better cooling.

Tablet+docking station/keyboard = laptop.
Why would you limit yourself to inferior pocessing power when you can have a laptop? You are talking about 2 pieces of gear to buy instead of just one.
By that arguement Why would you limit yourself to a laptop when you could have better processing power on a desktop..

Tablet = Lighter & easy to browse library from a handheld position as opposed to crouched over a laptop or have it sitting above your other gear, a tablet could mean that all you need is a wireless connection in the booth to some kind of docking router / media player and no other gear is required to be brought by the DJ (in theory).

Personally I believe the idea of just arriving to a gig with nothing needed but a tablet which connects to the clubs own media players is elegant as fcuk solution.
Kiyoko Wellisch
03.07.2012
Originally Posted by supraman1120
Ummm, no, that is completely backwards. The phone would be significantly harder to remove heat from than a tablet. The iPhone is literally less than half the size of an iPad while packing pretty similar hardware, less space = a harder time managing heat.
I'm pretty sure that's backwards. A tablet has a smaller surface area to volume ratio so assuming both the phone and the tablet generate the same amount of heat per unit volume the tablet would have a harder time cooling down passively, right?
Celine Surico
03.07.2012		In some cases tablets are far faster than laptops -- Flashdrives and fast I/O databus architecture compared with hard disk spindles going over USB/FW... I agree it's just cleaner to go with an iPad system as iPads will get more and more internal space over time. And the ARM chips are wicked fast and now even have cores.
Angella Mosiniak
03.07.2012
Originally Posted by dripstep
You are talking about a laptop. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are talking about at all.

Tablet+docking station/keyboard = laptop.
Why would you limit yourself to inferior pocessing power when you can have a laptop? You are talking about 2 pieces of gear to buy instead of just one.

If its touch capability you are talking about, there are touch laptops out there. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but there are controllers that integrate with the iphone/itouch/ipad, and to be honest, I see more S4s out there being used.
I'm saying that, generally, tablets do what most people need from a laptop. I.e. if you need intense processing power: desktop. If you need mobility: tablet. Therefor, laptop sales should decrease as people adapt to this new "mobile tech" oriented world. With fewer laptops in households, fewer DJs will start out using them, and more will wonder if their new Tab can run a DJ app.

A docking station does not equal a laptop. That's silly. If I build keyboardless two-way dock between an droid Tab and S4 that enables Traktor to run flawlessly on that Tab, that is obviously not a laptop.

Who would want to lug around a big clunky touchscreen laptop vs. a nice petite tablet if they both can do what you need?
Mikki Retana
03.07.2012
Originally Posted by dripstep
Apple has a hard enough time keeping the iPhone cool, and thats a whole lot simpler than a tablet. I cant see it happening either. Plus, you drop a laptop, it will probably be ok. Tablets have glass faces. Drop one of those, and the rest of your evening will be shot.
Ummm, no, that is completely backwards. The phone would be significantly harder to remove heat from than a tablet. The iPhone is literally less than half the size of an iPad while packing pretty similar hardware, less space = a harder time managing heat.

Why do you believe the iphone is simpler than an iPad? That idea is totally backwards. Smaller the device, the more complex the internals have to be.

And what makes you believe that dropping a laptop wouldnt damage it? I know if i dropped a macbook from 5 feet, its probably going to get damaged (i have seen it countless times; broken dvd drives, ribbon cables becoming unseated, cracked lcd, etc.).
Kiyoko Wellisch
02.07.2012
Originally Posted by dripstep
In 6-7 years, leds/lcds will be out-dated. DJs will look like blind dudes on stage with retinal display contact lenses, no screens at all.
Oh god. That would be so awesome.
Rolanda Clodfelder
02.07.2012
An atom processor vs. i7 what would you rather use?
An Atom processor is actually slower than iPads, for regular Traktor/vdj etc sure an I7 .. but honestly I'd prefer better optimization of software rather than yet more features. ... something that seemed to be forgotten about since we hit pentium4 levels - with IOS optimizing software for slower hardware is thankfully a trend again - and capable.

Traktor 3.3 player beautifully on a Celeron 900mhz and it had most regular features of 2.0 - no reason an iPad version couldn't handle at least that level of enhancements.

VDJ for example is dual stream 720p + A/V effects + audio mixing + multi monitor capable from the iPad, video is/was one of the most taxing things on any system. A dual core Pentium 4 system a few years back had trouble mixing more than 2 channels of 640x480 video with any kind of 3d effects or live camera now it can be done on a handheld device.

Algorithm's DJ (and Mixvibes Cross app) has pretty much all the features a "regular" DJ would need from a player ,certainly more than record box. .. if only a "proper" controller (or media player) could harness that juice instead of needing a laptop...things are getting there, slowly but surely.
Yong Aptekar
02.07.2012		In 6-7 years, leds/lcds will be out-dated. DJs will look like blind dudes on stage with retinal display contact lenses, no screens at all.
Yong Aptekar
02.07.2012		You are talking about a laptop. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are talking about at all.

Tablet+docking station/keyboard = laptop.
Why would you limit yourself to inferior pocessing power when you can have a laptop? You are talking about 2 pieces of gear to buy instead of just one.

If its touch capability you are talking about, there are touch laptops out there. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but there are controllers that integrate with the iphone/itouch/ipad, and to be honest, I see more S4s out there being used.
Angella Mosiniak
02.07.2012		The processor limitations are exactly why I mentioned performance enhancing docks/stands. I feel like off-loading some intensive tasks to a docking station with the appropriate cooling methods is the obvious solution untill we get past some of these issues.

As performance needs rise, niches for more durable high performance tablets will form in the business class, just like with laptops.

I'm not talking about this happening over-evening , but in six or seven years, maybe laptops will seem completely outdated.

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