The reason WHY A&H sounds warmer than Pioneer
The reason WHY A&H sounds warmer than Pioneer Posted on: 07.02.2011 by Homer Selgado IMHO I dont like the crossover points for the EQ on Pioneer mixers. But I didn't know why until now.I know each mixer manufacturer is known to have a slightly different "color" based on the individual components used, and how they are manufactured. But I really thought there was more too it than that. With a look at where different manufacturers set their frequency points for the channel 3 band EQ, a lot of very interesting things can be learned. Pioneer sets the low knob to everything 70hz and below. Then the high knob to everything 13000hz and above. Meaning the mid band knob has everything from 70hz to 13000hz! That leaves it with very little room for sonic manipulation of any music through EQing. Whereas an Allen & Heath runs the 3 band EQ in the Xone:42 like: Low: 420hz and down Mid: Center point at 1200hz High: 2700hz and up This gives you a VERY warm low band, as well as giving you MUCH greater manipulation ability of the high band. Allen & Heath's Xone:92 with its 4 band eq is run thus: Low: 100hz and down low-mid: center point at 250 hz high-mid: center point at 2500hz High: 10000hz and up ^Now THAT is a sexy set of frequencies. What this all means is, in a pioneer when you boost the lows, you don't boost ANY of the mids. So as a result the music becomes muddy, and lacks warmth. In order to compensate for this you would normally boost the mids a small amount with the lows, to retain the warmth. BUT Pioneer has to much high range on the mid (13khz and down!) so boosting the mids adds the warmth from the mid range just as equally as it adds the dry tinny highs, so in effect it cancels itself out, and instead of sounding warmer, it just sounds like you turned up the volume. So how do I know all this? Well I have played quite a bit at live shows on pioneer's and A&H's, but I don't own either of them. I own a DDM4000 for my practice setup, and it allows 100% customization of all frequency points in its 3 band channel EQ! WIN! So, I took a manual from a Pioneer DJM800, and plugged those frequencies into my DDM4000, and coming from someone who is VERY familiar with how Pioneers EQ feels (and from someone who thought his DDM4000 sounded "better" than a DJM800) it was very weird to have my DDM4000 feeling EXACTLY like the pioneer in terms of EQ. It was creepy. I then plugged in the A&H frequency point, and it was INSTANTLY clear why A&H mixers are considered "warmer" than pioneer. They all have a slightly different "color" .. or "tone" with the EQ knobs centered, this is definitely the case. But as soon as you put +1db on all three knobs evenly, that is where, based on the frequencies they are set at, the EQ's will really begin to change the "color" of the sound. Where those frequencies are set has a huge effect on this "coloring". And as no DJ plays an entire set with ought moving any of the EQ knobs from dead center, the "color" a certain mixers EQ's are going to add to a sound become apparent throughout a mix. Its that simple. I hope there is at least someone out there that has a constructive argument to this, because although I really feel this is the main contributer to the "color" a certain mixer has compared to another one (that is if all mixers were created equal in terms of noise isolation, and proper circuitry), I would love to hear why I could be mistaken somewhere along the way. Here I'm going to be listing different mixers, as well as my custom frequency setting for the channel EQ's. Check back as Ill be updating it. 3 Band EQ's: All DJM low: 70hz Evo4 low: 200hz X:42 low: 420hz X4D low: 120hz All Rane low: 300hz DDM low: 330hz My low: 180/200hz All DJM mid: 1000hz Evo4 mid: 1200hz X:42 mid: 1200hz X4D mid: 1400hz All Rane mid: 1200hz DDM mid: 1400hz my mid: 1200hz All DJM high: 13000hz Evo4 high: 6500hz X:42 high: 2700hz X4D high: 10000hz All Rane high: 4000hz DDM high: 4200hz my high: 5000hz 4 Band EQ's: X:92 low: 100hz X:92 low-mid: 250hz X:92 high-mid: 2500hz X:92 high: 10000hz To add, Mixers that have fully Adjustable frequency points for EQ: DDM4000 Ecler Evo 5 And Mixers I cant find info for: Ecler Nuo series Traktor default Serato Itch | |
| Homer Selgado 08.02.2011 | Exactly. To each their own. I just felt it was an interesting insight into an already accepted fact. And then I felt like sharing that with the community to see how they responded to it. People with adjustable EQ settings have been confirming what I found. And this thread has nothing to do with price, or even buying a mixer for that matter. This is purely a technical discussion on the difference in "tone" between different mixers. And the fact that the individual frequencies a certain mixers "tone" control are set too do have a significant effect on the overall "tone" of the music reproduced. That wasn't to say there are not other things going on. In fact in my original post I stated I didn't believe this was the only card at play, and I asked for input on what exactly, for specific reasons, what else may be affecting "tone" of a specific mixer. |
| Hipolito Scionti 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by Quenepas
This is definitely a horses for courses situation. I've had people say KRK monitors add too much colour etc. Seriously, these brands would die out if pros didn't like using them. I haven't commented on this thread because frankly, it's boring |
| Matthew Yanagisawa 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by exokinetic
Price is definitely an issue since some people may choose Pioneer for reliability and brand rather than "warm sounds" alone due the fact that not all club settings may have the correct speaker system/placement thus making "warmer" sound muddier. If you want real "warmth" just use vinyl. |
| Antonetta Wikel 08.02.2011 | One thing people haven't talked about is the input amplifier, which can definitely have a coloring effect on the audio. As for the Traktor EQ's the only thing I can find is cut amounts but no info on the center point and Q factor of each frequency band. |
| Lewis Stumpf 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by The Vly
Originally Posted by Tekki
I'd love to be able to set custom EQ points in Traktor, as it is one of the reasons I've been mixing in Ableton more and more. I took a dig at setting up some of the EQ's you mentioned in Ableton Live and comparing them. The contrast is stark really, it's amazing how much the Live EQ Eight sounds like the DJM's when set up to it's paramaters, and I can definitely hear a 42 sounding vibe going when I plug those numbers in as well. |
| Nydia Hammon 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by ANok?
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| Dorie Scelzo 08.02.2011 | Interesting. That's not the whole story, as even with the EQs at 0dB, the mixers sound different from each other (very subtly) and my 62 still sounds like a 62 if you turn the EQs off. So, I believe there's other stuff going on, but |
| Corey Tronchin 08.02.2011 | Interesting read for sure! Makes you wonder why there isn't an option in Traktor to set these levels for your custom mixer (5th option) and thus creating your own EQ levels. |
| Desiree Logie 08.02.2011 | The numbers exogenetic reported for Pioneer mixers are trash. To me, it looks like he took some numbers from the specifications without understanding what they mean. The numbers he reports do NOT refer to the crossover points. Of course, most of us who have DJed on a Pio mixer will realize that movements in the Low knob yield significant response also above 70Hz. And, for the record, my understanding is that A&H mixers sound "warmer" because, with all EQs in neutral position, they color the sound by taking away some high frequencies. |
| Homer Selgado 08.02.2011 | Original updated! |
| Homer Selgado 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by Tekki
The Rane 56, 57, and sixtyeight all use this: Low: 300hz and down mid:1200hz (dont know the Q ): ) high: 4000hz (very close to my Behringers stock setting interestingly enough) ..also a slightly less aggressive take on why the Xone:42 sound better tuned than the DJM series. DJM low: 70hz X:42 low: 420hz X4D low: 120hz R56 low: 300hz DDM low: 330hz My low: 180/200hz DJM mid: 1000hz X:42 mid: 1200hz X4D mid: 1400hz R56 mid: 1200hz DDM mid: 1400hz my mid: 1200hz DJM high: 13000hz X:42 high: 2700hz X4D high: 10000hz R56 high: 4000hz DDM high: 4200hz my high: 5000hz Will look into the Ecler Nuo's next! Thanks for all the feedback guys! |
| Homer Selgado 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by JamesT
I don't know where you heard this. If this statement was true then digital music production, and reproduction would simply not work as we know it today. Using a 3 band eq if you give -3db to the high pot and the mid pot, and then you use the channel gain pot to gain the whole signal 3db, you are exactly, 1:1 the same, as if you left the channel pot alone, and added 3db to the low pot, in terms of dynamic range, and amplifier headroom. The difference is when you leave your mixers EQ pots centered, then the frequencies they are set too (different for every mixer) do not effect the color of the sound. SO, in the example, when you cut the mid and high frequency, you are cutting signal that is above the low setting for you particular mixer, and because of the progressive nature of the mid bands eq, even if you equally reduce the mid and high band, it still adds color as compared to cutting those frequencies equally with the channel gain. AND in the example where we just boost the low, the only frequencies effected are those below the frequency set in that mixer, and if the mids and highs are left true flat, then the "color" of the mixer only presents itself in the low, and low-mid range. So it is not that you get a "cleaner" bass boost when you use subtraction instead of addition (in subtraction you are still gaining the channel slightly to maintain overall volume). You are using different parts of the EQ band specific to how your mixer manufacturer assigned the frequencies to those bands, so one might give you a "warmer" boost, and the other may be more "muddy". And thats not to say that for every single track that one way is going to be preferable. Both have their proper applications. And if you add, OR SUBTRACT to aggressively you will get negative results. Thats just a fact. |
| Julissa Serrone 08.02.2011 | This makes tone of sense. I used to have a Xone:42 and I would tell folks the best way I could describe the feel was that every slight move of the EQ you could hear such a precise change in sound it made playing tunes an awesome blend of sounds. I loved the way that thing sounded. My Audio 8 thru a Xone:42 was like hot sex. Yeah wondering the differences in the EQ's for Traktors the differences in the presets, and how much of a different they truly make in sound. Great post man. |
| Random X 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by exokinetic
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| Homer Selgado 07.02.2011 | ^ This! I so agree, I love my DDM4000 for its unlimited configurations. I have one preset for DnB, and and pretty different one for House. #ddm4000love |
| Antonetta Wikel 07.02.2011 | Ok, here's a twist on DJ mixer eq's. I've got the Tascam X9. It's got parametric EQ's with adjustable Q factors for each band. WHY don't more DJ mixers employ this? I feel it's a feature that's totally lacking in dj mixer choice. It's pretty great to be able to sweep the frequencies within each band and find exactly the areas you want to cut or boost(although I also subscribe to the subtractive EQing method so I seldom, if ever add). |
| Homer Selgado 07.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by The Vly
Good question! Ill look at that next. |
| Homer Selgado 07.02.2011 | The Xone:42's fixed frequency points are VERY close to the custom points I ended up setting in my DDM4000. Gives me very warm bass and midrange, and it also gives me extremely fine control over the high band. I can take JUST as little or JUST as much as I want to, its a nice thing to hear. The one thing I change is I set my bass knob at somewhere between 180-200hz and below. I'm still doing testing to see witch one I really find best. What this does, is maintains the "warmth" of the bass EQ knob (and since my mid knob is very much focused on the "low-mid", band I can use it lightly to boost warmth as well) and allows me to do a full bass KILL, with ought effecting the sonics going on in the rest of the track. If you go too high on the low knob, when you do a full bass kill, it cuts out the bottom of the midrange and REALLY changes the sound of whats going on. When you leave that part of the midrange there, it allows you to Full KILL the highs and mids of one track, and Full KILL the bass of another track, and basically remix any tune with another tunes baseline, and ONLY the baseline. I cant do that with a pioneer because the bass EQ knob on the pioneer is 70hz and down, and a LOT of the baseline is in between 70 and 180-200hz. Why do you believe almost every single adjustable "sub out" crossover known to man goes up to 200hz? |
| Nakisha Pasmore 07.02.2011 | Interesting to know! Is there any info on what Traktor's internal EQs are set at? |
| Carroll Guglielmetti 07.02.2011 | very interesting stuff..i've been leaning toward the xone 42 because of people's testaments about the eq. |
| Homer Selgado 07.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by Quenepas
As this has no relevance to the point of the thread, witch, if you were wondering, is to hold a constructive conversation on the specific "color" certain DJ mixers have, and more specifically WHY they sound the way they do. Based on facts, DJTT users experiences, and published technical information from the producers of said mixers. ....*sigh* ...Toevening I'm going to go over some Rane and Vestax manuals and plug their frequency points into my mixer and see what I find, will add to the original when I'm done. Cheers mates. |
| Matthew Yanagisawa 07.02.2011 | I would choose.... The cheapest! |
| Homer Selgado 07.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by JamesT
And the degree to which the EQ crossover points "color" the sound is the same going up or down.
Originally Posted by JamesT
It is DEFINITELY due to the fact that the EQ's are set to different frequencies. One is not better, and the other is not worse. They are DIFFERENT. And so they effect the sonic characteristics of music DIFFERENTLY. And your saying you would rather have less sonic manipulation, and less ability to "tune" the "tone" of anything going through your mixer in favor of the control surface looking a certain way and Pioneers effects? Because the effects bay on the DJM800 is the only thing putting it above the A&H, and the A&H has two fully rout-able fx send/return loops.... use any effect you can get your hands on, effect two channels separately, chain two effects on one channel... *shrug* To each their own. |
| Irving Odabashian 07.02.2011 | You should never really try and 'add' to an audio source through a mixers EQ anyway (especially one with fixed bands), EQ was designed to be subtractive and remove unwanted frequencies and considering you can never add to a audio source, you can only subtract from it or apply effects to it. I agree that Allen and Heath mixers do have better EQ's over the pioneer DJM800, but that is probably be to the fact that they design/build mixing consoles as well as DJ mixers. I would still choose to use a pioneer over an Allen & Heath mixer due to the layout and functionality, or maybe its just my personal hatred (perhaps a bit strong) towards Allen and Heath DJ mixers. |
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