The reason WHY A&H sounds warmer than Pioneer
The reason WHY A&H sounds warmer than Pioneer Posted on: 07.02.2011 by Homer Selgado IMHO I dont like the crossover points for the EQ on Pioneer mixers. But I didn't know why until now.I know each mixer manufacturer is known to have a slightly different "color" based on the individual components used, and how they are manufactured. But I really thought there was more too it than that. With a look at where different manufacturers set their frequency points for the channel 3 band EQ, a lot of very interesting things can be learned. Pioneer sets the low knob to everything 70hz and below. Then the high knob to everything 13000hz and above. Meaning the mid band knob has everything from 70hz to 13000hz! That leaves it with very little room for sonic manipulation of any music through EQing. Whereas an Allen & Heath runs the 3 band EQ in the Xone:42 like: Low: 420hz and down Mid: Center point at 1200hz High: 2700hz and up This gives you a VERY warm low band, as well as giving you MUCH greater manipulation ability of the high band. Allen & Heath's Xone:92 with its 4 band eq is run thus: Low: 100hz and down low-mid: center point at 250 hz high-mid: center point at 2500hz High: 10000hz and up ^Now THAT is a sexy set of frequencies. What this all means is, in a pioneer when you boost the lows, you don't boost ANY of the mids. So as a result the music becomes muddy, and lacks warmth. In order to compensate for this you would normally boost the mids a small amount with the lows, to retain the warmth. BUT Pioneer has to much high range on the mid (13khz and down!) so boosting the mids adds the warmth from the mid range just as equally as it adds the dry tinny highs, so in effect it cancels itself out, and instead of sounding warmer, it just sounds like you turned up the volume. So how do I know all this? Well I have played quite a bit at live shows on pioneer's and A&H's, but I don't own either of them. I own a DDM4000 for my practice setup, and it allows 100% customization of all frequency points in its 3 band channel EQ! WIN! So, I took a manual from a Pioneer DJM800, and plugged those frequencies into my DDM4000, and coming from someone who is VERY familiar with how Pioneers EQ feels (and from someone who thought his DDM4000 sounded "better" than a DJM800) it was very weird to have my DDM4000 feeling EXACTLY like the pioneer in terms of EQ. It was creepy. I then plugged in the A&H frequency point, and it was INSTANTLY clear why A&H mixers are considered "warmer" than pioneer. They all have a slightly different "color" .. or "tone" with the EQ knobs centered, this is definitely the case. But as soon as you put +1db on all three knobs evenly, that is where, based on the frequencies they are set at, the EQ's will really begin to change the "color" of the sound. Where those frequencies are set has a huge effect on this "coloring". And as no DJ plays an entire set with ought moving any of the EQ knobs from dead center, the "color" a certain mixers EQ's are going to add to a sound become apparent throughout a mix. Its that simple. I hope there is at least someone out there that has a constructive argument to this, because although I really feel this is the main contributer to the "color" a certain mixer has compared to another one (that is if all mixers were created equal in terms of noise isolation, and proper circuitry), I would love to hear why I could be mistaken somewhere along the way. Here I'm going to be listing different mixers, as well as my custom frequency setting for the channel EQ's. Check back as Ill be updating it. 3 Band EQ's: All DJM low: 70hz Evo4 low: 200hz X:42 low: 420hz X4D low: 120hz All Rane low: 300hz DDM low: 330hz My low: 180/200hz All DJM mid: 1000hz Evo4 mid: 1200hz X:42 mid: 1200hz X4D mid: 1400hz All Rane mid: 1200hz DDM mid: 1400hz my mid: 1200hz All DJM high: 13000hz Evo4 high: 6500hz X:42 high: 2700hz X4D high: 10000hz All Rane high: 4000hz DDM high: 4200hz my high: 5000hz 4 Band EQ's: X:92 low: 100hz X:92 low-mid: 250hz X:92 high-mid: 2500hz X:92 high: 10000hz To add, Mixers that have fully Adjustable frequency points for EQ: DDM4000 Ecler Evo 5 And Mixers I cant find info for: Ecler Nuo series Traktor default Serato Itch | |
| Judi Sissel 03.10.2012 |
Originally Posted by keithace
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| Cindie Brodskaya 03.10.2012 |
Originally Posted by itskindahot
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| Marguerite Salsedo 03.10.2012 | Ace thread. Really interesting information and I'd assume that the simulated EQs in traktor use the same bands as the mixers they're simulating (pretty sure this has already been said). Thanks
Originally Posted by djproben
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| Jerica Salava 03.10.2012 | you want warmth, I give you fire. Two 1200's, a UREI 1620 mixer and a Vestax DCR-1500 filter isolator (knob heaven): |
| Avelina Mehlberg 03.10.2012 | After purchasing a DDM4000, I wanted to set it up just like a Pioneer to understand how the installed rigs are general going to sound. This thread was very helpful, however, the specs noted (and updated) in the OP seemed a little off. To test this, I used the pioneer eq emulation tool for ableton found here: http://www.softcore.net.gr/projects.php And then balanced the DDM4000's settings against the pioneer emulation using the spectral analyser within ableton. Scientifically, I've made the two white noise waveforms match with the following settings (this works for both boost and cut frequency analysis): So my view of setting the DDM4000's crossover points to emulate the colouring/frequency shape of a Pioneer is: High: 4862Hz Mid: 994Hz Low: 476Hz Mid Q: 0.76 *PLEASE NOTE that this likeness is only present before the DDM4000 EQ knob "kills" the signal (i.e. only the same upwards of 8 o'clock on the dial.) I'd be very interested for someone independently to try the emulation that actually has access to a pioneer and report back? Enjoy! |
| Irwin Ney 11.05.2011 | I'm actually upping this old thread for it awesomess! I use this info a lot and most of my friends doesn't know about it too... They are just pionner's fanboys :P And I need to ask, where is the article about it? Who can write it? This info is so damn cool that can't be lost in a simple random thread |
| Danae Dumler 23.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
In ancient Rome, Cato the Elder used to end every speech no matter what the topic by saying "Carthage must be destroyed." I believe I'm going to start ending every post by saying "I need a DB4." |
| Kandy Ahdoot 23.02.2011 | i love xone and tbh would rather own a 92 than pioneer 800 anyday all the stuff i have bought from a&h has sounded great and never let me down |
| Dorie Scelzo 23.02.2011 | Actually, proben, Ableton can do everything you mentioned if you're clever enough with mapping. I was seriously considering using my VCM-600 and Ableton just as a mixer when I switched to Traktor and going the controller route |
| Danae Dumler 23.02.2011 | There was an article a year or two ago about internal vs. external mixing that covered a little of this ground. The article concluded that internal mixing could be better at least in terms of possibilities and flexibility but the problem is that we still don't have software that takes advantage of such possibilities. Traktor gives you a few EQ options but they are poorly implemented and even more poorly documented. None of them feature full kill EQs. This doesn't seem to be changing in Traktor 2. And I believe Traktor is better off than any other DJ software in this manner. What would be really great is much more flexible control over EQs, and perhaps even a 7 or 8 band EQ with crossfader options like the Pioneer DJM 2000 offers. Shouldn't be terribly hard to implement in software but it doesn't seem like a priority for programmers working on such things at this time. On another note, thanks to this thread I went looking for and found a used DDM4k for a really good price. I've been playing around with this feature a bit and the increments you can change the EQ settings in are awkward -- you really can't get to exactly 1200Hz for example. Not that it makes much difference but I'm wondering if I'm missing something on the adjustments? Overall this is a fun mixer to play with; it's just too bad the buttons and knobs feel so cheap and the effects are pretty lame. And to add insult to injury, Behringer designed their pots 180 degrees opposite every other pot I've seen, which means you can't just replace the knobs with nicer ones. Damn I still want a DB4.... I suppose if the Behringer grows on me though I might stick an innofader in it.... |
| Evie Baghdasarian 23.02.2011 | great article for the homepage. And one where people will stop bitching about it being traktor specific, or a sales pitch by the DJTT team. +1 |
| Irwin Ney 23.02.2011 | Thank you for this awesome information I've never really believeed about it... It makes me believe about keep with my internal mixing again... I hate the fact to use different EQ configs on every club that I go... What do you believe to make this a DJTT Article ? I really believe you should do it! |
| Dorie Scelzo 23.02.2011 | I've just been a huge fan of the 004xl since it came out |
| Homer Selgado 22.02.2011 | Totally, and I'm not dead set on anything yet, what particular models you looking at from Vestax? |
| Dorie Scelzo 22.02.2011 | Unless Behringer got even dumber, audio doesn't go through the faders. Exokinetic, I don't disagree with you. But, i'm probably going to end up with a Vestax instead...after i end up getting rid of my 62 (it's a great mixer but not what i want at the moment). |
| Stephnie Godbole 22.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
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| Homer Selgado 22.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
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| Dorie Scelzo 22.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by MuzicFreq
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| Margie Pavell 22.02.2011 | i was always under the impression equalizers just pull up and down from a center point based on what freq the knob is set to? you are making me believe that you are believeing that the eq knobs are crossover points...which they are not... so if you set your bass knob at 200k and a + or -24db slope, you will either gain or lose 24dbs per octive starting at the center point of 200k...depending on which way you turn the knob...so by this rational you will definitely hear a major difference between EQs because their center EQ frequencies are different... yes? no? please correct me if i am wrong... (i didnt come here to fight...just clear up my believening) |
| Stephnie Godbole 22.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by exokinetic
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| Homer Selgado 22.02.2011 | Ive had it for 2 years now, and I'm having a hard time deciding weather to get another one, or a new Nox606... |
| Stephan Denigris 22.02.2011 | super helpful man thanks |
| Stephnie Godbole 22.02.2011 | DDM4000 sounds sexier with each new find lol. I can emulate any mixer you say? sounds like an ultimate test unit as well for practicing |
| Elton Rackley 22.02.2011 | thanks OP! lots of cool info in this one. |
| Danae Dumler 10.02.2011 | Nice ... you might have talked me into buying a DDM4000. I have had my eye on the DB4 for a while but it's really so far out of my budget as to be dreaming. This might just be the perfect solution to tide me over until I win the lottery.... |
| Homer Selgado 10.02.2011 | No I got the solution for the recording. Traktors internal recorder has a gain adjuster in case the incoming signal isn't hitting peak. Instead of adding gain at traktor, I have to add gain to the tape(record) out on the back of my mixer. It has much less signal noise when the recording is silent (i.e. no music playing), nearly silent. To get that, I run my mixer in the center of its dynamic range, channel and master (basically both channel and master VU meters are hitting up to, but not above 0db) And then I have to add 10db to my mixer record out to get traktors recording (witch comes off an extra input of my audio 8) at the right level. Took a bit of experimentation, but I got it real nice now. |
| Danae Dumler 10.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by exokinetic
And thanks for these posts - this information has been really informative. I've always wondered why my Rane TTM56 sounded so much better than my Audio 8 on its own with internal mixing; this really helps clarify it. |
| Homer Selgado 09.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by diezdiazgiant
Thank you very much! |
| Rebbecca Fennell 09.02.2011 | this has to be one of of the few interesting things ive read on this site in the last couple months. |
| Homer Selgado 09.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by djproben
And my Traktor Bible should be here Friday this week, WOOT! Bummer, it appears the Evo 4 does not have the adjust-ability. Posted out of Evo 4 manual: Tones: BASS -30/+10dB (200Hz) MID -25/+10dB (200 & 6,5kHz) TREBLE -30/+10dB (6,5kHz) Not a bad set of frequencies really. Will update original. And the Behringer is a rather cool piece of kit. 95% of the control surface is midi mappable. It has two independent effects processors. But those two processors do ohhh so much more. I have it on good authority (you can believe me or not, i really don't care) that the same AD/DA converters used in the Pioneer were used for the Behringer as well. Optical faders and dials mean they respond the same way every-time, 10 times or 10 thousand. It has an pretty adjustable dual-band compressor for the master output if you should so desire. It has a third XLR mono "sub" out. I can set the crossover frequency on the sub out from 20hz-200hz, I can set weather the sub out matches the output of the master, or I can give it up to 40db of cut in .5db increments. I can Set the entire main out buss to full frequency, so that the crossover point is ignored to all outputs besides the "sub-out". Or I can set it to crossover, so that only "sub-out" receives the signal below my crossover point and the "full-range" outputs only put out signal above this crossover. I can also assign a subsonic frequency filter to any of the four channels, from 20hz up to 200hz. This is, for instance, if you had low frequency rumble for a turntable, or if the sub bins in your system were not tuned for below 30hz, and below that things get really messed up, so you can cut that very accurately to get the response you need from the speakers if the rack doesn't have that ability, or you don't have access to it. I am a budget mobile DJ, so these three features are a GOD SEND. I already talked of the fully adjustable parametric EQ. I honestly don't know how they packed ALL of these awesome features into a mixer at this price. I have had it for 3 years, and I have a friend who lives with me that also DJ's, so we both use it, and take it to shows. Mainly because in the DnB underground around here I'm lucky to show up to a show with a 100% working DJ mixer, let alone something I would like to play on. All I can say is that its way more of a beast than it should be for its price. I spilled a whole glass of coke in the damn thing! I know how to open it up as I have before, so I CAREFULLY wiped EVERYTHING down with alcohol, and luckily it didn't get into any of the fader guides. I have my gripes, like no fx send/return loop, i guess they figured their effects were enough ): . I notice a higher noise floor on the booth, record, and cue outputs than on the master out, witch is HIGHLY discreet. I really don't know why this is, probably a corner cut so save cost. I record my sets Externally back through the Audio 8 off the record out, and I have to boost my record out by 10db (also adjustable) to get Traktors recorder to be set a 0 and get perfect recording levels. As soon as I boost traktors record levels the introduced noise at no-volume is horrendous. I made a WHOLE bunch of recordings at various levels on my mixer and in traktor, and found that at signal silence, the inherent noise in the system was almost nonexistent with traktor flat, and my mixers record out boosted to proper recording levels in traktor. Crossfader is fully serviceable and can be replaced with many different model of after market crossfaders, although I don't even use a crossfader, so mine is almost new, lol. The headphone jack placement is kind meh too... but everything else gets me over that, heh. And now this post turned into a huge gloat about my mixer ): bah. |
| Danae Dumler 09.02.2011 | There is info in the Traktor bible about how much sound is cut at the different settings but not the frequencies. It's noticeably different in the different settings -- I'm playing around with it now and I like the Nuo setting best at the moment. None of the settings are full kill though which is strange. I wonder if this is something that will be updated some time in the software -- being able to set the EQs more precisely would be an amazing feature. This thread has me seriously considering the Behringer mixer; I had no idea it had that feature. edit --> didn't realize it was a feature of the Evos either -- is that true for the Evo 4 or just the 5? |
| Homer Selgado 09.02.2011 | From everything I have read from users on the NI community
s and here, no, Traktor S4 doesn't have the ability to use the custom EQ bands found in Traktor Pro/ Scratch Pro. ): bummer. And I have had a hard time tracking down the specifics on the default traktor internal EQ, witch is what the S4 uses. |
| Lang Abriel 08.02.2011 | Can you set eqs to xone on the s4 or only filters? |
| Homer Selgado 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by djivobutnot
I just really wanted to "peel back the layers of the onion" so to speak on that concept. Was it really just the fact that there are different components in the Pioneer vs. the A&H and others, and that those components are assembled with a different degree of specialization and quality control. Or was there something more to it than that. And what I found, was the EQ frequencies and bandwidths had a lot to do with that tonal difference. And so I wanted to hear the communities response to my findings. And I must say I am pleased with the results. A lot of good perspectives and information. |
| Jann Genson 08.02.2011 | Nice tread! But: everything in the audio signal path will colorize it. I mean everything. Even an RCA cable. Some people can hear it, some people can' t. There is one very important part too: most of the folks out there can do a blind test and differentiate Pioneer and Allen & Heath sound, and some of them will like Pio' s more, some will like A&H. This is natural - we all hear differently! Now a pure speculation: DJ who usually plays mostly electronic music will feel Pioneer mixers more like home, looking for that flat, sterile, and slightly distorted at hi-end sound coming from it. On the other hand we have a DJ who plays music coming from real instruments, with vocals,and with real, not over-maximized dynamics - that DJ will naturally choose the sound of Allen & Heath, cause it gives the right perception of natural warmth, and really accurate sound stage. End of speculation! Now, don' t get me wrong, I am not the audio purist I want to be, but all the DJ mixers sounds differently one from another, but usually we are not in the right conditions to hear all these differences. |
| Homer Selgado 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by JamesT
How can you tell me that if a signal is made to be louder (no matter where in the frequency spectrum) that nothing has been added to it. Wattage has been added to it. Period. And by your example, subrtraction still does not work any differently than addition. As you roll the EQ down you do not DELETE frequencies, you merely make them quieter. Witch in turn CHANGES the color of the sound. Going up with EQ is an ADDATIVE change. Going down with EQ is a SUBTRACTIVE change. Doing one, or the other, will have a different audible response when used to tune musical "tone". And that is not to say that one is MORE suited for tonal adjustment. You have to be judicious with BOTH. Subtracting too much signal is going to sound terrible just as, conversely, adding to much to a signal is going to sound terrible. With one you are allowing signal noise to interfere because of a poor signal-to-noise ratio. And with the other you risk clipping the signal. |
| Homer Selgado 08.02.2011 | I didn't say you would get the same sound response on both. I said that the option for witch would yield the most pleasing response would depend on the music it was being applied to.' They both obviously color the music differently, and I described why, but thats not to say one is inherently better than the other. |
| Irving Odabashian 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by exokinetic
How is this not true? If I have a fully mixed and mastered track (audio source) running into my DJ mixer, I cannot add to the sound of that track by turning up a certain EQ band. Yes it will make that band of EQ louder and colour the sound, but that is far from adding to an audio source. I can however add effects to it and sonically change the sound, but that is a sonic change, not a dynamic or EQ based change. Also, the example you gave is not true. If you remove -3Db from the high and high mid, then turn the gain up +3Db, you will get not the same overall sound/response if you add +3Db to the bass EQ. |
| Homer Selgado 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by MaxOne
There was also no need to mock my thread. If it doesn't speak to you, don't post in it, that simple. Disrespecting my opinions by merely mocking the intent of the thread (which had nothing to do with how much mixers cost, or even purchasing mixers at all) was unnecessary. Although that certainly doesn't make me being an ass about it necessary |
| Hipolito Scionti 08.02.2011 |
Originally Posted by exokinetic
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