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What's missing from NI controllers?

Home :: Reviews of DJ equipment :: What's missing from NI controllers?Reply

What's missing from NI controllers? Posted on: 18.06.2012 by Angella Mosiniak What are some of the obvious hardware flaws in the S4, Maschine, X1, F1? If you could design modular controllers like the CMD line, what would they feature and how would they be different from what is already on the market? I'm starting my own controler company and want your input on where NI went wrong, as well as, where the market is heading. Thanks, Vincent
Yong Aptekar 02.07.2012	Apple has a hard enough time keeping the iPhone cool, and thats a whole lot simpler than a tablet. I cant see it happening either. Plus, you drop a laptop, it will probably be ok. Tablets have glass faces. Drop one of those, and the rest of your evening will be shot.
Kiyoko Wellisch 02.07.2012	I don't believe tablets will ever be great at cooling themselves. No one is going to want to put a noisy fan in a tablet and I don't want to rely on passive cooling for a performance machine.
Yong Aptekar 02.07.2012	Look at the processors in tablets compared to laptops. The shitty thing about tablets is heat. The processor runs hot, and it is tricky to keep the heat down. Not in a laptop though, more room = more cooling. An atom processor vs. i7 what would you rather use? Until the manufacturers can figure out a way of cooling a tablet enough to run a bigger processor, tablets will not replace laptops. Mind you, I am all for tablets over laptops, I grew up watching Star Trek, and a lot of the toys they had, exist now.
Chasidy Heckenbach 30.06.2012	Originally Posted by Phi In my opinion, I don't believe "laptops" will need to exist for very much longer. What we will have are tablets that plug into hardware like keyboard-stands, or sophisticated docks that boost performance. i guess a tablet is just a laptop with a touch screen and without a keyboard pretty much - and a keyboard isn't needed for performing. so you could be right. And I was actually talking about using an easily upgrade/replaceable solid state memory like SD cards. Undoubtedly if you want durability you can't have all the moving parts of a typical HD. ah ok - then agreed on sd cards. they can hold enough for a performance. i worked in storage development/test for many years and know how much a regular hdd isn't suited to a dj environment. i'd much rather have a few backup sd cards in case i had problems with my main one. small+cheap+hold plenty+are fast enough for the job.
Angella Mosiniak 30.06.2012	In my opinion, I don't believe "laptops" will need to exist for very much longer. What we will have are tablets that plug into hardware like keyboard-stands, or sophisticated docks that boost performance. And I was actually talking about using an easily upgrade/replaceable solid state memory like SD cards. Undoubtedly if you want durability you can't have all the moving parts of a typical HD.
Chasidy Heckenbach 01.07.2012	Originally Posted by Phi I believe most people will move to tablets in a few years. What will benefit tablets are controllers that feature SSD storage (for your collection) and internalized soundcards. i believe a lot of dj's will be using tablets more and more but i don't see it being instead of a laptop but as a secondary screen and input device. there again if tablets are as powerful as laptops then maybe. for actual performing you probably don't need a keyboard but you'd still need the tablet screen propped up the exact same way a laptop screen is if u were using it as the bains of your system - and then it's not half as useful as a touch screen input device. Originally Posted by MrPopinjay Also I don't see why would ever want to have a SSD drive for tracks. You'd gain nothing from the speed and lose so much space in comparison to a comparatively priced HDD. less moving parts to go wrong i guess - but i'd rather have the ssd in my laptop than a controller attached to a tablet. a simple/cheap SD card will probably hold plenty for a performance, absolutely no need for anything like an SSD. as for Phi not wanting to tell us of his specific ideas.... personally i believe that's wise and in any case it's up to him i like the idea of pressure sensitive pots and i'd like all controls to have rgb feedback. arcade buttons are nice but they need to be fairly big to be good and more people would be turned off by the look than would like them probably. as part of a modular system having one with arcade buttons like livid have done, then that ofc would give people the option to add arcade buttons to their setup if they want to. i love my midifighter classic but wouldnt want arcade buttons on all my other controllers. being able to choose your overall setup with components from systems like behringers CMD or the livid range is def the way forward...
Kellie Myrum 28.06.2012	Originally Posted by ksandvik Oh, cool, I will try this toevening as I really miss a way to control the key pitch from S4. You can map key to your S4 shift+filter knobs. >Filter - M1=0 >Key - M1=1 This way while shift is on hold, modifier block function for filter and give control to key adjustment on that same knob.
Celine Surico 28.06.2012	Originally Posted by Phi Use a modifier as a second shift page, no reconstruction necessary Oh, cool, I will try this toevening as I really miss a way to control the key pitch from S4.
Angella Mosiniak 28.06.2012	Originally Posted by ksandvik Yes but then the default mappings are out and you need to painfully reconstruct the whole set again. Use a modifier as a second shift page, no reconstruction necessary
Celine Surico 28.06.2012	Originally Posted by Phi I don't have an S4/S2, but can't you just change the native mapping like you can on a kontrol X1? Yes but then the default mappings are out and you need to painfully reconstruct the whole set again.
Kiyoko Wellisch 28.06.2012	I disagree. Tablets are less suited to DJ work as they are designed to be held, rather than supporting themselves in an upright and readable position. Also, people seem to desire powerful machines for DJing, it's going to be some time before a tablet cuts it, by the time they that powerful I believe they will feature enough storage for tracks. Also I don't see why would ever want to have a SSD drive for tracks. You'd gain nothing from the speed and lose so much space in comparison to a comparatively priced HDD. And why have it built into your controller rather than as a separate unit? It will drive up the cost of the controller like crazy and when either the storage or the controller breaks, or you wish to upgrade you have to replace them both. The only advantage is that you save one usb port... Hubs are not that expensive.
Angella Mosiniak 28.06.2012	Originally Posted by ksandvik I've sent emails to NI support asking them to map the key knob to a controller so I could change the key via S4 (or S2), should be easy thanks to the Shift-button that magically maps something unused to something else. But no luck with 2.5. I don't have an S4/S2, but can't you just change the native mapping like you can on a kontrol X1?
Celine Surico 28.06.2012	I've sent emails to NI support asking them to map the key knob to a controller so I could change the key via S4 (or S2), should be easy thanks to the Shift-button that magically maps something unused to something else. But no luck with 2.5.
Angella Mosiniak 28.06.2012	Originally Posted by MrPopinjay 4 actually. X1, F1, S2, S4. The X1 would do tha job of controlling the other two FX banks and since you'll be using the controllers with a laptop it seems silly to add an expensive secondary screen. I believe most people will move to tablets in a few years. What will benefit tablets are controllers that feature SSD storage (for your collection) and internalized soundcards.
Kiyoko Wellisch 28.06.2012	4 actually. X1, F1, S2, S4. The X1 would do tha job of controlling the other two FX banks and since you'll be using the controllers with a laptop it seems silly to add an expensive secondary screen.
Daniell Kosharek 28.06.2012	Since NI has 3 controllers for Traktor use (kontrol, s4 and s2), it could have some modular things to connect with the current gear. Some little screens showing the songs, some controllers that attach to current mixer (s4 and s2) to control FX unit 3 and 4...
Diogo Dj Dragão 28.06.2012	I'm not saying that patents or NDAs are completely worthless, I'm just saying that it's a little early to be worrying about them. It's NEVER too early to worry about an NDA. And it requires almost zero effort to draft one and begin using it. So implying that putting an NDA in place takes time or effort is pretty dramatic. Right now, you don't know if it is, so why file a patent for something that nobody may even care about? If you're shopping your IP to another company, you need to know beforehand how valuable it is and whether or not you have something on your hands that is patent-able. However, nobody is sure how valuable that patent really is. But if you knew anything about this case specifically, you'd know that having that patent in place denied a major competitor from bringing a similar product to market (a competitor who didn't bother to research their product before announcing it). So that other company paid for the development and marketing of a product that they can't bring to market. Talk about a fatal mistake for a start-up - going in uninformed and unprotected COSTS MONEY. This is why people troll patents. You NEVER KNOW when they will become valuable. However some companies will refuse to sign it, as it makes them open to potential lawsuits... I've never gone looking for VC (which is the context of your linked article), but in the case of Phi searching for a hardware partner your advice is bad. Here's why. Phi can build a business case and marketing plan for his protected concept WITHOUT revealing the details of that concept. So he can seek VC without needing an NDA and keep his IP protected. But this isn't what we're talking about here. We're talking about shopping a hardware partner. If Phi is looking for someone to build his product and bring it to market, that entity will need to know lower level details about the product. And some of Phi's ideas are unique enough (as far as I know) that I can justify putting an NDA in place. Again, in this industry NDAs are commonplace. They are even commonly required for people like beta testers and product reviewers. But for a small company, to file a patent for an unproven technology is a waste of time, in my opinion. There are lots of people who spent a good part of their lives trying to fight for their IP being used by another party. That time and money might not have been spent if those people had properly protected themselves.
Genevie Lio 28.06.2012	There is no like button so.... I LIKE YOUR COMENT!
Kiyoko Wellisch 28.06.2012	Or maybe make them square?
Genevie Lio 28.06.2012	Originally Posted by MrPopinjay They made your gear look like toys. I believe it'd put more people off than it would attract. Yes but arcade buttons is just the botton sistem, they could build the outer ring in aluminium or in transparent plastic, and then the botton in brushed aluminium or ruberized, it would look way better but would keep the performance, (check the Allen & Heath Xone 42 DJ Mixer, USB Audio Interface), it's not only the look what we like of arcade buttons it's also the performance and the clicking feel that they have!
Randa Barczykowski 28.06.2012	Nemonic, I'm not saying that patents or NDAs are completely worthless, I'm just saying that it's a little early to be worrying about them. You need to patent something that's valuable. Right now, you don't know if it is, so why file a patent for something that nobody may even care about? Phi's time and energy would be better spent in front of customers, getting their feedback and tuning the product until it something that is really desirable. If your idea is really worth stealing, it will take some time before your competitors are switched onto it anyway. Another example would be the Behringer iAxe. This is a perfect example. So for Behringer to apply for this makes sense, they have the money and channels to do so quickly. I'm sure they apply for dozens of patents every year, just add it to the list. However, nobody is sure how valuable that patent really is. Maybe 2 years down the line, the market realises that using an iPad as a guitar isn't much fun, nobody's going to try it again, and your patent is essentially worthless. This is OK for Behringer, they have an R&D budget to cover such risks. But it would be fatal to a startup. I agree that it may be worth preparing an NDA, if you plan to approach companies with your idea. As you said, it is a GOOD IDEA and relatively easy to prepare. However some companies will refuse to sign it, as it makes them open to potential lawsuits. Perhaps they are working on a similar technology already, or have already heard similar pitches from other entrepreneurs, and would prefer to avoid the whole mess. It just creates conflict from the beginnning, particularly from an investors point of view. Please refer to the following article: http://www.venturestab.com/2011/02/w...-to-sign-ndas/ A patent however, is a different ballgame. As the value of your "novel idea" has not even be tested in the real world (I'm assuming your end goal here is to create value / money, not just patent things), it may need to be tweaked (perhaps dramatically) later on to make a useful technology. This could make your patent application less relevant and harder to enforce. Of course if a larger company were to acquire a smaller one, then they would want patent protection on the IP they are acquiring, indeed it would be a key part of the deal. But for a small company, to file a patent for an unproven technology is a waste of time, in my opinion. A little bit of caution can be extremely effective in protecting your ideas. Absolutely. An NDA is reasonable, but a patent at such an early stage is overkill.
Diogo Dj Dragão 28.06.2012	darasan, you're giving shitty advice. This is not strictly true. Patents are only valuable if you have the finances and resources to enforce them. While that's technically true, it's also true that IP changes hands all the time, and you NEVER know who is going to end up owning a patent. While a small entity might not have the resources to fight it, the larger company that buys them probably does. And if there's money to be made from both the IP and a lawsuit, it changes things a great deal. Look at Gemini or Behringer for example. They frequently release products that are rip offs of other manufacturers products (eg the Gemini CDJ-700 or Behringer DJX-700). What you're referring to here is a design patent. That's one kind of patent, and not necessarily the one Phi would be getting. To be granted a design patent in the first place, it must be novel. So they're not granted to (for instance) Pioneer every time they release a mixer. EVERY MIXER BY EVERY COMPANY WILL HAVE VERY SIMILAR FEATURES. Not novel - no design patent. An example of enforceable design patents would be the Alesis I/O Dock. They have several design patents on that product, and that's possible because when they were applied for there wasn't anything in the market that was similar to it. Another example would be the Behringer iAxe. NDA's are similarly pointless. No, they aren't. Wrong again. I get your point - he's a little guy and companies are big. If you want to go on a tirade about Robert Kerns or Ric Richardson I'm sure it's would be entertaining, but the law is the law. And just like having a patent application in for unique IP, having an NDA in place is a GOOD IDEA if you're shopping your concepts to another party. And contrary to what you said, signing NDAs is a common and accepted part of working in Product Development. P.S. I'm speaking from experience. ;-) Not very good experience. A little bit of caution can be extremely effective in protecting your ideas.
Freida Leash 27.06.2012	a line out for monitor
Randa Barczykowski 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by Phi Also people can't legally copy my designs if I hold patents on them. This is not strictly true. Patents are only valuable if you have the finances and resources to enforce them. For example, let's say you release a product, and patent an aspect of it's design. Then some large international company copies your design in their next product. What are you going to do about it? To start a patent lawsuit against them will take significant time and money, and probably put a young, struggling company like yours out of business. Not to mention the time and money it requires to get a patent in the first place. Patent lawsuits like these are typically best left to the likes of Apple and Google, who have enough money to fight them! Look at Gemini or Behringer for example. They frequently release products that are rip offs of other manufacturers products (eg the Gemini CDJ-700 or Behringer DJX-700). But Pioneer probably figure that it's best to focus on releasing fresh, innovative products rather than wasting time squabbling with cheap knock-off companies. And Behringer's brand has been severely tarnished as a result of their "copycat" strategy. NDA's are similarly pointless. If you require people to sign an NDA just to hear your ideas, most people won't bother. These community s are littered with ideas (with sketches / diagrams), which people can see openly, for FREE. The point is that is all they are...ideas. I want to explain this philosophy to you so that you don't get bogged down in IP protection nonsense, before your company is even off the ground. Just focus on making a good product, getting into the marketplace, and making good sales. The rest will follow. P.S. I'm speaking from experience. ;-)
Kellie Myrum 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by Phi Anyone else down for magic knobs that change color and parameters via pressure? +1 It could be like adjusting dry/wet and FX amount with push and twist that same pot and color tell's ya where position of your virtual knob is with out of looking in to screen? Imagine to set a modifier to this veliocity CC and by amount of pushing it down it changes value so you can control what ever you like mapped to other CC with this mod.con.
Angella Mosiniak 27.06.2012	@ darasan I appreciate your input, however, I have been personally advised by Berhinger's DJ product manager, Mark Settle (owner operator of DJworx.com), and an administrative partner of BMT to NOT talk about my designs without a legal NDA in place. These people had nothing to gain by me keeping secrets so I believe that they were telling me the truth. I am currently in the process of joining a business incubator at my university to help get my company off the ground. Also people can't legally copy my designs if I hold patents on them.
Angella Mosiniak 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by psyEDk what i'd really like is pressure sensitive knobs and faders. a second layer added to already standard control. imagine tweaking a knob that can also manipulate a secondary value depending on how tightly you 'squeeze' it? or faders that send accelerometor data, allowing you to tweak secondary effects dependant on how quickly the fader is moving - rather than where it's moving to/from. this would add a lot more personal style to your average mix, and i'm sure you can imagine it would allow for VERY expressive effects tweaking Really? I had designed pressure sensitive knobs that also did something else that was very cool but I thought most people wouldn't dig it so I haven't incorporated that one yet. Hmmmm Anyone else down for magic knobs that change color and parameters via pressure?
Jona Slon 27.06.2012	For modular controllers I believe a soundcard isn't necessary. However if you are making a controller that will be an all in one unit you should include a soundcard definitely.
Junita Valmonte 27.06.2012	Soudcard, USB, Booth (S4), build quality, real jog wheels, no more plastic chassis, rgb buttons like VCI-380, better pitch faders and a better pricepoint (currently the S4 is a rippoff).
Randa Barczykowski 27.06.2012	Originally Posted by Phi No, I'm researching the viability of my designs without allowing the competition to know what they are yet. When in this industry you have to play your cards close to your chest for your own protection. Phi, let me give you some friendly business advice. 1. Your ideas are worth nothing. Zero. It's all about what you do with them, i.e. the execution of your ideas. 2. Even if your ideas are really innovative and clever, such a good product idea will instantly be copied by your larger competitors, if they believe it's good enough. And then they will crush you on production costs, branding, marketing, and distribution. 3. MIDI controllers are not complex devices. That's why there are many smaller enterprises are also making them, e.g. DJ Tech Tools, Livid Instruments, FaderFox, 60 Works et al. Join the club. I don't know how different your controllers will be, but they need to be radically different to what these companies are making, and not so easy to copy. 4. Don't be afraid to share your ideas. If you cannot get feedback from users right now, you have absolutely no way of knowing if people will actually give you cash for your product. As for other manufacturers stealing your ideas...trust me, NI is not going to base it's product strategy on a thread in a DJTT community . They have a staff of over 300 people, and they are not stupid. Whatever your idea is, they have probably already thought of it, and knocked up a prototype in a lab somewhere. It's up to you to believe in it and pursue it, to take the risk that NI won't take. 5. Read some books and articles on "lean startup" methodology, by Steve Blank, Eric Ries etc. They will explain my points above in greater detail. I don't mean to dissuade you, I wish you all the best. But please keep these points in mind. You should not worry about what your competitors are doing now...you need to make a bet on the future and build products for that future. Good luck!
Estella Waber 27.06.2012	what i'd really like is pressure sensitive knobs and faders. a second layer added to already standard control. imagine tweaking a knob that can also manipulate a secondary value depending on how tightly you 'squeeze' it? or faders that send accelerometor data, allowing you to tweak secondary effects dependant on how quickly the fader is moving - rather than where it's moving to/from. this would add a lot more personal style to your average mix, and i'm sure you can imagine it would allow for VERY expressive effects tweaking
Kiyoko Wellisch 24.06.2012	Originally Posted by faderswagger Not sure why they, nor any other major gear company has gotten into arcade buttons. They made your gear look like toys. I believe it'd put more people off than it would attract.
Genevie Lio 21.06.2012	I would like to see something like the reloop contour IE but with the traktor S4 design, add the browsing capabilities and the loop record functionality on top of the S4 deck!! I know that there is the X1 but it just doesn't look as intuitive as the reloop, It would be nice since lot of people have great mixers, pioneer, alan&heath, rane... and would like to have the futures of the traktor S4 but dont what to have that extra "mixer", just wanting to have the S4 with their mixer! I would buy that! and guess that all the people that bought the reloop, would have bought the (lets say mono deck s4) if it was on the market! imagine controlling 4 decks with the monodeck S4 that would be great! Ps: don't get me wrong with the X1, its a great controller for CDJ and turntablist, because they have fast acces and control to fx and looping, but for an stand alone controller is how we say in spain, it's to spartan (wich means that is too simple). Hope this gets read by NI I'm an industrial designer if you want to hire me!! (of topic, some other ideas runing in my head are, wireless controllers to help the dj make more a performance than staying behind the table ex: midifighter 3D wireless!! with battery and shit! and i believe controllers with faders should come with replaceble faders!!(not talking about crosfader) i have broken 3 faders of my vms 4 in one year (caugh bullshit dumbass controller) akiyama does this with its mixers, so if you break a fader, you can replace it eassily AND FAST!!!! last time i sent my vms 4 to repair took 1 month to get it fixed!! (its the heart of my dj set so i had to be 1 month without working!). and yes I also believe all the controllers and mixers and cdj and turntables should have ARCADE BUTTONS!!! aren't there any litle sized arcade buttons?? that would be cool too!! The CrowdBoy and the Magic Kandy Project
Natalia Bucko 21.06.2012	Originally Posted by Le Goat What's missing from NI controllers? Arcade buttons Not sure why they, nor any other major gear company has gotten into arcade buttons. For like three years all I've ever wanted is a controller with a platter, 14bit pitch fader, and 16 arcade buttons, and nobody's ever made it.
Catharine Okamura 21.06.2012	What's missing from NI controllers? Arcade buttons
Kellie Myrum 21.06.2012	It seem like nice mapping dude. Would be nice to see it in action. I was inspired bu rmx cut/add feature and started something similar for my bcd3000 (super knob beta) about month ago and since there wasn't any feedback at all I never actually finished it. No one at DJTT use this oldtimer I guess... http://maps.djranking s.com/mappings/270 I've set one modifier per knob that toggle two values from middle position to both sides so this way I can independently map both sides of knob for different controls like I'm using super knob. This is one more thing that it would be nice to see in future, controllers with super knob/faders for more creativity mappings.
Jonathan Chiuchiolo 21.06.2012	yeah it just changes the message's from absolute to relative, the encoders remain endless, but because there is a led ring you always know the absolute position of the midi. I so far have these effects mapped, they aren't all the same but they are inspired by the RMX style, I'm waiting on a pitch delay that Deun - Deun is making right now RMX-1000 scene build up white noise/echo white noise/delay ping pong delay echo pink noise/echo pink noise/echo break down hp filter/echo out lp filter/echo out bit crush/echo out echo out/pitch ramp roll/filter roll/crush isolator frequency lfo gate frequency lfo pan hi/low gate hi/low gate with roll stutter when sound is gated release brake backspin echo EFX-1000 feedback echo feedback pitch echo echo delay filter TRANSPORT (2 decks) buttons play_pause & match bpm sync cue_stop hot cue 1 loop load shift knobs jog wheel filter + echo out if shift is pressed loop size loop move hi isolator (adjustable frequency) mid isolator low isolator (adjustable frequency) gain pitch fine pitch coarse browser scroll VDJ Rules! all the leds are set to blink at different speeds, as they don't work properly when they are set to on/off, but I have contacted novation about this to see if there is a better way. /off topic lol
Natalia Bucko 21.06.2012	Originally Posted by synthet1c The encoders can be normal 0-127 absolute midi or endless encoders. wait, fuckthewhat? Like there's a physical switch that changes them from standard pots to endless encoders?? Or does it just switch from relative midi liek a jogwheel, to absolute midi?
Kellie Myrum 21.06.2012	Yeah, I was believeing to get it or not since ever. It's much functionality for low price package but sincerely I don't like the looks of unit and there is leak of faders that I use the most of time. I believe that K2 is right choice for now. Off topic: Originally Posted by synthet1c I have it mapped for transport, effects of the rmx-1000 Have you mapped Isolate FX with cut/add feature as along with scene and release FX?
Jonathan Chiuchiolo 21.06.2012	@stewe & patch get a novation nocturn, It's the coolest controller I have, 8 led ring encoders 8 buttons and a crossfader, as many pages as you like with quick page selection, it's high quality plastic like the mpd series, and feels solid. The encoders can be normal 0-127 absolute midi or endless encoders. the led rings can be mapped to software and the buttons respond to software but are overridden by the hardware. finally while the layout of the encoders looks bad, it is very ergonomic to use. I have it mapped for transport, effects of the rmx-1000, effects of the efx-1000, beatmasher and sampler

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What's missing from NI controllers?