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A disconnect I'm noticing in the culture

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A disconnect I'm noticing in the culture Posted on: 30.12.2012 by Tatiana Verdeja I've been noticing something more and more with gear lately on places like these community s: What I've noticed a lot is a circlejerk built around things like cheap all-in-one controllers (S2/S4/mixtrack) that are popular with newer/less established DJs who don't have much real world experience. There are definitely a lot of newer DJs, and bedroom DJs or DJs who aren't very established, skewing the general culture by talking a lot, but not knowing what they're talking about. This works because of the anonymity. Obviously if we were talking to these people in person we'd know not to take them seriously, because we could see how unestablished they are. There's not as much discussion about high-end gear as there should be in order to encourage it's use to the newbies. Anyone else noticed something similar?
Janyce Henningson 01.01.2013	Originally Posted by Stewe Haha love it
Ervin Calvery 31.12.2012	Originally Posted by dripstep Being as it is Jan 31, Are you sure? Happy new year to you too, though!
Kellie Myrum 31.12.2012
Leeanna Ayla 31.12.2012	Originally Posted by smittten and that's why we'll never work as a couple Is that it? We're finally breaking up? That's good, because your nasally snoring was driving me crazy!!!
Yong Aptekar 31.12.2012	Being as it is Jan 31, can we please nominate this as the most unhelpful thread on DJTT? there are so many points being thrown around here without any forward momentum. What I have taken away from this: we are all native instuments fanboys who have no interest on playing on better gear because we keep telling the new guys to buy cheap gear, so this doesnt push numark, pio, NI, etc. to develop better gear. The new guys on this community have ruined all of DJing and the digital world. But this includes you Whisky, because you are still less than a month old on this community unless you can show otherwise. HAPPY NEW YEAR
Ok Moroski 31.12.2012	...so basically you're just angry that someone recommended that you buy an s4? There's a certain amount of responsibility on the part of the question-asker to provide relevant information. If you ask a very vague/generic question, you're going to get a vague/generic answer. The S4 isn't the best controller out there; but when it originally came out it was damn close. Even now it's still a solid value for the money. I bought one, used it for a while, then sold it and moved to a DVS setup. I ended up losing a net of about $75 overall (considering the free scratch upgrade promo with the S4 when I bought it plus the Guitar Center sale) in exchange for using the S4 for the better part of a year. If the newbies are smart about purchasing their gear , they can do the same... I don't believe the S4 is necessarily the best option out there anymore, but it's still a solid and easy starting point for a newbie. It's not like we're recommending that everyone grab an X-Session Pro. Every piece of DJ gear has compromises. The Behringer DDM4000 has a ton of features for its price point, but its construction and sound quality are questionable. The DJM-2000 has good sound quality and solid effects, but costs 6 times as much as the DDM. You seem to be offended that the S4 is being recommended; what controller would you recommend instead in the same relative budget? Nothing is perfect. If you learn how to mix on a Pio mixer, it'll be easier to mix on other Pio mixers; but it's pretty easy to transition to a Pio mixer and CDJs from an S4 anyway. Knowing how to mix on a variety of gear has very little to do with owning or even accessing said gear, so much as it has to do with preparation; I learned how to mix on CDJs and Turntables by watching others use them and restricting my usage of the S4 to emulate the restrictions/workflow of those pieces of hardware. Once I had my own pair of turntables (eventually), the transition was actually pretty easy. Gear doesn't make the DJ; effort, passion, and creativity do. The enemy here is not the S4, it's complacency and laziness.
Lang Abriel 31.12.2012	I read through the first 3 pages of this post....I have one comment concerning the whole thing. If you want to be a better dj, watch good dj's....learn from them instead of consulting community s where most of the comments aren't fully explained or understood by newer posters. If those good dj's are rocking controllers, vinyl, CDJs, a banjo and tin bucket then you can do the same with your setup if it is similar.
Rolanda Clodfelder 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by fullenglishpint No they don't. Did you pay for your arguement ? :P
Tatum Ansaldo 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by MaxOne people on the Internet have different opinions No they don't.
Hipolito Scionti 30.12.2012	And the main thing is the s2 and s4 aren't crappy. They are pretty good and reasonably priced. Defo what I'd recommend to a newbie... And I ain't a newbie. I love quality gear. I personally like pioneer gear and believe djm900 is a great mixer. But other people will say it's crap. Even though it's used in super clubs the world over. Go figure, people on the Internet have different opinions Also NI gear appears to be getting more "quality" and modular no? Z2 is got to be considered a step up in build from the s2/4 no? So how has the jerk circle been detrimental so far?
Geri Jarra 30.12.2012	600347_381616028592586_820145139_n.jpg Well Im glad that everyone is getting suspicious because when I last checked this thread It seemed like people were agreeing with your unwarranted negativity. Im not going to waste my time voicing my opinion because you're obviously ignorant as hell and I don't talk to ignorant people. I'm just going to repeat the question everyone is asking. WHAT ARE YOUR OLD USERNAMES & WHY DO YOU INSIST ON MAKING NEW ONES?? <- please ignore this question one more time to further prove your ignorance.
Tatum Ansaldo 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by whiskeyflip I'm definitely not claiming that this is all your fault, but you've been doing your part for YEARS to keep this a circle jerk, so you can feel like you're doing a great job because nobody ever argues. What is this 'circle jerk' we're all supposed to be perpetuating? I've lost what it is you're actually complaining about. Personally, I've owned and used a very wide variety of DJ gear and feel I'm in a good position to be recommending what is best for someone if I know about their situation. For some people, the best and most cost effective solution was and still is the S4. For others it's a vestax spin, or a pair of Technics, or an APC40, or a modified PC keyboard. For a few people it's the kind of setup I use. For the absolute beginner, it may actually be that someone who just bought an S2 and loves it gives better advice than someone like me with a plethora of gear and long standing prejudices about some manufacturers. Just chill out and let it happen, the world is not going to go to shit because another new DJ bought an S4. For now my suggestion to you is that if you know as much as you claim to, help people out rather than slamming them for not knowing anything. I have learnt an absolutely massive amount just by being part of this community, and I've found you get much better responses when you have a good attitude. As for this argument between you and me, it's getting silly and that's just as much my fault as it is yours. I'm not going to take any action over it, that would be petty. Can we agree to call it quits? It's going nowhere.
Jolynn Schroyer 30.12.2012	Cheaper gear doesn't always mean your a complete noob. Some of the cheaper gear do the same exact things as the high end gear for a third of the price. A dj to me is someone who can make the crowd jump with any gear sent his way. It's the skills not the gear.
Tatiana Verdeja 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by Nicky H Well I believe that already happens to be honest. If people were giving bad advice then someone would correct them. Your main problem seems to be with people suggesting either the S2 or S4 as a starter controller, maybe most of the more knowledgeable members don't agree with you that it's a bad choice. Then they probably aren't the most knowledgeable... Most of the people who were obviously the most knowledgeable from back before the S4 was around don't endorse it. Having had an S4 for a year myself... I can tell you, nobody that is very knowledgeable would be suggesting that thing for anything other than a cheap solution for timecode at this point. Keep in mind, just because you've been here for a long time doesn't automatically mean you're knowledgeable... Newbies show up all the time that have a deeper knowledge than people with several thousand posts. When I say knowledgeable peopel shoudl speak up more, I'm talking about the TOP tier of knowledge here, the DJ "nerds", that know a lot abotu a lot of different gear... THEY are the ones that should be correcting people... Not just anyone who's been paying attention to DJ gear long enough to not be called a newbie. I don't have a specific issue with the S2/S4, it's just that it's the most commonly discussed controller on these community s, so I use it as an example a lot. I have experience with lots of other shitty controllers that I'd be discussing if people were constantly talking about them like they are with the S4.
Janyce Henningson 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by whiskeyflip Oh all I'm trying to suggest is that the more knowledgeable people do their best to be heard more, and be more willing to correct the inexperienced people when they would otherwise convince people to follow their uninformed advice. Well I believe that already happens to be honest. If people were giving bad advice then someone would correct them. Your main problem seems to be with people suggesting either the S2 or S4 as a starter controller, maybe most of the more knowledgeable members don't agree with you that it's a bad choice.
Tatiana Verdeja 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by Nicky H So what do you suggest then? Oh all I'm trying to suggest is that the more knowledgeable people do their best to be heard more, and be more willing to correct the inexperienced people when they would otherwise convince people to follow their uninformed advice. There's no reason to blame anyone in this situation. You can't blame new people for feeling like they know everything, just like you can't blame teeangers for believeing they're smarter than their parents.... You just have to do your best to steer them.
Tatiana Verdeja 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by fullenglishpint Funny, because you say you've been here for years under different names, and your join date is just a couple of days after the last time oilythread was banned. I notice you still haven't said who you were before, I see accountability is not one of your strong points. As for your lovely 'circle jerk' idea, no one here is plotting behind the scenes to push forward the NI agenda or whatever conspiracy you believe is going on. The mods on this community are all just people like the rest of the community members who've shown themselves to be trustworthy and given extra responsibility. We don't sit in a cave round a cauldron and try to engineer the downfall of creativity. The general impression I'm getting is that for some reason you don't like NI or the S4, so you've come to the logical conclusion that anyone who recommends it is an evil beige robot trying to make everything bland and shoddy. You're actually advocating people being unhelpful. Way to go. So now you're going to insinuate that I am someone that a lot of people have discounted in the past, to convince people that I'm beign a dick now? Just because I don't have the means to prove you wrong at my disposal? We both know I'm not that person, and you're just being sly in trying to convince people I'm wrong. Then you try to make me out to be a conspiracy theorist crazy person? Obviosuly I know you're not doing it for nefarious reasons, and I know you're intelligent enough to know I don't believe that. You specifically are just taking your job too seriously... I've watched you use your endorsed position to control arguments for YEARS, to make anyone critical shut up. You just take your job too seriosuly. Your job is not to prevent people from being critical... You believe nobody ever pointing out shortcomings means you're doing a good job... But your job is just to make sure fights don't break out over it. People not wanting to deal with being critical of one another is very short-sighted, and I've already explained how it affects the meta-scene in the long run. I'm definitely not claiming that this is all your fault, but you've been doing your part for YEARS to keep this a circle jerk, so you can feel like you're doing a great job because nobody ever argues.
Janyce Henningson 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by whiskeyflip ...And I'm STILL talking about newbies GIVING advice, not ASKING for it. So what do you suggest then?
Tatum Ansaldo 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by whiskeyflip No, but someone else asked that on a post about the new Behringer controllers so I read back through some of his rants. At least the kid was being critical... Funny, because you say you've been here for years under different names, and your join date is just a couple of days after the last time oilythread was banned. I notice you still haven't said who you were before, I see accountability is not one of your strong points. As for your lovely 'circle jerk' idea, no one here is plotting behind the scenes to push forward the NI agenda or whatever conspiracy you believe is going on. The mods on this community are all just people like the rest of the community members who've shown themselves to be trustworthy and given extra responsibility. We don't sit in a cave round a cauldron and try to engineer the downfall of creativity. The general impression I'm getting is that for some reason you don't like NI or the S4, so you've come to the logical conclusion that anyone who recommends it is an evil beige robot trying to make everything bland and shoddy. You're actually advocating people being unhelpful. Way to go.
Tatiana Verdeja 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by Stewe Was one of your usernames 'oilythread'? No, but someone else asked that on a post about the new Behringer controllers so I read back through some of his rants. At least the kid is being critical...
Len Lukawski 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by Stewe Was one of your usernames 'oilythread'? no friends.JPG Definitely fits....
Tatiana Verdeja 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by 0Notice I was saying that all new DJs have knowledge that they can share with others they aren't "Blind." Nothing is wrong with them giving advice, if they are ill-advised someone will correct them. Everyone has good information to share. this entire discussion started with me pointing out that people should be correcting the ill-advised more. When someone comes in asking what controller they should buy, they should fewer "buy an S4, they're the best for the money right now", and they should get more "Tell us more about what you want to do, what scene you want to be playing in etc. and we'll suggest things specifically for your situation". An uninformed person telling every uninformed person to buy an S4 just creates another uninformed person telling uninformed people to buy S4s.
Kellie Myrum 30.12.2012	Was one of your usernames 'oilythread'?
Valeri Millstein 30.12.2012	I was saying that all new DJs have knowledge that they can share with others they aren't "Blind." Nothing is wrong with them giving advice, if they are ill-advised someone will correct them. Everyone has good information to share.
Matt Kane 30.12.2012	i
Tatiana Verdeja 30.12.2012	It's VERY different... 2000nexuses are insanely overpriced, but their build quality is among the highest. calling them "the bomb" is much more accurate than calling a mixtrack "the best thing ever". And I'm STILL talking about newbies GIVING advice, not ASKING for it. The problem is that while they're still "learning their way", they're getting other newbies lost when they offer to guide them, thus creating a viscous cycle. Also it's pretty unwarranted to just decide that I must be worried about gigs... But I'll humor you, personally I am a resident for the two largest rave event companies in my area, and that takes up the majority of my available gig time. I'm not worried about losing gigs, as I said, my issue is that I'm watching the gear quality deteriorating, because people aren't being critical of it.
Yong Aptekar 30.12.2012	Is your attitude and your obsession with handies the reason you have had so many accounts? You come at us with a lot of attitude that really isn't warranted. The newbs who believe that their new mixtrack is the best thing they have ever owned is no different than anyone believeing their cdj2000nexus is the bomb. Let the newbs learn their way, let them discuss their craft, and let it be a hobby if that's all it is for you. You worry about all of the gigs being stolen by 2 week in DJs.
Tatiana Verdeja 30.12.2012	......? Did the metaphor go over your head, or....? We're talking about people who don't know what they're talking about giving advice. I've just shortened it by calling them "newbies".
Valeri Millstein 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by whiskeyflip A blind man has the right to offer to lead a blind man, without telling him he's also blind. He probably shouldn't do that though. Newbies aren't blind.
Tatiana Verdeja 30.12.2012	A blind man has the right to offer to lead a blind man, without telling him he's also blind. He probably shouldn't do that though.
Valeri Millstein 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by whiskeyflip Every single time I remind us to be critical, and screw up the circle-jerk the mods and some of of the other other veterans work so hard to protect, they try to make me out to be the asshole like this, to keep their little masterbation party going... I started discussing this two or three years ago or so when there was an influx of new DJs telling each other to buy mixtracks... And a lot of people agreed, just like now, and a lot of newbies cried, and several of the moderators bitched about me "being negative". So yeah you guys are right, not much has changed on this community , it just should. But whatever, the points have been made. I've explained why it's important to be critical of the industry. Hopefully some of the people in the circle jerk will realize that, while the rest will just keep pleasuring each other and letting the scene fall to shit. Good luck with your judgments they accomplished nothing here. People will make the scene what they want it to be. Those DJs with mixtracks aren't really ruining your scene and they aren't stealing your gigs so get over it. Newbies can provide their opinions to others however they want, just as you can. Everyone has a voice why would you want to silence it when they are trying to be helpful?
Tatiana Verdeja 30.12.2012	Every single time I remind us to be critical, and screw up the circle-jerk the mods and some of of the other other veterans work so hard to protect, they try to make me out to be the asshole like this, to keep their little masterbation party going... But whatever, the points have been made. I've explained why it's important to be critical of the industry. Hopefully some of the people in the circle jerk will realize that, while the rest will just keep pleasuring each other and letting the scene fall to shit.
Celine Surico 30.12.2012	I'm a good example where lots of posts don't mean my replies are constructive.
Len Lukawski 30.12.2012	And people who have made genuine attempts on Jive Bunny's life.
Janyce Henningson 30.12.2012	I agree - from now on only members for over 3 years can answer questions, oh and DMC champs .... or Deadmau5
Len Lukawski 30.12.2012	As Iceland's President said, "it's oh so quiet..."
Tatum Ansaldo 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by whiskeyflip Like I've said, I've been here for 4-5 years, and had many accounts. Your account has been around for aaaaaalmost a year. Welcome to the community s by the way, Dripstep. Dripstep is a valued member of this community who is very helpful. You, as far as we know, joined this month and have 36 posts. Please do enlighten us, who were your former personas?
Tatum Ansaldo 30.12.2012	Originally Posted by whiskeyflip My two or three last posts explain why it is important for the culture to be educated... Because it influences the meta-scene. For example, it's just like why we should be talking about progressive things like alternative fuels etc. to make them more mainstream concepts. There are people on this community who make their own midi controllers, and that's awesome. If they have an innovative idea, they can make it public and spread the word. However, that's not for everyone. Neither are CDJs or turntables. You seem to have this ideal of "The DJ" as some sort of ultimate music reproduction entity, each of whom should be utterly unique. The fact is that some people just want to give DJing a go without breaking the bank, and for them a $200 controller is perfect. I have a lot of experience recommending gear to people on this community . I know a lot about what's available and what it can do. Since I don't work for a DJ hardware company, I don't feel it's my job to market expensive gear to people. I recommend what I believe is right for them. Furthermore, I don't believe it's anyone's job to police what people buy. Good ideas get talked about here, it's not just the big name controllers. Think of the QuNeo and Behringer's CMD line for example. Originally Posted by whiskeyflip There isn't a problem with newbies ASKING questions, the problem is newbies ANSWERING questions, and speaking as if they knew what they were talking about. I just explained the tangible repercussions of this, with the S2/S4/F1's locked-down system that doesn't serve the customer as well as it would if the community was more vocal about not letting them get away with it. What a load of bollocks. There's no such thing as an absolute newbie who knows nothing, they may very well know the answer to the question. You don't need 5 years of DJ experience to know how Traktor mapping works or whatever. And if someone gives a wrong answer, there are enough people around here who do know what they're talking about to put them right. Maybe your apparent frustration would be better spent correcting these mistakes than bitching about them.
Valeri Millstein 30.12.2012	Those accounts you have with your "thousands" of posts are where?
Edwina Fagel 30.12.2012	haha, I love seeing trolls pop up from time to time. whiskeyflip, your alibi doesn't really work too good and I love to see how you attack back with no real facts just to make people feel bad. Trying to find authority with saying you have been around for many years doesn't work.

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A disconnect I'm noticing in the culture