CDJ Pitch Accuracy
CDJ Pitch Accuracy Posted on: 19.02.2012 by Sulema Eshel OK guys.. after a bit of help here. Have tested a few cheaper CDJs and have been finding that the pitch ONLY changes when the CDJ's on-'screen' %age value changes (e.g. from 0.1%>0.2%). To test, you need TSP & a timecode CD I ran a CDJ (with Traktor timecode CD loaded) into an Audio 8, and changed the pitch on the CDJ. The tempo in Traktor ONLY changed when the %age readout on the CDJ in question (American Audio Radius 1000) changed. So, I can therefore get 0.5% and 0.6% tempo on the CDJ, BUT NOT 0.55%. I also tested this on my Citronic MP-X10 (USB stick player) after ripping the Traktor timecode CD to USB stick (legal? ), and got exactly the same result (although admittedly the AA Radius and Citronic firmwares are similar). Back to using CDJs and mixer (no Traktor), 0.1% accuracy is ok. You can mix with it, but you can't lock tunes in like you can with Technics. I am often finding that one value is too slow and the next is too fast. I always thought it was my pitch slider control when I couldn't get the tunes to lock, until I tested their actual resolution using Traktor. On the AA Radius, on 4% pitch range, there are only 81 steps of accuracy/resolution (-4.0->+4.0)... people complain about 7 bit midi resolution (127 steps) using controllers, but 81 is far less than 127 (although it is still, technically, 7 bit! ). 7 bit is not enough for MIDI controllers, and therefore definitely not enough for CDJs! I am currently believeing of buying a pair of new CDJs (Numark NDX900 - liking the double interface), but am now worried of them having this 'feature'. Is this normal to ALL CDJs, or just the cheaper ones? (I believe I know the answer to this, but would like to know at what price point/quality that the accuracy improves) Any chance of any of 'you lot' with various CDJs can test and see how common this is? I expect that it is manufacturer specific (as manufacturers will tend to use the same [pitch slider control] code in a lot of different products). Any CDJ that cannot give me more accuracy than 0.1% should be given to the toddlers to play with (should really be 0.01% resolution or less). I know 0.1% doesn't sound like much, but when you are mid-way between the 2 values, it does notice a lot. It's enough to distract you so that you have to worry about tempos and nudging it every phrase or so. This takes brain CPU cycles, which results in me doing less in the mix, which results in a more boring set, which results in me getting less bookings (& therefore, money), & which results in me having to buy cheap CDJs that only have 0.1% accuracy!!!! :eek: Many thanks if you can add your CDJs accuracy to this thread, and some sort of accuracy indicator. If your CDJs are too sensitive to give an accuracy, then great, they are the ones I want! Thanyovermuch | |
| Carletta Riemer 28.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
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| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Have recently purchased a Kam KCD450, and it's a bloody great CDJ - pitch accuracy down to 0.01% at 8% range, half that (0.02%) at 16 and 0.2% at 100 (actually 0.2% to +/-50% and then 0.3% beyond that) - which means that on 100% range on the KCD450, I am only losing half the accuracy when compared to my MP-X10 on 6% - go figure! That Kam deck though is bloody good for what it is. I got mine for |
| Carletta Riemer 28.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
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| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Have recently purchased a Kam KCD450, and it's a bloody great CDJ - pitch accuracy down to 0.01% at 8% range, half that (0.02%) at 16 and 0.2% at 100 (actually 0.2% to +/-50% and then 0.3% beyond that) - which means that on 100% range on the KCD450, I am only losing half the accuracy when compared to my MP-X10 on 6% - go figure! That Kam deck though is bloody good for what it is. I got mine for |
| Carletta Riemer 28.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
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| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Have recently purchased a Kam KCD450, and it's a bloody great CDJ - pitch accuracy down to 0.01% at 8% range, half that (0.02%) at 16 and 0.2% at 100 (actually 0.2% to +/-50% and then 0.3% beyond that) - which means that on 100% range on the KCD450, I am only losing half the accuracy when compared to my MP-X10 on 6% - go figure! That Kam deck though is bloody good for what it is. I got mine for |
| Carletta Riemer 28.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
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| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Have recently purchased a Kam KCD450, and it's a bloody great CDJ - pitch accuracy down to 0.01% at 8% range, half that (0.02%) at 16 and 0.2% at 100 (actually 0.2% to +/-50% and then 0.3% beyond that) - which means that on 100% range on the KCD450, I am only losing half the accuracy when compared to my MP-X10 on 6% - go figure! That Kam deck though is bloody good for what it is. I got mine for |
| Carletta Riemer 28.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
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| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Have recently purchased a Kam KCD450, and it's a bloody great CDJ - pitch accuracy down to 0.01% at 8% range, half that (0.02%) at 16 and 0.2% at 100 (actually 0.2% to +/-50% and then 0.3% beyond that) - which means that on 100% range on the KCD450, I am only losing half the accuracy when compared to my MP-X10 on 6% - go figure! That Kam deck though is bloody good for what it is. I got mine for |
| Carletta Riemer 28.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
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| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Reticuli - tip 4 ya: Get a little 75W inverter for your car (plugs into cigarette lighter socket), a lead to connect your Versadeck/MP-X10 to your car stereo and you (or someone else) can mix as you drive . Although: if I mix and I am driving (which I probably shouldn't! ) the 0.1% accuracy thing comes back to bite me in the arse, as moving the pitch fader by feel alone means that I don't actually know whether the pitch/tempo has changed - which means looking at the unit - which means taking eyes off road - which is not good. It's not actually as dangerous as it sounds , as most of the time mixing you are simply listening - not actually needing to touch anything. Still, it's the best use I have found for this unit yet! Oh, and if the car judders a bit too much, the deck may go into stutter as the jog wheel gets moved |
| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Have recently purchased a Kam KCD450, and it's a bloody great CDJ - pitch accuracy down to 0.01% at 8% range, half that (0.02%) at 16 and 0.2% at 100 (actually 0.2% to +/-50% and then 0.3% beyond that) - which means that on 100% range on the KCD450, I am only losing half the accuracy when compared to my MP-X10 on 6% - go figure! That Kam deck though is bloody good for what it is. I got mine for |
| Carletta Riemer 18.06.2012 | And that's assuming the tracks are perfect in timing to begin with. Add actual timing variations within tracks, and a 0.05 pitch resolution in internal USB mode or CD playback or on a 10-bit fader in the most used pitch ranges is still vastly inferior to 0.25-0.01 pitch resolution that we seem to get with 14-bit pitch faders in the usual ranges... assuming you are careful in your original blend. 10-bit is the minimum you want in a pitch fader for mixing. 7/8-bit is garbage, unless you plan on mixing only tracks that are nearly the same BPM and you use, say, 2-4% pitch range. And if you are constraining yourself to that, then you |
| Verline Sura 24.02.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
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| Carlotta Fabick 23.02.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
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| Carletta Riemer 28.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
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| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Reticuli - tip 4 ya: Get a little 75W inverter for your car (plugs into cigarette lighter socket), a lead to connect your Versadeck/MP-X10 to your car stereo and you (or someone else) can mix as you drive . Although: if I mix and I am driving (which I probably shouldn't! ) the 0.1% accuracy thing comes back to bite me in the arse, as moving the pitch fader by feel alone means that I don't actually know whether the pitch/tempo has changed - which means looking at the unit - which means taking eyes off road - which is not good. It's not actually as dangerous as it sounds , as most of the time mixing you are simply listening - not actually needing to touch anything. Still, it's the best use I have found for this unit yet! Oh, and if the car judders a bit too much, the deck may go into stutter as the jog wheel gets moved |
| Sulema Eshel 27.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Have recently purchased a Kam KCD450, and it's a bloody great CDJ - pitch accuracy down to 0.01% at 8% range, half that (0.02%) at 16 and 0.2% at 100 (actually 0.2% to +/-50% and then 0.3% beyond that) - which means that on 100% range on the KCD450, I am only losing half the accuracy when compared to my MP-X10 on 6% - go figure! That Kam deck though is bloody good for what it is. I got mine for |
| Carletta Riemer 26.11.2012 | My Versadeck is .05 in internal playback mode even at 16% pitch range. It shows it separately in the middle of the screen when you make a change briefly. The pitch readout on the right side only shows 0.1 increments like the Numarks do. (for the record, some older Numarks are something like 10-12bit res even though they also only show 0.1). It gets no better at lower ranges, though, on the Versadeck which means it's not completely taking advantage of the 10-bit pitch resolution in internal mode. You can get slightly better resolution with it as a MIDI controller. 0.05 is the useable minimum for a player and works fine with a little babysitting. But with a long 100mm fader and at the lower pitch ranges in USB player mode, very small movements of the fader can hypothetically do nothing. So you have to watch the screen to see if it changed or leave it at 16% range, which is what I usually do. Even then, very tiny movements might go unrecognized. If you’re not watching, you need to move bigger amounts to be sure. A 14bit fader wouldn't behave like that with the proper player firmware or MIDI emulation. And yeah, a firmware update could improve the 10bit fader here further... as would adding AIFF and/or FLAC support. And the pitch bend being time based, not rate based. And the lack of jog rotation sensitivity in options. All need to be fixed. I'm still crossing my fingers in futility. |
| Sulema Eshel 19.06.2012 | The Versadeck 10-bit pitch fader thing - in internal playback, it only has 0.1% resolution... so when range is on 6%, you get 121 steps on the fader.... that's not even 7 bit. On the ADJ radius CDJs, they have a 4% range, giving only 81 steps! Joke is if you switch to 8% range, you get exactly the same accuracy (0.1% steps again!), just have to move the fader less! Bad design, which is what I am on about here Seeing as the pitch in midi has 10bit accuracy, it's not really the pitch fader, but the firmware in the unit. |
| Sulema Eshel 19.06.2012 | Thanks guys for that, was getting slated at the start of this thread... yeah, I CAN mix with shitty pitch controls and nudge, but if I'm spending money on my own kit, I don't wanna have to make do. Thanks for doing the 31 secs math, as I couldn't be arsed to work it out |
| Carletta Riemer 18.06.2012 | And that's assuming the tracks are perfect in timing to begin with. Add actual timing variations within tracks, and a 0.05 pitch resolution in internal USB mode or CD playback or on a 10-bit fader in the most used pitch ranges is still vastly inferior to 0.25-0.01 pitch resolution that we seem to get with 14-bit pitch faders in the usual ranges... assuming you are careful in your original blend. 10-bit is the minimum you want in a pitch fader for mixing. 7/8-bit is garbage, unless you plan on mixing only tracks that are nearly the same BPM and you use, say, 2-4% pitch range. And if you are constraining yourself to that, then you |
| Dorie Scelzo 18.06.2012 | Your definition of average is incorrect. And I was sure you knew all of this. Just kinda felt like being pedantic while stuck doing things I didn't want to do to keep myself awake. No offense intended. |
| Dorie Scelzo 19.06.2012 | Your math is right, but misleading. Max drift speed: .025 % * 120 BPM = 0.06 BPM -> 33 minutes, 20 seconds to drift 1 beat, so that's correct. But, it seems like drift becomes audible at about 1/64th to 1/32 beat if not earlier, so that's actually more like 15 to 30 seconds to be audible in the worst case scenario. Still…a tiny nudge on a platter or tiny tweak of a pitch fader a few times a minute is nothing. |
| Carletta Riemer 17.06.2012 | Blah. The NDX only supports MP3 over USB drives. That's a deal breaker. Like the digital out. Need at least wav support, and flac would be even better. |
| Carletta Riemer 17.06.2012 | Numark's old Axis 8s were about the same res as all the top pioneer decks, even though they only showed 0.1 increments. You could tell by the way it changed around the zero point with + and -. I also had the correct pitch range from the firmware engineer who stated I believe that it was like 0.3 or something at one of the ranges between 10 or 12% and the lowest one. So it didn't just pop up to .05 after you switched above the lowest range. Anyone find out about the pitch res on the NDX-900? By the way, 10-bit res is the minimum you want. The fader length should be about 60mm for that to get proper change at any motion. Shorter and you're wasting res. Longer, and small motions won't register... like on the Xponent. Not a terrible thing, but you just have to watch the screen. 10-bit will give you at least .05 at the 8, 10, 12, and 16% ranges. It will actually be better in software at lower ranges than 16% than on the Pioneers. 14-bit is obviously the best. Buying new stuff nowadays, you should accept no substitutes. Don't let companies rip you off. Make them source quality 14-bit pots for their 100mm faders. And like 10-bit, any shorter than 100mm will waste res. A little longer might not hurt, but 100mm 14-bit pots is a sweetspot. |
| Sulema Eshel 24.02.2012 | Practise?? 18 years' worth not enough then?? Technics can lock in, yeah, maybe the tiniest play on the spindle required to keep it locked (yeah, ok, so it's not locked, but it's damn close), but with 0.1% on accuracy, you are correcting every 16 or 32 beats (which is FAR more of an adjustment than required on technics). Maybe I am getting too finicky, but had a tune the other evening
, I needed 0.95%, but could only get 0.9 or 1.0%. Was annoying as hell to mix, and I longed for a more accurate pitch. If I should 'just get used to it' then why are DJTT (& Ean) among others, raving about 14 bit midi on pitch faders?? - surely the 7 bit should do just fine then, and that people should just 'get used to it'? My point is that if I am going to drop some money on gear , this sort of half arsed implementation is what really pisses me off!... the manufacturers add just enough for it to look good on- and to shift off the sales floor, only for you to take it home and find it's shit, when you use it 'properly', rather than playing in a shop. FYI I CAN happily mix with 0.1% accuracy on the pitch, and likewise I CAN happily mix on some soundlab belt drives, but I'd PREFER technics, and i'd PREFER more accuracy on CDJs. Yes, I KNOW I can nudge it into time... (as that IS what I do to correct anyways) but it's just too coarse for when your tune needs that 0.05% and you're mixing some long-ass techno intro while sucking on a balloon (now this is no ordinary balloon parents... ) Just sayin that I don't want to pay money for crap resolution... have been there, and it's shit... Oh, and thx for everyone who's bashing me here, but let's keep it light shall we folks, as that's what this excellent community is all about. |
| Brunilda Kora 24.02.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
Like mostapha said - try not to worry too much about it. It'll come with practice. |
| Verline Sura 24.02.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
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| Carlotta Fabick 23.02.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
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| Dorie Scelzo 23.02.2012 |
Originally Posted by escapemcp
First, you'll always have to fiddle. Second, I used to worry about things like that, just like you are, but Pioneer CDJs are plenty good enough. .05 is already more accurate than any Technics turntable and perfectly fine to mix on. And before you say "wait, the pitch faders on the technics were analog" |
| Carlotta Fabick 23.02.2012 |
Originally Posted by firebr4nd
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| Ulysses Vittetoe 23.02.2012 |
Originally Posted by TheSoundBureau
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| Carlotta Fabick 22.02.2012 |
Originally Posted by firebr4nd
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| Ulysses Vittetoe 22.02.2012 |
Originally Posted by TheSoundBureau
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| Sulema Eshel 20.02.2012 | Thx TSB. 0.02% is what I would accept as just about ok. I am surprised by the 0.05% figs on anything other than 6% range. It simply isn't accurate enough to get tight mixes that require no extra fiddling. Admittedly, with vinyl rips and older stuff, the bpm varies slightly anyway, but getting a mix locked in on newer digital stuff allows you to mess around with FX, EQ or other tricks to add a little something to the mix. I am surprised that no-one has bought this up before (especially trance jocks with their never ending mixes ). Searched DJTT community s, but couldn't find any mention of it. Hoping someone can test the Numark NDX800 or 900 . Am believeing of getting the NDX900 (CD/USB/midi player with separate soundcard for Traktor, and a sorta slip mode - god I love slip mode), but if it's 0.1% only, then I am having serious second thoughts. It's a joke that my USB player is far more accurate in MIDI mode (10bit res=1024 steps) than native USB MP3 mode! (@ 6% range=121 steps). |
| Carlotta Fabick 20.02.2012 | For CDJ-2000s/1000s/900s/850s/400s/350s/200s: +/- 6% : 0.02% +/- 10%: 0.05% +/- 16%: 0.05% +/- 100% (WIDE) : 0.5% (if the cdj even had wide) CDJ-800: +/- 10% : 0.05% +/- 100% (WIDE) : 0.5% for cds, 0.1% for mp3 |
| Sulema Eshel 20.02.2012 | Many, many thanks dope. Hopefully we can get most brands tested (i.e. other people please help!! ). The accuracy thing is something you wouldn't know unless you do the Traktor (or Serato I suppose) test - you would just believe that your mixing is a little off, which it would always be on those particular CDJs. |
| Kasi Marget 19.02.2012 | I'll try to test my CDJs 350 tomorrow if i can remind myself (wtf is that a correct sentence ? hope you got the point). Even though they are cheap CDJs, it's still from the best CDJ manufacturer so we'll see how it goes. |
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