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Does using a controller not make you a dj?

Home :: General Discussion :: Does using a controller not make you a dj?Reply

Does using a controller not make you a dj? Posted on: 10.11.2012 by Shela Toumey Hey all, I've been getting some crap lately from DJ's that use CDJ's and Vinyl. Pretty much the argument is that because I use a Controller (Kontrol S4) that I'm not a dj. I was wondering how people feel about this, and the following is overall how I kind of feel about the fight. 1.) "The controller has a Sync button, so you don't have to beat match" - Just because a controller has a sync button, doesn't mean that I don't know how to beat match. I went and learned the fundamentals on a set of numark HDX's and wasn't running time code for me to see the bpms to match those up. though with the technology most dj's use today they can set the bpm in the Timecode software they are using, or if using cdj's they can look at the readout as well. 2.) "Cue points are cheating because you can just use them to get right into your song without even setting up the track" - Just because I put a cue point on a song to remind me of where I should and shouldn't start and stop a track should make no difference. I listen to all of my tracks before making that deck live so to make sure the track flows well with the mix and all. If that is cheating then People using straight up Vinyl and put the little markers or stickers on their records are cheating too. 3.) "There is no talent in button Clicking" - It really bothers me when that is what djing with a controller is dumbed down to. If I'm just a button clicker, does that make you a needle dropper? These are just some of the things I have dealt with and overall this is my belief on the whole thing. It doesn't matter what you use or how you use it. What matters is that you are being creative and you are giving the Statium/Club/Bar/House/internet/bedroom your all and they are getting good vibe and dancing their A$$es off. If I use the sync button in a live mix, what that is doing is freeing up my time to be more creative, whether it be setting up some cue points and a drum section of a song so I can start doing some controllerism in a transition, talk into the mic to get the crowd hyped up more, or even find a new sample or track in my collection that might work in set that I'm currently doing (usually go into a show without a set playlist, usually do it all on the fly) it is giving me more time to make sure I'm giving the crowd a good show that they enjoy. Even if I wasn't adding effects and doing some controllerism in my set, and you break it down into me play a track, transition to the next and do that all evening ; how would me doing that on Vinyl or cdj's be any different than a controller? It would be just going through the motions and not being creative. Let me know what you all believe
Roseanna Signorini 15.11.2012	Originally Posted by haze324 While I truly appreciate the convenience of controllers and I use them and have fun.....but the whole thing of dropping a sample and having to spin back the record. I truly enjoy that MUCH more than just pressing a button over and over. I believe the idea counting bars, baby scratching a track and dropping it on the one, then matching the beats is that if you know how to do that you can play on ANY piece of gear and that becomes a lost art when some one just grabs a controller and presses a few buttons and calls themselves a DJ. I believe if you truly understand what you are doing as a DJ then you can get on any piece of gear and make it work. I believe if you are just hitting a button because hitting the button is what makes the 2 songs sound good together then you are a moron. Originally Posted by DJSigma That's phrase matching though. Beatmatching is getting the 2 tracks to the same tempo. Phrase matching is part of beatmatching IMO because you can match the tempo and it could be a train wreck. Same tempo doesn't mean its beatmatched. Beatmatching is making sure that the downbeat of both tracks match. I can match the downbeat of track A and the 3 beat of track B and be perfectly synced in tempo and beats but its still going to sound off because the wrong beats are matched.
Roseanna Signorini 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by DJSigma Let's say it got to the stage where you just click on tracks and the software does everything - beatmatching, levels, phrase matching, mixing, EQing - so you're just the equivalent of a jukebox standing there. Is it still "only about the music"? You don't feel more disconnected from what you're doing compared to how you DJ now? You wouldn't find that a dull way to DJ? Ther are a lot of musicians who believe that now. DJing is just pushing buttons. We know thats not true. Is it a Dull way to dj? It is but it is still DJing and what many DJs still do. Originally Posted by dj matt blaze Djing is about THE MUSIC not about the tools you use. Originally Posted by DJSigma It's about both, otherwise we'd all be using whatever is the cheapest piece of gear available that enables us to play "THE MUSIC". In fact, every DJ gear company would have gone bust apart from 1, cos there'd be no point having all this different gear. It's only about "THE MUSIC", so we don't need it - we'll all use the same thing, cos it doesn't matter at all right? I disagree. Its not about both. Its about the music, its about the song selection, its about how you manipulate the music and what you do to it and what comes out of the speakers. That is all that matters. The tools and how you achieve what you hear don't matter. NO one but other DJs care about what another DJ uses. The crowd at the club cares about the music, the songs, they would have no idea if the DJ was using a mixtrack or a Xone 4D. You are taking what I said about it being all about the music out of context. I am talking about from the crowds perspective because in the end, they decide if you were successful. The crowd cares about what they hear, they don't care about how a DJ achieves that. There is a point to different gear, personal preference and budget.
Lina Rawie 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by dj matt blaze Even when using sync there is more to beatmatching than just hitting the button. There is also dropping it on the right phrase and the right beat. That's phrase matching though. Beatmatching is getting the 2 tracks to the same tempo. Originally Posted by dj matt blaze This is the beauty of technology and using it to your advantage instead of being stuck in the past and trying to learn to manually beatmatch with a record. Do you actually read my posts before responding? It doesn't seem to be the case, as nobody is talking about using records. Originally Posted by dj matt blaze Its only the DJs that are all about turntables that can't grasp that its about the MUSIC Again, it's nothing to do with turntables specifically and I addressed your "all about the MUSIC" nonsense above. If it really was ALL about the music, we'd all be DJing with nice, convenient little iPods. The music is the most important thing - I would agree with that 100% - but to say it's ALL about the music is to misunderstand DJing I'm afraid. If you skip learning beatmatching - and I'm not saying that once you've learned how to do it well, that you have to continue to do it manually forever and ever - then you're not a well-rounded DJ. You're the kid that can't add-up when I take his calculator away.
Beverlee Bedrin 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by dj matt blaze How would learning the old fashion way connect you to the music more and why would it? Its like saying watching tv on an old 13" tv will connect you more to the tv show than watching it on a new flat screen. The show is still the same show. The music is the same, the song doesn't magically become a better song because you are manipulating a 12" platter rather than a jog wheel or hitting a button. Djing is about THE MUSIC not about the tools you use. I disagree with this. I didn't come from a vinyl background, but I did learn to beat match manually on CDJs about 6 years ago. About a year and a half ago I bought the S4 which I still own and use today, and started playing out with just that. Since there was a big sync button right in front of me, naturally, I used it. I figured that it freed up a bit of time to focus on finding that next perfect track so that's what I did. Eventually, I became somewhat disconnected to the groove and just ended using up a lot of time looking at my laptop, hunting for the next track. So I decided to go back to using my CDJs with time code, turned off sync, turned off the phase meters, and placed my laptop to the side so it wasn't right in front of me. I couldn't be happier. For me at least, manually beat matching most definitely helps connect me to the groove. I dance more now when djing. I pulse and bob to the groove and when I'm playing out, my sets are more spontaneous, even with my track selection 'cause I'm not searching for the next "perfect" track all the time. Now I understand that some may be able to do the same if your auto syncing, but for me at least, doing it manually just kinda forces my body to move to the beat because I'm physically connecting myself with my ears.
Hanna Ridenbaugh 14.11.2012	533577_10151310267491013_1851485310_n.jpg
Lina Rawie 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by dj matt blaze I understand Sigma's point because I know what its like to DJ on turntables, I know whats its like to get a new record, drop the needle, hear the faint crackle before the songs plays. Its a different feeling than getting an mp3 which can be 1 out of 50 I just downloaded, playing it for a few seconds and then on to the next 1. But for someone new who will never know that, never have anything to compare it to will not be a better DJ because they learned the old fashion way to beatmatch. My point has nothing to do with vinyl though man, as I said here when talking about learning to beatmatch manually: - Originally Posted by Me It can be done on turntables, but you can do it with the very latest CD decks and controllers too. And..... Originally Posted by Me I'm certainly not saying that DJs have to go out and buy a pair of 1200s and a few crates of vinyl. If you and another DJ are equal in all areas, except he can beatmatch manually and you can't, then he is more skilled than you and is therefore better and more versatile than you are - it's that simple.
Roseanna Signorini 15.11.2012	Originally Posted by haze324 While I truly appreciate the convenience of controllers and I use them and have fun.....but the whole thing of dropping a sample and having to spin back the record. I truly enjoy that MUCH more than just pressing a button over and over. I believe the idea counting bars, baby scratching a track and dropping it on the one, then matching the beats is that if you know how to do that you can play on ANY piece of gear and that becomes a lost art when some one just grabs a controller and presses a few buttons and calls themselves a DJ. I believe if you truly understand what you are doing as a DJ then you can get on any piece of gear and make it work. I believe if you are just hitting a button because hitting the button is what makes the 2 songs sound good together then you are a moron. Originally Posted by DJSigma That's phrase matching though. Beatmatching is getting the 2 tracks to the same tempo. Phrase matching is part of beatmatching IMO because you can match the tempo and it could be a train wreck. Same tempo doesn't mean its beatmatched. Beatmatching is making sure that the downbeat of both tracks match. I can match the downbeat of track A and the 3 beat of track B and be perfectly synced in tempo and beats but its still going to sound off because the wrong beats are matched.
Roseanna Signorini 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by DJSigma Let's say it got to the stage where you just click on tracks and the software does everything - beatmatching, levels, phrase matching, mixing, EQing - so you're just the equivalent of a jukebox standing there. Is it still "only about the music"? You don't feel more disconnected from what you're doing compared to how you DJ now? You wouldn't find that a dull way to DJ? Ther are a lot of musicians who believe that now. DJing is just pushing buttons. We know thats not true. Is it a Dull way to dj? It is but it is still DJing and what many DJs still do. Originally Posted by dj matt blaze Djing is about THE MUSIC not about the tools you use. Originally Posted by DJSigma It's about both, otherwise we'd all be using whatever is the cheapest piece of gear available that enables us to play "THE MUSIC". In fact, every DJ gear company would have gone bust apart from 1, cos there'd be no point having all this different gear. It's only about "THE MUSIC", so we don't need it - we'll all use the same thing, cos it doesn't matter at all right? I disagree. Its not about both. Its about the music, its about the song selection, its about how you manipulate the music and what you do to it and what comes out of the speakers. That is all that matters. The tools and how you achieve what you hear don't matter. NO one but other DJs care about what another DJ uses. The crowd at the club cares about the music, the songs, they would have no idea if the DJ was using a mixtrack or a Xone 4D. You are taking what I said about it being all about the music out of context. I am talking about from the crowds perspective because in the end, they decide if you were successful. The crowd cares about what they hear, they don't care about how a DJ achieves that. There is a point to different gear, personal preference and budget.
Julissa Serrone 14.11.2012	While I truly appreciate the convenience of controllers and I use them and have fun.....but the whole thing of dropping a sample and having to spin back the record. I truly enjoy that MUCH more than just pressing a button over and over. I believe the idea counting bars, baby scratching a track and dropping it on the one, then matching the beats is that if you know how to do that you can play on ANY piece of gear and that becomes a lost art when some one just grabs a controller and presses a few buttons and calls themselves a DJ.
Lina Rawie 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by dj matt blaze Even when using sync there is more to beatmatching than just hitting the button. There is also dropping it on the right phrase and the right beat. That's phrase matching though. Beatmatching is getting the 2 tracks to the same tempo. Originally Posted by dj matt blaze This is the beauty of technology and using it to your advantage instead of being stuck in the past and trying to learn to manually beatmatch with a record. Do you actually read my posts before responding? It doesn't seem to be the case, as nobody is talking about using records. Originally Posted by dj matt blaze Its only the DJs that are all about turntables that can't grasp that its about the MUSIC Again, it's nothing to do with turntables specifically and I addressed your "all about the MUSIC" nonsense above. If it really was ALL about the music, we'd all be DJing with nice, convenient little iPods. The music is the most important thing - I would agree with that 100% - but to say it's ALL about the music is to misunderstand DJing I'm afraid. If you skip learning beatmatching - and I'm not saying that once you've learned how to do it well, that you have to continue to do it manually forever and ever - then you're not a well-rounded DJ. You're the kid that can't add-up when I take his calculator away.
Roseanna Signorini 14.11.2012	Even when using sync there is more to beatmatching than just hitting the button. There is also dropping it on the right phrase and the right beat. It doesn't take a musical genius to hear a train wreck and I don't get why people make such a big deal about manually beatmatching. I used to time all my records with an electronic metronome so I knew the tempo of every record and my records were in BPM order so I knew if the BPM was 120 and my next record was 121 BPM, I lowered the pitch down to 120 to match and wha la, beatmatched, not very hard. Sometimes it took a little longer to get it just right which is why in this day and age I just hit sync. I never pre plan sets, as soon as I drop a track I am looking for the next 1 and once I find it I set up an 8 beat loop, hit sync and see how it sounds in my phones. Ifii like it I can use the visual of the wave to know when the drop is and now the new skill is to be able to read the wave ahead of time so I can start my incoming track at a point so the drop of my incoming track happens right when the outgoing track has its drop off or I can echo out. You can set markers to know 32 beats from now is the drop so start your track NOW. This is the beauty of technology and using it to your advantage instead of being stuck in the past and trying to learn to manually beatmatch with a record. DJing has advanced well beyond that. Its only the DJs that are all about turntables that can't grasp that its about the MUSIC and DJs like me were believeing about this 20 years ago when I had to manually drop a Janet Jackson sample of her scream every 8 beats. Drop the sample spin the record back, drop it again, spin the record back, drop it again......
Julissa Serrone 14.11.2012	What Sigma said
Lina Rawie 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by dj matt blaze How would learning the old fashion way connect you to the music more and why would it? Its like saying watching tv on an old 13" tv will connect you more to the tv show than watching it on a new flat screen. It's not, because you're just sitting and watching either way in that example - what you do is no different whether it's a 13" TV or a whopping great plasma screen. In fact, that argument shows that gear does matter, because you feel more connected - more immersed in the movie - when you watch one on a big 50" plasma in HD with surround sound compared to watching it on a 13" black and white portable with mono sound. But that's solely about the gear because watching a movie is a passive activity. DJing is not (not yet anyway, lol). The more automated something becomes, the less connected to that activity you are, until you are no longer connected at all. Sometimes automation replaces something that is solely a chore - a TV remote control for example, as I doubt anyone actually enjoys getting up every time they want to switch channels - but with DJing, it is different for many people (see the guy's post above, for example). Let's say it got to the stage where you just click on tracks and the software does everything - beatmatching, levels, phrase matching, mixing, EQing - so you're just the equivalent of a jukebox standing there. Is it still "only about the music"? You don't feel more disconnected from what you're doing compared to how you DJ now? You wouldn't find that a dull way to DJ? Originally Posted by dj matt blaze Djing is about THE MUSIC not about the tools you use. It's about both, otherwise we'd all be using whatever is the cheapest piece of gear available that enables us to play "THE MUSIC". In fact, every DJ gear company would have gone bust apart from 1, cos there'd be no point having all this different gear. It's only about "THE MUSIC", so we don't need it - we'll all use the same thing, cos it doesn't matter at all right? @zimfella - Whoever made that image really doesn't understand this debate at all.
Beverlee Bedrin 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by dj matt blaze How would learning the old fashion way connect you to the music more and why would it? Its like saying watching tv on an old 13" tv will connect you more to the tv show than watching it on a new flat screen. The show is still the same show. The music is the same, the song doesn't magically become a better song because you are manipulating a 12" platter rather than a jog wheel or hitting a button. Djing is about THE MUSIC not about the tools you use. I disagree with this. I didn't come from a vinyl background, but I did learn to beat match manually on CDJs about 6 years ago. About a year and a half ago I bought the S4 which I still own and use today, and started playing out with just that. Since there was a big sync button right in front of me, naturally, I used it. I figured that it freed up a bit of time to focus on finding that next perfect track so that's what I did. Eventually, I became somewhat disconnected to the groove and just ended using up a lot of time looking at my laptop, hunting for the next track. So I decided to go back to using my CDJs with time code, turned off sync, turned off the phase meters, and placed my laptop to the side so it wasn't right in front of me. I couldn't be happier. For me at least, manually beat matching most definitely helps connect me to the groove. I dance more now when djing. I pulse and bob to the groove and when I'm playing out, my sets are more spontaneous, even with my track selection 'cause I'm not searching for the next "perfect" track all the time. Now I understand that some may be able to do the same if your auto syncing, but for me at least, doing it manually just kinda forces my body to move to the beat because I'm physically connecting myself with my ears.
Hanna Ridenbaugh 14.11.2012	533577_10151310267491013_1851485310_n.jpg
Lina Rawie 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by dj matt blaze I understand Sigma's point because I know what its like to DJ on turntables, I know whats its like to get a new record, drop the needle, hear the faint crackle before the songs plays. Its a different feeling than getting an mp3 which can be 1 out of 50 I just downloaded, playing it for a few seconds and then on to the next 1. But for someone new who will never know that, never have anything to compare it to will not be a better DJ because they learned the old fashion way to beatmatch. My point has nothing to do with vinyl though man, as I said here when talking about learning to beatmatch manually: - Originally Posted by Me It can be done on turntables, but you can do it with the very latest CD decks and controllers too. And..... Originally Posted by Me I'm certainly not saying that DJs have to go out and buy a pair of 1200s and a few crates of vinyl. If you and another DJ are equal in all areas, except he can beatmatch manually and you can't, then he is more skilled than you and is therefore better and more versatile than you are - it's that simple.
Tatum Ansaldo 14.11.2012	From a purely practical standpoint, knowing how to beat match by ear can get you out of some sticky situations. Apart from that, there's no need to learn how to DJ with vinyl or whatever if you don't want to.
Roseanna Signorini 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by MWagner I wasn't attempting in invalidate your point, just expand upon it in a general way. You don't have to tell me about learning the basics, I used vinyl for 10 years before switching to all digital. I seem to be in the minority though in that I found nothing magical about using vinyl, I didn't feel more connected to the music, and I have no desire to ever go back. I guess my point is that its wrong to assume someone doesn't know the basics just because they use a controller(s), Some people (as I mentioned earlier, Kevin Saunderson, one of the 3 godfathers of techno music, falls into this group) know how to dj on wax or cd, but just prefer controllers. I feel the same way as I started on vinyl and have no desire to go back and advocate that a person should learn on what they feel comfortable learning on. If you are a hip hop DJ then I would say get yourself turntables and you chosen DVS because you just can't be a proper hip hop DJ scratching on a controller. The 3 things that made up the hip hop culture in the beginning were the MC, breakdancing, and the DJ. CDj and jogwheel scratching is made to emulate scratching on a turntable, beatmatching has nothing to do with the turntable. The essence of hip hop is in the turntables so its just a must. Other than that, I see no reason why a new DJ that has never Djed ever in his life should learn the old fashioned way. Its pointless. Should I learn to ride a horse before I learn to drive a car because thats the old fashioned way and it takes skill to ride a horse and anyone can push a pedal to make to go? How would learning the old fashion way connect you to the music more and why would it? Its like saying watching tv on an old 13" tv will connect you more to the tv show than watching it on a new flat screen. The show is still the same show. The music is the same, the song doesn't magically become a better song because you are manipulating a 12" platter rather than a jog wheel or hitting a button. Djing is about THE MUSIC not about the tools you use. I understand Sigma's point because I know what its like to DJ on turntables, I know whats its like to get a new record, drop the needle, hear the faint crackle before the songs plays. Its a different feeling than getting an mp3 which can be 1 out of 50 I just downloaded, playing it for a few seconds and then on to the next 1. But for someone new who will never know that, never have anything to compare it to will not be a better DJ because they learned the old fashion way to beatmatch.
Werner Bile 13.11.2012	Originally Posted by DJSigma Arguments like this are very common in these debates, but they're flawed. Learning to mix manually is the equivalent of the kid learning the basics of mathematics, not learning to use a slide rule, because learning to mix manually isn't dependent on buying some old-fashioned piece of gear - it can be done on turntables (which some would consider the equivalent of the slide rule, lol), but you can do it with the very latest CD decks and controllers too. Also, I have given tangible reasons why it's beneficial to learn to DJ "the old fashioned way" first, while I can believe of no solid reasons why a kid would benefit from learning to use a slide rule. There's 2 excuses for not learning the basics properly: - 1. Laziness. 2. Genuinely feeling that learning A or B are no longer required now that X or Y exist, but that's addressed by my previous post. You don't absolutely have to do it, but the reason I recommend it is because I believe it makes a DJ well-rounded and I believe it potentially offers them a way to DJ that gives them a greater connection to what they're doing, which in turn potentially leads to DJing being more enjoyable. I don't recommend that people do it because I'm stuck in the past and I'm certainly not saying that DJs have to go out and buy a pair of 1200s and a few crates of vinyl. I wasn't attempting in invalidate your point, just expand upon it in a general way. You don't have to tell me about learning the basics, I used vinyl for 10 years before switching to all digital. I seem to be in the minority though in that I found nothing magical about using vinyl, I didn't feel more connected to the music, and I have no desire to ever go back. I guess my point is that its wrong to assume someone doesn't know the basics just because they use a controller(s), Some people (as I mentioned earlier, Kevin Saunderson, one of the 3 godfathers of techno music, falls into this group) know how to dj on wax or cd, but just prefer controllers.
Trista Karle 13.11.2012	Practice is not same as pre planned
Shonda Soulier 13.11.2012	Originally Posted by Patch This thread sucks balls big time. /thread I second this.
Cassidy Galindez 13.11.2012	I don't understand the beef with pre-planned and rehearsed routines is... Are DJs now supposed to have the midas touch and just magically do everything perfectly without practise? Or are you saying practise does not equate to rehearsing?
Trista Karle 14.11.2012	The issue is a lot of people that use sync can't tell by eat something's not right... There was a video posted here and someone asked about an effect used by the Dj in the video at a huge festival... I could not watch as the guy playing to a crowd if 20k people was using sync and the tracks were not matched or in time through the entire clip. This is my beef with controllerists is yes that's fancy finger drumming cue point juggling but if its not right it doesn't matter how dramatic your actions are it still doesn't change the sound. Also a lot of these routines are pre planned and rehearsed which really makes it less entertaining to me personally
Lina Rawie 14.11.2012	Originally Posted by MWagner That's a good point, however they also don't teach kids to us an abacus or slide rule anymore either. Arguments like this are very common in these debates, but they're flawed. Learning to mix manually is the equivalent of the kid learning the basics of mathematics, not learning to use a slide rule, because learning to mix manually isn't dependent on buying some old-fashioned piece of gear - it can be done on turntables (which some would consider the equivalent of the slide rule, lol), but you can do it with the very latest CD decks and controllers too. Also, I have given tangible reasons why it's beneficial to learn to DJ "the old fashioned way" first, while I can believe of no solid reasons why a kid would benefit from learning to use a slide rule. There's 2 excuses for not learning the basics properly: - 1. Laziness. 2. Genuinely feeling that learning A or B are no longer required now that X or Y exist, but that's addressed by my previous post. You don't absolutely have to do it, but the reason I recommend it is because I believe it makes a DJ well-rounded and I believe it potentially offers them a way to DJ that gives them a greater connection to what they're doing, which in turn potentially leads to DJing being more enjoyable. I don't recommend that people do it because I'm stuck in the past and I'm certainly not saying that DJs have to go out and buy a pair of 1200s and a few crates of vinyl.
Werner Bile 13.11.2012	Originally Posted by DJSigma It's like when kids are taught maths in school. They learn how to do the basics manually - their times tables and all that. They're not just given a calculator and told "well, we have this technology now, so there's no point teaching you how to do this stuff in your head". Just because you can do all of the basics manually it doesn't mean that you have to, but it's your choice at that point. That's a good point, however they also don't teach kids to us an abacus or slide rule anymore either.
Alberta Oberti 13.11.2012	Originally Posted by DJSigma It's like when kids are taught maths in school. They learn how to do the basics manually - their times tables and all that. They're not just given a calculator and told "well, we have this technology now, so there's no point teaching you how to do this stuff in your head". Just because you can do all of the basics manually it doesn't mean that you have to, but it's your choice at that point. Without knowing anything about math a calculator is useless as well. I agree with the statement that all auto-this and auto-that makes you a bad DJ. But one day even the sync-button DJ's that want to do more than just cross fade two records will get used to manual beat matching and syncing.
Julissa Serrone 13.11.2012	Originally Posted by DJSigma I always advocate that any DJ learns to mix "the old fashioned way" first. It means that you can DJ on pretty much any gear that has pitch controls. It means you can mix with another DJ where you have 2 separate setups. It helps you to get to know your music and gear . You may also find it a fun and more rewarding way to mix, because you get a particular connection to what you're doing that you just don't get when computers/software are replacing a large part of what you do - that is something that people who never try will never understand. It's like when kids are taught maths in school. They learn how to do the basics manually - their times tables and all that. They're not just given a calculator and told "well, we have this technology now, so there's no point teaching you how to do this stuff in your head". Just because you can do all of the basics manually it doesn't mean that you have to, but it's your choice at that point. Well said. +100 on every point.
Brunilda Kora 13.11.2012	This thread sucks balls big time. Originally Posted by Sigma It's like when kids are taught maths in school. They learn how to do the basics manually - their times tables and all that. They're not just given a calculator and told "well, we have this technology now, so there's no point teaching you how to do this stuff in your head". Just because you can do all of the basics manually it doesn't mean that you have to, but it's your choice at that point. /thread
Shayne Kohtz 13.11.2012	Originally Posted by DJSigma I always advocate that any DJ learns to mix "the old fashioned way" first. It means that you can DJ on pretty much any gear that has pitch controls. It means you can mix with another DJ where you have 2 separate setups. It helps you to get to know your music and gear . You may also find it a fun and more rewarding way to mix, because you get a particular connection to what you're doing that you just don't get when computers/software are replacing a large part of what you do - that is something that people who never try will never understand. It's like when kids are taught maths in school. They learn how to do the basics manually - their times tables and all that. They're not just given a calculator and told "well, we have this technology now, so there's no point teaching you how to do this stuff in your head". Just because you can do all of the basics manually it doesn't mean that you have to, but it's your choice at that point. That's a pretty good analogy at the end to be fair. I can (not very well tbh) mix "the old fashioned way". I can beatmatch (I don't believe this is a difficult thing at all), but it takes the fun away for me. It feels like too much of a chore, particularly with vinyl as there's a time limit on getting it right & it ends up just leading to utter frustration if you can't quite get the track you want to play next to match up nicely with the current one. It ends up with just being happy enough that the two tracks are playing in time & not actually getting the next track to blend in nicely, or at the right point, but simply getting it to blend in on beat. I understand that shitloads of practice can overcome this, but I'd rather put shitloads of practice into making my mixes sound really good, not into lining up BPMs. So, I can do it manually at an absolute push, if I really really had to, but I'd rather not. I'd rather let the software deal with the basic beatmatching & leave me to deal with actually making the mix sound good.
Lina Rawie 13.11.2012	Originally Posted by ad357 I'm not exactly saying that turntables & vinyl are outdated but there is newer, easier to use, more capable gear out there, so what if people want to learn on that & use that as oppose to going for the most difficult option when there's really no need? I always advocate that any DJ learns to mix "the old fashioned way" first. It means that you can DJ on pretty much any gear that has pitch controls. It means you can mix with another DJ where you have 2 separate setups. It helps you to get to know your music and gear . You may also find it a fun and more rewarding way to mix, because you get a particular connection to what you're doing that you just don't get when computers/software are replacing a large part of what you do - that is something that people who never try will never understand. It's like when kids are taught maths in school. They learn how to do the basics manually - their times tables and all that. They're not just given a calculator and told "well, we have this technology now, so there's no point teaching you how to do this stuff in your head". Just because you can do all of the basics manually it doesn't mean that you have to, but it's your choice at that point.
Tatum Ansaldo 13.11.2012	Originally Posted by ad357 The guy driving a rally car round a track can't drive a Formula 1 car. Unless he's Kimi Raikonnen
Shayne Kohtz 13.11.2012	Originally Posted by lucidstrings Words from a vinyl purists who mixes with a ns6 and itch and has no problems throwing down and dropping vinyl when needed... Something 85% of the members here can not do which is why there is controller hatred. 1. Dropping vinyl is rarely actually needed. It's nice, but not a necessity. 2. The guy driving a rally car round a track can't drive a Formula 1 car. Does that make him a shit racing driver? Edit - I realise you didn't say that someone who can't mix on vinyl is shit, but to put it another way, should people be hating on the rally driver because he can't drive an F1 car? Or say, hating on the F1 driver who can drive a 2012 F1 car but wouldn't be able to get a 1980s one round the first corner? Should he go back & learn how to use the outdated 1980s F1 car just to "keep it real"? Of course not. Why do DJs believe like that then? I'm not exactly saying that turntables & vinyl are outdated but there is newer, easier to use, more capable gear out there, so what if people want to learn on that & use that as oppose to going for the most difficult option when there's really no need?
Latoria Kavulich 12.11.2012	Originally Posted by lucidstrings Also want to add a lot of controller djs spend more time looking at the screen then not so do DVS djs my setup my laptop is off to the side only time I look at it is to spot a track and that's it this I know drives vinyl purists crazy seen a kid looking at a screen for 2 hours or the laptop right in front of them. This annoys the shit out of me To defend controllers when I had a weekly show on a now very popular Internet or used to be station half the hows I'd use cdjs or vinyl or a controller and most people could not tell Yep get that laptop away from you!
Latoria Kavulich 12.11.2012	^ i like this man.
Shonda Soulier 12.11.2012	I don't really have to worry about this. I play in small bars now...my club days are over. I have steady gigs that pay a few hundred for about 4 hours of music. I can count on one hand how many people have come up and given me grief for using a controller. So I violently stab them 11 or 12 times with a shiv, then kick the body under the booth. Problem solved, but as many have pointed out, the S4 shows bloody fingerprints like a motherf*cker.
Erica Charvet 12.11.2012	Originally Posted by Shishdisma In the above statement, you acknowledge controllers as not industry level gear, but in the below statement, you insinuate that there isnt a measurable difference between controllers and TTs/CDJs... No... in the above statement I acknowledge the Mixtrack Pro could not be considered industry quality gear. No... in the below statement, I "insinuate" that they both control software. So looking down on people who use controllers is totally hypocritical. It's a purely technical detail that you have wrong. Like I said, I know exactly what you mean. If you must look down on DJ's, look down on them for their poor skills... Not the fact that they use tactile gear to control software just like you do.
Trista Karle 11.11.2012	Also want to add a lot of controller djs spend more time looking at the screen then not so do DVS djs my setup my laptop is off to the side only time I look at it is to spot a track and that's it this I know drives vinyl purists crazy seen a kid looking at a screen for 2 hours or the laptop right in front of them. This annoys the shit out of me To defend controllers when I had a weekly show on a now very popular Internet or used to be station half the hows I'd use cdjs or vinyl or a controller and most people could not tell
Trista Karle 11.11.2012	If tl;dr skip to last paragraph Sorry but umm issue is YouTube a controller video garbage garbage garbage hell I've stopped watching some shows because of the god awfulness of quality mixing... I'm sorry it's true I'm tires of hearing poorly mixed shit from people using sync and beatgrids it's no good try dropping a record on beat bet they can't fuck I know a lot of djs that don't have the confidence to mix with their gain half way up on a channel and let go of the record on beat... As far a controller quality most are horrible but I've owned a ns6 for a bit now and it is solid as can be and feels more sturdy then a cdj1000. I've been djing for a long time as a hobby have used about any piece of gear known to man and to be frank about it garbage djs have always existed but most the time they got better from scrutiny of their peers. With controllers we have a generation of people that are terrible and believe they are good and don't get the scrutiny because f YouTube... Watch any controller video and their is almost always poorly used effects off sync and bad queuing not in time trashy dressed no skilled beat mashed also known as poorly organized skill. I by no means am a pro Dj but I mix 2 to 6 hours a week and have for many years never using sync or quant or a beat grid know vinyl purists who respect my skill because we grew up mixing vinyl an although I do not mix vinyl as often as I turn on itch I still will throw some wax down when we are around it. Cdjs in my mind still aren't what vinyl is... Words from a vinyl purists who mixes with a ns6 and itch and has no problems throwing down and dropping vinyl when needed... Something 85% of the members here can not do which is why there is controller hatred. Sorry if I offended anyone
Roseanna Signorini 11.11.2012	Originally Posted by ad357 S4 -
Lina Rawie 11.11.2012	Originally Posted by kadeunit In the end it doesnt matter if you are using a 200$ controller or a 1500$ one... its all about how you use it. It does matter, otherwise nobody would ever buy the $1,500 one, lol.

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