how can I get better latency on xp mc
how can I get better latency on xp mc Posted on: 18.03.2009 by Rosina Walberg Ok so I got some new parts to make a small dj computer... y? well I dont trust vista and dont have the money for a mac. Anyways here is my pc specs:-Win XP Media Center sp3 -AMD Athlon 64 X2 5400 Brisbane 2.8GHz Black Edition -Mushkin ddr2 1066 4gb -ASUS M3A78-CM AM2+/AM2 AMD 780V Micro ATX AMD Motherboard -LG 22X DVD | |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 20.03.2009 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
People are buying brand new Dell Studios and zapping Vista as soon as the lappy is out of the box. Ok for people with their own registered copy of XP though ! |
| Rosina Walberg 19.03.2009 |
Originally Posted by RSDJMoniker
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| Diogo Dj Dragão 20.03.2009 |
the MIDI driver in 64 vista sp1 has been specifically designed with performance, jitter, and latency in mind
I'm certainly happy that you're home studio is doing well with Vista, but understand that much like the people who get on TV and tell us that they lost 100lbs eating SlimFast, your results are NOT typical. And anyone who spends 30 minutes searching Google or talking to a studio engineer can corroborate this fact. As far as DPC latency goes, if you're getting lower DPC in Vista, it's because you didn't tweak your XP machine. I can spend 10 minutes tweaking my Boot Camped MBP or Dell Inspiron and take it from an every day driver to double digit DPC. Let me see that kind of DPC on your Vista machine. Until all of our DJ applications and device drivers are WRITTEN for 64bit, there isn't a performance benefit going to a 64bit OS. And in the case of Vista specifically, it's almost always a detriment. |
| Yuonne Cauthron 20.03.2009 | Again, i'm really trying to narrow the 64-bit discussion down to just a question of MIDI, which is where I see the biggest performance gains. (the MIDI driver in 64 vista sp1 has been specifically designed with performance, jitter, and latency in mind) The reduction in pre-software problems is astounding. While you may not see a performance increase in traktor itself, you WILL see an overall reduction in latency/jitter, if your MIDI controller sees less latency/jitter OS side, right? Less congestion as well thanks to a faster pipe to that processor. So while you MIGHT run into higher DPC latency(I experience less in 64-bit), you'll still still end up with a net gain with a jitter/latency reduction. |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 20.03.2009 | But again, even with your caveat you're talking about optimizations that need to be programmed towards. If the application you're running doesn't specifically take advantage of them, you see no increase. Using multicore as an example, MANY people saw performance drops when they went from a P4 based computer to a C2D based machine because even though the C2D was multicore, each core was clocked lower (as was the mainboard's FSB). When combined with the fact that the application didn't specifically take advantage of multicore hardware, performance suffered. And when you add to that the fact that Vista is overall less efficient than XP when it comes to most tasks, you end up with a net loss in performance. Of course, if you're running a DAW that is written to take advantage of a 64bit OS and with Windows audio in mind (like Sonar), then the benefits are clear. But the promise of audio engine optimizations in Vista (like WaveRT) still haven't been adopted by many developers. If you are able to pick only programs that were written for a 64bit OS, run hardware with 64bit drivers (digitally signed), and turn of all the eye candy and unnecessary crap (like Aero), then it's possible to see a net gain in performance using a 64bit OS. |
| Yuonne Cauthron 20.03.2009 | The advantages I discussing the advantage of purely 64-bit, not neccessarially vista. And you absolutely WILL see advantages even in software that has not been optimized for 64-bit operating systems. x64 has more registers(instead of 8, it's got 16: wow!), and a better FPU design. I.E: you're missing clock cycles, sometimes up to 1000 per second by having poor memory registration in 32-bit. Why does this make a difference for us using MIDI? It should be clear, if the MIDI driver is poorly designed, it's missing clock cycles, which means added latency and jitter (because sometimes it WONT miss those cycles) Floating point math is done much more intelligently on a 64-bit operating system, EVEN on a 32-bit application. which means even better multi-core support, and better MIDI implimentation. Also for those of us using DSP/VSTs...lets not even get into how awesome this is. It is VERY possible to see up to a 30% increase in performance from simply moving to a 64-bit operating system. While this is not consistent and across the board. There is a reason why I finally bit the bullet and converted my entire studio over. |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 20.03.2009 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
People are buying brand new Dell Studios and zapping Vista as soon as the lappy is out of the box. Ok for people with their own registered copy of XP though ! |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 20.03.2009 | You're not going to see ANY advantage to running Vista (any flavor) if the developers don't take advantage of it. The Traktor developers have stated on the record that they currently don't. And there's nothing in Vista that makes MIDI processing any better than XP. Multi core optimization is also a per application thing. And while Vista is certainly more scalable than XP when it comes to utilizing more cores, right now there aren't any processors that tax XP in this regard - let alone Vista. So we are not likely to see the fruits of this kind of optimization until the successor to Windows 7 comes along. And at their cores, Vista is MUCH more bloated than XP. According to InfoWorld's benchmarking results, even when Vista is "stripped to the bone, with every new UI enhancement turned off and every new background service disabled, Vista is a good 40 percent slower than XP at a variety of business productivity tasks". You need twice the computer to run Vista smoothly as you do XP - that's not at all what I would call efficient. And then there are the well known and documented audio problems in Vista. The MMCSS service is a total mess - throttling network speeds whenever there is audio or video playback. But guess what happens when you're running a studio and recording to / playing back from a network drive (that ProTools has given it's OK to as a valid audio drive)? That's right, kids, it chokes. Thanks Vista (this is the main reason I rolled my Vista 64 quad core recording computer back to XP - all is well now). So I can't recommend Vista for any real-time, mission critical work - especially if it's audio related. The only time I would recommend Vista is if you're running software that is fully 64bit optimized and can address a metric fuck-ton of RAM (3D modeling comes to mind). In that case, it's really a decent option. But for audio work, Vista is a pig. |
| Yuonne Cauthron 20.03.2009 | Again, we should note. 'only for the savvy' ^_~ On a personal note: Every aspect of my DAW is showing noted improvement though (from DPC, to Jitter/latency, to performance, to memory allocation, etc.), so I personally can't complain, haha. ------------- back to the original topic, one thing is to try is to have a dual boot of two different versions of MCE. (I do this pretty consistently) One that's tweaked for live performance, and the other that's tweaked for everyday use. In the live performance one, turn off the media center, don't install the wireless card at all, if it's an amd, don't install cool and quiet, etc. basically it's an opportunity to only install the things you NEED. remember the more drivers that run, the more you're running the risk of something conflicting and causing a DPC or Jitter issue. |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 20.03.2009 | I have to echo nem0nics post he really is spot on. This has been debated a lot over at N.I. The amount of people posting about ACPI problems are increasing all the time. |
| Yuonne Cauthron 20.03.2009 | Nemonic is right on the money. The only real advantage you're going to consistently see is MIDI processing, which is outside any of the pieces of software you use. And of course if you "tweak" your operating system then vista tweaks are far far different. However, it should be noted that Multi-core processor support is FAR better inside Vista than in XP, and even more so in 64-bit. So while that fancy quad-core laptop you've got is wasted in XP, in vista it can actually take advantage of that multi-core action. edit: I should also mention DPC problems that used to happen with a wireless connection/driver and audio/usb are no longer present in Vista. |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 20.03.2009 | Right now, if you're using Traktor, going 64bit doesn't give you anything over a 32bit counterpart. Traktor can't currently address larger amounts of RAM, and has no specific 64bit optimizations. You can see the Traktor developers talk about this in the "On the Record #8" thread in the NI community
s. So we know that there are no benefits to using Vista 64 if you're using Traktor. But at least there's no drawbacks, right? Wrong. Besides the issues that RSDJ mentions, there is also the lack of options to tweak and optimize the OS. This is especially true when it comes to DPC optimization. One of the major offenders is the lack of control over Vista's Power Management options. There's nothing like SpeedSwitchXP XP for Vista, so you're left to the built in Power Schemes, which aren't nearly as granular. Overall, DPC tweaking is a big part of getting that perfect audio computer, and in this regard Vista doesn't perform as well as XP. There are also more inter-related services in Vista than in XP, so service tweaking is much more limited than in XP. And dealing with ACPI issues is next to impossible in Vista. |
| Yuonne Cauthron 19.03.2009 | I am, actually! I believe everyone should move over to 64-bit. It's more stable, it's faster, and MIDI jitter/latency drops significantly. However it takes a tech-savvy mind to navigate the hurdles of jumping onto a ship that not really everyone (including developers) is ready for. And like I said I'd recommend vista 64 over xp 64 any day. While I had a mostly seamless transition in my studio to ALL 64-bit I still had some hiccups and snags that I had to do some creative problem solving on. And that's just vista 64. xp 64 has far far less drivers and compatability, and is built with the ingenuity and ease of use as a rube goldberg machine. so...end of story? Go vista 64 or stick with XP-MCE. I'm just saying vista 64 reduces latency/jitter, but it's not quite ready for the non savvy user. If you've got the brains, vista 64 sure has the brawn! |
| Rosina Walberg 19.03.2009 |
Originally Posted by RSDJMoniker
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| Yuonne Cauthron 19.03.2009 | Well, plain and simple a lot of software can have trouble with 64-bit. Especially XP-64. You'll be hard pressed to find drivers etc. More likely you'll find vista 64 compatability than xp 64. Going 64-bit can be quite the headache. drivers, software, struggling with VSTs, etc. |
| Rosina Walberg 19.03.2009 |
Originally Posted by RSDJMoniker
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| Yuonne Cauthron 19.03.2009 | I'm going to be discussing latency at length here soon. one thing I can mention is that if you've got the guts, go 64-bit. |
| Rosina Walberg 19.03.2009 | so I dont have my PA sys here at home (its in storage) but i decided to try my stuff with none other than my home theater sys and the damn audio is delayed which makes it very difficult to beatmatch. I checked traktor and it reports a audio latency of 5.5ms. I have as you may know an Audio Kontrol 1 sound card. Also traktor shows 2 of my card as follow: Audio Kontrol 1 - were I cant adjust the latency from traktor but instead in the card settings itstself and... Audio Kontrol 1 1/2(2 in, 4 out) and with that one i can adjust the latency within traktor, but with either one sound is very delayed coming out the card but not the heaphones. any thoughts? is it the home theater? or the card and software? |
| Rosina Walberg 18.03.2009 | Ive done a lot of tweaks and I mean the computer is ok but I would like to have a lower latency. This pc is gonna be only for dj and video editing (youtube) other than that I got installed pdf reader and itunes. I havent tried asio4all Ive been using the latest drivers for the AK1. Im also using the internal VC, I got an old pci-e a nvidia 6600gt should I use that card instead of the integrated one? Imma try to look into the services more in depth and check that other link for more tweaks... |
| daniela klein 18.03.2009 | I swear by the Black Viper tweaks. Intended for maxing out gamer systems but applicable to music as well: http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/supertweaks.htm |
| Xavier Emanuels 18.03.2009 | Kill any driver that your not using. Kill all services that your not using. Kill any background application your not using |
| Ashirumatic DJ 19.03.2009 | Have you tried the Asio4All driver. I had problems with Latency, as well audio drops with my sytem. I cranked the buffers up. (not so good for controller response) I do this for when im running my DAW programs and producing. Drop the buffer for when I am doing the dj progs. Let me know if you are successful and find another tips to help good luck |
| Rosina Walberg 18.03.2009 |
Originally Posted by jasonj
thanks |
| Ashirumatic DJ 18.03.2009 | Here is a great tutorial on things you can do to XP to help free up processor / memory. www.tarekith.com - XPTweaks As well it helps to run an Asio sound card. |
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