Best Ableton Controller
Best Ableton Controller Posted on: 24.05.2010 by Dee Atondo Which is the best controller for Ableton (or is it even necessary)? Midi Fighter APC 20/40 Novation Launchpad | |
| juan garcia 31.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
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| Dorie Scelzo 30.05.2010 | <OT>
Originally Posted by Mudo
The FS Open I have works flawlessly. I'm just still pissed at Stanton/NI because I upgraded to a Macbook (don't regret it at all) back when I was on FS2 only to realize that there was no Universal Binary version |
| juan garcia 31.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
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| Dorie Scelzo 30.05.2010 | <OT>
Originally Posted by Mudo
The FS Open I have works flawlessly. I'm just still pissed at Stanton/NI because I upgraded to a Macbook (don't regret it at all) back when I was on FS2 only to realize that there was no Universal Binary version |
| Dorie Scelzo 01.06.2010 |
Originally Posted by Mudo
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| juan garcia 31.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
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| Dorie Scelzo 30.05.2010 | <OT>
Originally Posted by Mudo
The FS Open I have works flawlessly. I'm just still pissed at Stanton/NI because I upgraded to a Macbook (don't regret it at all) back when I was on FS2 only to realize that there was no Universal Binary version |
| Keli Vandenbergh 02.06.2010 | ... Ms. Pinky works with cdj cd control signal and Bento with some others (juansolo ie) are upgrading the basic maxforlive stuff. From the basic patch from DL pinkstah, masthalee upgrade to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVV9JdykDVk Then Juansolo and others are growing it into things like: http://www.manicmayhem.co.uk/imagez/pinky2.jpg http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/438...00519at221.png and Bento is working in time markers... DLPinkstah in vertical waveforms... If you have left the vinyl control, ok... but it is not like "other DVS" IMHO. Streamlined in which way? ... |
| Dorie Scelzo 01.06.2010 | Right…that's why I believe something like the VCM is the best option right now…scrubbing and loading tracks are the only things you still have to do with the mouse (as long as you set up clips in a way that makes sense before hand). I've heard of people using the Stanton SCS.1m to some effect, and that seems promising as well, thought I'm not sure if it actually has enough controls. I guess it would depend on how much you're willing to deal with pages and how well the thing implements them. One plus for it–though–is that it does have an integral sound card. I'm not sure I'd ever actually buy another piece of Stanton hardware, but others might want to take a look at it. I'm decently sure that I could almost immediately start using it as a drop-in replacement…the only down sides would be if there aren't center detents for the knobs labeled for EQ and Pan, that I'd have to re-believe effects, that I'm not sure Ableton can actually use its program meters, and that unless someone else figures out how to do it ('cuz I'm out of ideas), I don't believe there's a simple way to click a button and view a clip…you'd have to do that with the mouse. If they weren't so expensive or I had the disposable income sitting around, I'd consider getting one just to see if it works the way I believe it does and just return it if it doesn't work well enough. |
| Roselle Mcnaul 01.06.2010 | I'll consider Ms.Pinky when they release something a bit more streamlined. Or has CD support which I'm not sure about. Myself, I don't do scratching, but it's the hands on control that's important for me. Mainly just scrubbing, bending, etc. |
| Dorie Scelzo 01.06.2010 |
Originally Posted by Mudo
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| Keli Vandenbergh 31.05.2010 | ... mostapha if OSX recognize all the input/outputs Traktor 1.2.4 works in this way (but remember only for test purposses) And about go for Live... use pinky maxforlive patch and have all. (without cheats) ... |
| Dorie Scelzo 31.05.2010 | Mudo, that's a cool idea. I've switched to Live anyway, but it's interesting. I have my doubts about whether it'll work since the device identifies itself to the OS/Program…I'd hope that NI isn't dumb enough to fall for that. But it's interesting. Charo, I do my best to ignore it. When I have the extra money sitting around, I'm going to get rid of it and give it away. |
| juan garcia 31.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
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| Keli Vandenbergh 31.05.2010 | ... <OT> Audio & Midi Config>Aggregate device>add scratchamp>rename to AUDIO 8 DJ Traktor 1.2.4 over the net accept ANY sound card osx cappable (this is my only doubt about scratchamp 2) for timecode signal control. Try for test purposses only. Ever is better buy almost AUDIO 4 DJ. <OT> About controller for Ableton... what about ICONS? http://www.djranking s.com/2010/03/2...j-controllers/ ... |
| Rolando Justiss 31.05.2010 | Hey I'm also looking for a controller for Ableton for producing but just wondering what people recommend under $200 AUS. Had a look at a few midi keyboards and I'm not really sure what I need to be looking for in a good controller for producing in Ableton so if someone could help me out that would be much appreciated. Thanks Will. |
| Dorie Scelzo 30.05.2010 | <OT>
Originally Posted by Mudo
The FS Open I have works flawlessly. I'm just still pissed at Stanton/NI because I upgraded to a Macbook (don't regret it at all) back when I was on FS2 only to realize that there was no Universal Binary version |
| Keli Vandenbergh 30.05.2010 | ... Did you try scratchamp 2 with osx core audio "agregate device"? Maybe it works... Try before sell. ... |
| Dorie Scelzo 29.05.2010 | Thanks. I believe it's normal midi…seems to be 128-steps (don't have it in front of me) but the "Fine" control works. In Live's midi mapping, there are actually 2 signals for tempo…a gross (the slider) and a fine (the knob) (both by default and how I have it). The gross one, you can set, and I believe the fine one is set at a 3 BPM range. I don't believe it's quite as precise as a top-end CDJ, but it's plenty to beat-match. I've done sets with Ableton and my CDJs before just to see what it was like, and it works. The pitch bend buttons also work really well, but if you're used to riding a turntable's pitch slider, you could map them backwards (gross tempo on the button, fine on the fader) with no problems. It should be obvious how to do it…if not, PM me. It's a little weird to take over from another DJ because of the global/launch quantizations…you have to basically stop the set, launch in time, and pitch-bend to all hell. If you want to re-launch then you have to either be close to being in time or stop the set (i.e., press space bar) before you trigger the clip again. But it's not a big deal as long as they aren't specifically trying to screw you. And I'm using an FS Open interface (link). It works fine, as it's actually a decent-quality 6-in, 6-out 24/96 FW sound card with a headphone amp built in. I'm looking into upgrading to something different (mostly 'cuz looking at the thing still brings back sour memories of FS2 and what happened when I switched to OS X), but I'm not finding anything that seems functionally better than a Focusrite Sapphire 6 USB until it costs a LOT more than I have sitting around. Some of the numbers (SNR for the DAC, specifically) worry me, though. And I do have an odd workflow, I've recently found out. I'm one of very few people I know who's live set doesn't have any music in it when I start it up, who's actually dragging in each song. I don't click inside tracks for cues/scrubbing. I don't use dummy clips. I mostly don't layer effects. I don't do mashups. Mostly, I was almost happy spinning with CDs, but…I edited every track anyway into versions without breakdowns, versions with passages extended, etc.. Now, I do what I need to prep things and those decisions happen right before the change. It doesn't work so well for a lot of the Trance I spin, but it works great for the Techno and a lot of the Prog/Electro/Tech House. And there's nothing actually stopping me from just playing my edits straight through either using follow actions or rendering them into a new audio file like I used to with CDs. For me, it's just about setting up so that I can make the decisions later and at least do something while the track is playing instead of just standing around waiting to beat match again. The sad thing is that I could get most of the functionality of Live from Itch and a Xone:dx…the differences are pretty small. But the VCM was cheaper and available when I had the money sitting around to upgrade. I'm happy with my choice. |
| Roselle Mcnaul 29.05.2010 | That pretty much answers all my concerns, frankly your mapping makes more sense with respect to the work flow aspect. Is the tempo slider your typical 7-bit MIDI signal?, I'm kinda hoping that the stepping on it is higher resolution so it can be used to more fine resolution when working with someone who is using a typical club setup (i.e: taking over a booth from a CDJ user, etc). Out of curiosity what sound interface are you using with it?. Great info so far dude, bookmarking that post for future reference |
| Dorie Scelzo 29.05.2010 | Here's how I have mine mapped…delete this post if it's OT: Unlabeled controls don't do anything. 1+2 - Effects controls: Slect Bank, Slect Effect, Param 1, Param 2 for each of 2 identical Audio Effect Racks in sends. The "Track View" buttons for these 2 actually look at the Audio Effect Racks in the Return Tracks. I have the actual return tracks hidden. 3 - Buttons are clip launchers, knobs are 4-band Full Kill EQs with 0dB at far right. 4 - I forgot 4. 5 - Gain for channels 1, 2, 3, 4 6 - Effects Dry/Wet. Getting this functionality requires a hack. For each audio channel and send, you make another audio channel that duplicates its signal and reverse the phase…then, map the controller so that turning up "Send A" also turns up the channel volume for that track/effect combinations negating signal…turns the sends into Dry/Wet knobs. 6a - Effect dry/wet range…up is dry/wet, down is dry/almost-wet. These controls actually change the track volume of Group tracks for the negating channels from -3dB to 0dB…that way full wet isn't always full wet. it's amazing how much this smooths out some effects. 7 - Hi-Pass cutoff and resonance controls. They're set so that F all the way down turns the filter off. 8 - each track's buttons are "Cue, View Clip, View track" 9 - Stop and Play buttons. Stop stops all clips in that track, Play plays the clip in the selected scene. 10 - Low and High mid-boosts with a very short delay for each channel. 11 - Chain Select (chooses between patches), Track Play, and Volume for my Synths…most of them are Analog patches, I believe one is an Operator patch. 12 - No effect, Track play, and volume for my drum machine. 13 - Looping, reassigned to be clip-specific. 14 - All of these controls are assigned to a dummy Audio Effect Rack that doesn't do anything. I use a hardware knob to control my cue level, I don't want master volume or pan, and the buttons are actually master play and record, which I also don't want to bump. I can't believe of anything I want to do with them right now. 15 - Tempo section is basically as default, except the gross tempo slider only goes 126 to 150. 16 - the Crossfader actually affects my headphone signal…to the right is monitoring the master, left is basically split cue with the cue signal being based on the cue buttons in section 8. I don't use the crossfader or CF assignment to mix at all. 17 - Scene selection. When you press it, nothing happens…by default, pressing it launches the selected scene. 18 - Volume knobs top out at 0dB, not +6dB as per default. And the screenshot. It makes for a very clean and straightforward setup. The red channels monitor effects channels for level or are the negating groups, blue channels are decks, pink channels are synth and drum machine channels, and the grey channel has to do with my monitoring setup. There are also 4 return tracks (2 for effects, 2 for my monitoring setup) that are hidden. The clip slots that i have direct control over are color-coded (in the master channel), and the scene knob gives me access to the rest of them. |
| Dorie Scelzo 29.05.2010 | The VCM is amazing, and it's a steal for $300 to the extent that I'd bet it was damaged or some kind of scam. Do local pickup only; pay with a check you can stop payment on; and get contact info in case something goes wrong. It's a great controller…as I'm sure you can see. It's basically a maven with no audio, a horizontal layout, and more controls. My gripes: 1 - I like mixing with 4 decks, not 6. And I like the channels I use to be closer to the "master" section. It also only works properly with the clip/track view buttons when it's set up as a Control Surface (not raw midi). So, I have 2 dummy channels that don't do anything on the left of my live set. Actually, they monitor effects levels, but that's irrelevant. 2 - It doesn't have any endless encoders. That's not a huge gripe, since I wouldn't use them for many things. I could see using them to skip through tracks to make sure what I just dragged in was the track I thought it was, but…can't do it with the VCM. And scrubbing the track with the mouse works fine for now. 3 - Clip launching is actually fine. The "Scene" knob on the bottom right selects scenes, and the play buttons actually fire the selected scene for each track (not just firing scenes). This behavior isn't apparent when looking at Live when it's not in midi-map mode. There's an extra play button near the status-display area for each track, and when mapped it launches the selected scene for that track. I have mine set so that each track's EQ kill, Solo, and Mute buttons actually fire 5 specific scenes in that track, and I'd prefer 8 of them…but it's fine. That's actually the same way clip launching works on the e-noxier thing. At least…it has the correctly-labeled controls to set it up that way. 4 - I hate the way the VCM and the APC-40's "effects control" sections work. They follow selection. As a result, mapping can get a bit funky…and you might not be controlling what you thought you were (turning down an EQ instead of an effect parameter, for example). I defeat that by locking them to a rack that doesn't do anything and then just assigning the knobs as I see fit (they actually do 2 different mid-boosts for each of the 4 tracks I use while the knobs for channels 1 and 2 on the VCM control my effects). Making the control surface work that way makes it more versatile, but the VCM has enough controls already…it doesn't need to work that way. 5 - The "EQ" and "Pan" knobs don't have center detents. Because they're midi, it makes it really hard for "0" to be straight up, as you'll never get it quite right. As a result, my EQs are at 0 when hard right, which is a bit limiting. I've gotten over it. I basically only ever boost mids anyway, so I just do that somewhere else. That's probably the least-intuitive part of how I have it set up. 6 - By default, the loop controls affect Live's master transport. It's easy to re-map them to do clip-specific looping, but it's not intuitive and you have to select the clip you want to control loops for. No controller does it better without a Max4Live patch, so I don't complain. 7 - No meters on the hardware…I'd like Digital PPMs on each channel if I were designing it from scratch, but I'm not sure if Live will actually support that. I look at the laptop enough that it's not an issue, just not ideal. No controller has this feature to my knowledge. 8 - No button on the controller sends a momentary signal…they're all note-on messages when they're pressed. I don't care, but some people might. 9 - By default, it has controls for Master Volume, Master Pan, and Return A and B Pan. These controls are USELESS and DANGEROUS. They need to be mapped either to a dummy Audio Effect Rack that doesn't do anything or to another function. Panning is obviously useless (though someone probably uses them on the Return tracks), but the reason Live's Master Volume control is useless is that it actually sets Live's Output Bit Depth, the way all DAWs do…it should be set at 0dB or you're just giving away audio quality, so having the control there is pointless for DJ applications. 10 - Because the midi implementation is so simple, some controls are weird to map if you want to–for example–limit the range of the tempo slider while keeping the fine control as-is. The way the scene knob works is actually an odd choice IMO, but it works just fine (it sends different note-on messages in each direction, which are mapped to "scene up" and "scene down." they probably do that so they can have it click). 11 - As far as I can tell, the buttons only have one color of LED behind them, so you can't use the 5 EQ Kill/Solo/Mute buttons per channel to launch clips (as I do) and have them give feedback of whether a clip is present, only whether it's playing or not. I believe that's about it. All-in-all, I'm happy with it. I don't like pages; I don't like shift buttons; and I love having obviously related controls grouped in a sensical way…and the VCM fits that bill better than anything else out there. A set of 3-4 Faderfox LD2s would give similar (and in some ways, more) functionality…but I'd get lost in a sea of identical-looking push encoders. And they'd cost more unless you're willing to deal with pages. |
| Roselle Mcnaul 29.05.2010 | Yeah, they really should update it with some video demonstrations, in my opinion it looks great but like you said, alot of gaps in explanation as to its layout and engineering. You own a VCM-600, what do you like it?, or any big gripes?. Theres one being sold locally on craigslist for $300 and was considering picking it up, my only real issue is that the launch features seem to be per row, not a grid or anything like the Launchpad or APC40. What's your experience with it? |
| Dorie Scelzo 29.05.2010 | I have. I don't like the layout as well. The effects sends aren't in line with the channels, the effects section doesn't make much sense to me because of how I use Live (4 effect on buttons? 2 sends? WTF?), the placement of the pitch controls would make things hard to use without bumping them, gain only on the first 5 chanels, no effects sends for channel 6, mixture of rotary and linear effects sends, the "rec" button seems useless (why wouldn't it be near the nonexistant transport controls…channel-specific recording doesn't work that way), what does the LCD do?……… It just leads to a lot of questions. Either the people who make it use Live very differently than I do (and I'm not sure I like their layout for re-mapping to use the way I'd want to) or they haven't actually used Live. |
| Roselle Mcnaul 29.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
http://www.djranking s.com/community /sho...ighlight=Maven Sort of along the same lines, it's basically like a copy of Sasha's Maven mixer. I'm not sure if or when it will be released, but it's fairly close to the VCM-600 in many respects. |
| Dorie Scelzo 29.05.2010 | IMHO, it depends on what you want to do with it. I believe that just about everything except the uc33e and the vcm-600 are basically worthless for the way I wanted to mix with it. If you're using a lot of dummy clips or are okay with having controls spread out all over the place, the APC-40 is cheaper and a decent option. Though apparently it's not bus powered, which is BS. If you want to look into the Faderfox stuff, they're good if you're okay with something that small. But they also get expensive quickly. If I were going to build a faderfox-based system, I'd just get 3 LD2s and be done with it…and leave them almost mapped as default, just leaving 1 of them assigned to each "deck." The best thing you can do when shopping for controllers is to believe about what you really want to control and how you want to control it. Then, draw our your ideal controller on paper (or photoshop or whatever) and start shopping…see what's closest. |
| Dalton Billson 26.05.2010 | Use an APC40 and route Maschine into Ableton. |
| Roselle Mcnaul 25.05.2010 | The production suite and hardware quality on the Maschine is killer, I just believe that it's Ableton support is sub-par. It's not really a big deal considering that it isn't supposed to excel in that anyway (just more like a bonus feature), but anyone who is considering buying one based on it's Ableton functionality will probably be disappointed. |
| Dee Atondo 25.05.2010 | Thanks for the tips. $600 is a lot to pay for a beat pad. I heard good things about the Maschine software, but learning Ableton seems way more worthwhile. APC 20/40 it is. |
| Roselle Mcnaul 25.05.2010 | Don't do it. It CAN work as an Ableton controller, but I tried it first hand with my buddy's Maschine, and here is what I found: 1.) No information feedback on the LCD panels which tell you which clips you're currently looking at via the Maschine. 2.) No red rectangle which states so on the screen, unlike the APC20 and APC40, or Launchpad. It's hoooorrible for navigating around sets. Plain and simple you'll get lost. The idea is very worthy, and over time might turn into something cool, but in my opinion, if you can't coherently navigate around in Ableton, you're already in for trouble. |
| Dee Atondo 25.05.2010 | I was leaning towards the APC 20/40 but the fact that it is not powered by USB and it is one-dimensional (designed to be only used w/ Ableton). Maschine seems like a nice albeit expensive choice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9RC0lkJsto |
| Ola Fornwalt 25.05.2010 | I would go launchpad! |
| Random X 25.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by Str8upDrew
Dannyboy, my partner in crime was more partial to a BCF, but in the end he settled for a BCR. (Tim Exile's "Finger" vid also helped a lot!) When faders and buttons are involved, look for APC20/40, UC33e+launchpad/MIDIfighter. I still have to see/find a controller that offers as much bang for buck as the BCR does. To put it into Tim Exile's words:
...this is the new 909...
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| Neal Rayome 25.05.2010 | I believe it depends on how you want to use Ableton. If you're using it for production, I believe an APC 20 or 40 is the best way to go. If you want to use Ableton for DJ'ing (with separate EQ knobs for every separate channel for example) I would recommend an Evolution UC-33e or if you have more money to spend, a Vestax VCM-600. I own both and I'm really happy with them. |
| Graham Frazier 25.05.2010 | I'll just paint it hot pink or something crazy like that. All kinds of people believe my Oxy8 is some kind of toy because it's neon blue. |
| Roselle Mcnaul 25.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by Str8upDrew
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| Graham Frazier 25.05.2010 | I use my launchpad with a korg nanokontrol, and love it. That with an oxygen 8, and 2 other midi keyboards (an 88 w/ velocity sens, and a 72 w/o) i find to be a pretty amazing set up. I've played piano my whole life so lots of keys are pretty essential for my style. However, i seem to crave more knobs and sliders. I believe its time for a BCR2000 & a BCF2000. |
| Roselle Mcnaul 24.05.2010 | Nope, they are powered through an ugly ass AC adapter lol. This is because of all the LED feedback which it uses, and in my opinion, kinda sucks since you have to find a plug to accomodate this bulky ass adapter lol. Still a great unit either way. The Launchpad is also considerably smaller, and more portable. My only gripe is that it lacks sliders, but thats a personal preference, and it also has controls for them - but in incremental changes, not smooth ones. |
| Dee Atondo 24.05.2010 | Are neither the APC 20 or APC 40 usb-powered? |
| Roselle Mcnaul 24.05.2010 | Honestly, the Launchpads only advantage over the APC20 is that its USB powered, which I consider to be very convenient. But with the APC20, you actually get channel sliders. Other than that, the APC20 is the best bet, unless you want the extra knobs, then use an APC40 for the premium. |
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