Do I need endless encoders?

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Do I need endless encoders?
Posted on: 22.02.2011 by Bao Dright
Hi all,

I am looking to add to my current setup. Now I am more comfortable with controller basics, I want to take things to the next level.

Having started of with a Faderfox DJ3, I have now ordered a Midi Fighter to give me more control over cue points and loops. However, while waiting for it to arrive, I decided that the addition of some more knobs would give me greater creative freedom.

I am very interested in Livid's Code (http://goo.gl/ikWza). It looks almost perfect for the extra level of control I need. My only concern is the resolution/ speed of the knobs. Ideally, I'd like to be able to make fine adjustments to certain parameters (FX, filters, pitch...) but I am unsure whether I would bump up against the 128-step limit of standard MIDI messages.

The Code uses endless encoders which I believe can send both absolute values and incremental/decremental ones. If I used increments with very low values (when used with a modifier, for example) would I be able to emulate the action of higher resolution devices? I am guessing I could but I can't be certain. Would the endless encoders give me fine control?

I also spotted a Monome knobby thing (http://goo.gl/w0tOo) which they allege is high resolution and might pair well with the MIDI Fighter. It looks interesting. The only problem is it uses OSC. It also seems very expensive for two, admittedly stylish, encoders stuck in a piece of wood. Does it offer any tangible benefits over the Code?

Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
Bao Dright
24.02.2011
Originally Posted by fleater
Not too sure what you mean there, each of the rotary pots (encoders) puts out 0-127 values and can be mapped to anything in Traktor. The only problem with The ohm is that it is shipped with some f**king amazing VJ software that I use all the time and have got solid work VJ-ing and made my dj performance far more sought after!
This is what is confusing me. In Livid's description, it says the following:

Any of the 32 endless encoders can be programmed to output MIDI CC data in either absolute or relative mode on any MIDI channel. In absolute mode, turning the knob will provide values from 0-127. In relative mode, turning to the left will alternate values between 0 and 1 to indicate a "decrease" and turning to the right will alternate values betwee 0 and 127 to indicate an "increase."

I can see how absolute mode would work, it's relative mode that has thrown me. Presumably, in this mode, the Code sends different the same note with different velocity values. In Learn mode, would Traktor make sense of the alternating values? For me, being able to use the encoders incrementally is one of its attractions.

I've read that absolute mode is best for EQ and FX, whereas relative mode is well-suited to stepping through lists and the like. Is this true? Also, some people say that endless encoders aren't good for smooth changes. If rotary encoders click as you turn them, it makes creating a controller with 32 of kinda pointless, no?

It could be that I'm expecting to make fine adjustments with a device not made for this. Basically, if EQ and FX are out then I'm barking up the wrong tree. Maybe that's why Monome's Arc costs so much!!!


@ kilobytekaushik - I agree about the SoftStep. Impressive but maybe too much function. I'll leave complex foot motions to the ballet dancers.
Brittaney Maxedon
24.02.2011
Originally Posted by inov8
Would I be right in believeing that the rotary encoders on the APC40 can't be switched between relative and absolute mode like on the Code?

To return to my original question, does Livid's use of incremental rotary encoders allow for fine control over EQ and FX values in Traktor?
Not too sure what you mean there, each of the rotary pots (encoders) puts out 0-127 values and can be mapped to anything in Traktor. The only problem with The ohm is that it is shipped with some f**king amazing VJ software that I use all the time and have got solid work VJ-ing and made my dj performance far more sought after!
Bao Dright
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by fleater
Yes but you cannot change the midi message that each button sends, you cannot change the midi note value for each press. On the APC 40 the top left button will only ever be Note F2 midi Channel 1.
Every buton on the ohm is programmable to be either a CC or note and how to react on each pressing of that note.

Would I be right in believeing that the rotary encoders on the APC40 can't be switched between relative and absolute mode like on the Code?

To return to my original question, does Livid's use of incremental rotary encoders allow for fine control over EQ and FX values in Traktor?
Brittaney Maxedon
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by MuzicFreq
You do know that it's just a standard midi device premapped to ableton, you can map it to anything that allows midi

I guess midi chains are lost on the apc but if you dont plan on hooking up stuff that needs it then it's fine on how it is. Honestly I would be lost in a huge setup with multiple controllers on different software
Yes but you cannot change the midi message that each button sends, you cannot change the midi note value for each press. On the APC 40 the top left button will only ever be Note F2 midi Channel 1.
Every buton on the ohm is programmable to be either a CC or note and how to react on each pressing of that note.
Tatum Ansaldo
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by inov8
Hmmmm
Bao Dright
23.02.2011		From what I understand, there's no problem with the build quality of the APC40. Still, the more I compare it to the Code, the more I favour the Livid device.

As I see it, the APC40 offers a load of encoders, faders and buttons at a very competitive price point. It also has those great multicolour LEDs. That said, I have no real interest in Live (at present, if ever) and, in many ways, I prefer the cleaner, more intuitive layout of the Code. The APC40 looks kinda busy to me.

The Code also has more encoders which is what I want. I have a MIDI Fighter so I don't need the extra buttons on the Akai. Lastly, the APC40 is also far from compact. Lugging it around would be a pain.

No, I don't believe the Livid is overpriced for what it is. Though, neither is the Akai. They're both impressive devices. I just feel the Livid is a better fit with me. It has open-source credentials too. I like.

Hmmmm
Tatum Ansaldo
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by inov8
Behringer? People complain about them but I love my FCB1010. It is more versatile than foot controllers that are twice it's price. I need to properly integrate it into my Traktor workflow.
Still using an FCB1010? You need one of these!

http://www.keithmcmillen.com/softstep/overview
Stephnie Godbole
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by fleater
I own an APC40 and an Ohm64 and I can assure you that the Ohm64 is far more flexible than the APC40....
If you want to be told how to use Ableton then the APC40 is for you, if you want to do something different and flexible then the Ohm64 is a winner!

Overpriced, I believe not....
You do know that it's just a standard midi device premapped to ableton, you can map it to anything that allows midi

I guess midi chains are lost on the apc but if you dont plan on hooking up stuff that needs it then it's fine on how it is. Honestly I would be lost in a huge setup with multiple controllers on different software
Brittaney Maxedon
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by MuzicFreq
I see that Livid as an overpriced APC40 with less faders
I own an APC40 and an Ohm64 and I can assure you that the Ohm64 is far more flexible than the APC40....
If you want to be told how to use Ableton then the APC40 is for you, if you want to do something different and flexible then the Ohm64 is a winner!

Overpriced, I believe not....
Stephnie Godbole
24.02.2011		(In a ghostly voice)
~~~APC40~~~~
Bao Dright
24.02.2011
Originally Posted by fleater
Not too sure what you mean there, each of the rotary pots (encoders) puts out 0-127 values and can be mapped to anything in Traktor. The only problem with The ohm is that it is shipped with some f**king amazing VJ software that I use all the time and have got solid work VJ-ing and made my dj performance far more sought after!
This is what is confusing me. In Livid's description, it says the following:

Any of the 32 endless encoders can be programmed to output MIDI CC data in either absolute or relative mode on any MIDI channel. In absolute mode, turning the knob will provide values from 0-127. In relative mode, turning to the left will alternate values between 0 and 1 to indicate a "decrease" and turning to the right will alternate values betwee 0 and 127 to indicate an "increase."

I can see how absolute mode would work, it's relative mode that has thrown me. Presumably, in this mode, the Code sends different the same note with different velocity values. In Learn mode, would Traktor make sense of the alternating values? For me, being able to use the encoders incrementally is one of its attractions.

I've read that absolute mode is best for EQ and FX, whereas relative mode is well-suited to stepping through lists and the like. Is this true? Also, some people say that endless encoders aren't good for smooth changes. If rotary encoders click as you turn them, it makes creating a controller with 32 of kinda pointless, no?

It could be that I'm expecting to make fine adjustments with a device not made for this. Basically, if EQ and FX are out then I'm barking up the wrong tree. Maybe that's why Monome's Arc costs so much!!!


@ kilobytekaushik - I agree about the SoftStep. Impressive but maybe too much function. I'll leave complex foot motions to the ballet dancers.
Karry Sappington
24.02.2011		about the softstep, i believe its an overkill on a single thing. The ohm64 is surely the way to go; if u have the bucks n a powerful lappy to run 2 or softwares at a time.
Brittaney Maxedon
24.02.2011
Originally Posted by inov8
Would I be right in believeing that the rotary encoders on the APC40 can't be switched between relative and absolute mode like on the Code?

To return to my original question, does Livid's use of incremental rotary encoders allow for fine control over EQ and FX values in Traktor?
Not too sure what you mean there, each of the rotary pots (encoders) puts out 0-127 values and can be mapped to anything in Traktor. The only problem with The ohm is that it is shipped with some f**king amazing VJ software that I use all the time and have got solid work VJ-ing and made my dj performance far more sought after!
Bao Dright
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by fleater
Yes but you cannot change the midi message that each button sends, you cannot change the midi note value for each press. On the APC 40 the top left button will only ever be Note F2 midi Channel 1.
Every buton on the ohm is programmable to be either a CC or note and how to react on each pressing of that note.

Would I be right in believeing that the rotary encoders on the APC40 can't be switched between relative and absolute mode like on the Code?

To return to my original question, does Livid's use of incremental rotary encoders allow for fine control over EQ and FX values in Traktor?
Brittaney Maxedon
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by MuzicFreq
You do know that it's just a standard midi device premapped to ableton, you can map it to anything that allows midi

I guess midi chains are lost on the apc but if you dont plan on hooking up stuff that needs it then it's fine on how it is. Honestly I would be lost in a huge setup with multiple controllers on different software
Yes but you cannot change the midi message that each button sends, you cannot change the midi note value for each press. On the APC 40 the top left button will only ever be Note F2 midi Channel 1.
Every buton on the ohm is programmable to be either a CC or note and how to react on each pressing of that note.
Tatum Ansaldo
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by inov8
Hmmmm
Bao Dright
23.02.2011		From what I understand, there's no problem with the build quality of the APC40. Still, the more I compare it to the Code, the more I favour the Livid device.

As I see it, the APC40 offers a load of encoders, faders and buttons at a very competitive price point. It also has those great multicolour LEDs. That said, I have no real interest in Live (at present, if ever) and, in many ways, I prefer the cleaner, more intuitive layout of the Code. The APC40 looks kinda busy to me.

The Code also has more encoders which is what I want. I have a MIDI Fighter so I don't need the extra buttons on the Akai. Lastly, the APC40 is also far from compact. Lugging it around would be a pain.

No, I don't believe the Livid is overpriced for what it is. Though, neither is the Akai. They're both impressive devices. I just feel the Livid is a better fit with me. It has open-source credentials too. I like.

Hmmmm
Tatum Ansaldo
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by inov8
Behringer? People complain about them but I love my FCB1010. It is more versatile than foot controllers that are twice it's price. I need to properly integrate it into my Traktor workflow.
Still using an FCB1010? You need one of these!

http://www.keithmcmillen.com/softstep/overview
Stephnie Godbole
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by fleater
I own an APC40 and an Ohm64 and I can assure you that the Ohm64 is far more flexible than the APC40....
If you want to be told how to use Ableton then the APC40 is for you, if you want to do something different and flexible then the Ohm64 is a winner!

Overpriced, I believe not....
You do know that it's just a standard midi device premapped to ableton, you can map it to anything that allows midi

I guess midi chains are lost on the apc but if you dont plan on hooking up stuff that needs it then it's fine on how it is. Honestly I would be lost in a huge setup with multiple controllers on different software
Brittaney Maxedon
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by MuzicFreq
I see that Livid as an overpriced APC40 with less faders
I own an APC40 and an Ohm64 and I can assure you that the Ohm64 is far more flexible than the APC40....
If you want to be told how to use Ableton then the APC40 is for you, if you want to do something different and flexible then the Ohm64 is a winner!

Overpriced, I believe not....
Bao Dright
23.02.2011		The APC40 looks like a serious bit of kit. Wow. Rotary encoders too. For some reason, I thought it was way more expensive. Especially with the extra buttons and faders. Impressive. The Livid does seem overpriced in comparison.

Behringer? People complain about them but I love my FCB1010. It is more versatile than foot controllers that are twice it's price. I need to properly integrate it into my Traktor workflow.

Thanks for the useful advice. I am leaning towards that Akai now
Random X
22.02.2011
Originally Posted by tyfurious
The BCR2000 is surprisingly boss... Daft punk used it for god sake. A buddy of mine bought one because of Tekki, and I'm very jelly of him.
Hope he is still enjoying it, mate!
Stephnie Godbole
22.02.2011
Originally Posted by muffintop
fixed
well your waste of money

would be better if there was multi color LEDs for seeing more on what does what when mapped. $800 can get you better
Gilma Marchini
22.02.2011		The BCR2000 is surprisingly boss... Daft punk used it for god sake. A buddy of mine bought one because of Tekki, and I'm very jelly of him.
Random X
22.02.2011		As BCR2000 enthousiast I can only say, you can never have enough endless rotaries.
Cammy Clegg
22.02.2011
Originally Posted by muffintop
fixed
+1
Nana Mohs
23.02.2011
Originally Posted by MuzicFreq
I see that Livid as an amazing open source APC40 with less faders
fixed
Stephnie Godbole
23.02.2011		I see that Livid as an overpriced APC40 with less faders
Bao Dright
22.02.2011		Yeah , I've just been reading the software manual. Some great features. The addition of fast and slow blinking LED feedback is very appealing. I'll ask the same question on the Livid community but it's less about Code and more about the way that Traktor handles the input from endless encoders.

The Ohm64 looks sweet. I'm guessing it has pots rather than encoders, though? How does it compare to your VCM-600?
Brittaney Maxedon
22.02.2011
Originally Posted by inov8
Hi all,

I am looking to add to my current setup. Now I am more comfortable with controller basics, I want to take things to the next level.

Having started of with a Faderfox DJ3, I have now ordered a Midi Fighter to give me more control over cue points and loops. However, while waiting for it to arrive, I decided that the addition of some more knobs would give me greater creative freedom.

I am very interested in Livid's Code (http://goo.gl/ikWza). It looks almost perfect for the extra level of control I need. My only concern is the resolution/ speed of the knobs. Ideally, I'd like to be able to make fine adjustments to certain parameters (FX, filters, pitch...) but I am unsure whether I would bump up against the 128-step limit of standard MIDI messages.

The Code uses endless encoders which I believe can send both absolute values and incremental/decremental ones. If I used increments with very low values (when used with a modifier, for example) would I be able to emulate the action of higher resolution devices? I am guessing I could but I can't be certain. Would the endless encoders give me fine control?

I also spotted a Monome knobby thing (http://goo.gl/w0tOo) which they allege is high resolution and might pair well with the MIDI Fighter. It looks interesting. The only problem is it uses OSC. It also seems very expensive for two, admittedly stylish, encoders stuck in a piece of wood. Does it offer any tangible benefits over the Code?

Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
I have a Livid Instruments Ohm64 and the editor for this is makes their units really quite customiseable.
Ask a question on the Livid Instruments community , they are really very supportive of thier products (they have made custom chages to their software for me in the past), it is possible to flash the unit itself and completely change its function:eek:.

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