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First controller..Do I really need jog wheels?

Home :: General Discussion :: First controller..Do I really need jog wheels?Reply

First controller..Do I really need jog wheels? Posted on: 06.03.2013 by Elmo Haves Hello DJTT, I'm completely new to all of this and I'm looking for a low end controller to get into mixing, learning the software, finding my style, and overall just having fun as a hobby. I have a few questions about choosing a controller that I'm hoping to get some feedback on...Pardon my lack of terminology here. I'm very interested in mixing pieces of tracks with others, using samples and incorporating effects, playing with loops and so forth..Seems like this is pretty much the standard idea with the DJ controllers but I want to focus more on effects and cutting/slicing, and juggling, over just blending from song to song, and I really don't care to get into scratching...Again I don't plan to play at clubs or any kind of sponsored events, just in my own home or maybe at a friends house with a few people. Here's what I was looking at: Numark Mixtrack Pro and an Akai Professional LPD8 (promotion to get a free upgrade from Serato Intro to DJ w/ these on Numarks site right now) or a Numark Mixtrack Pro 2 Vestax VCI-100 Reloop Mixage IE Novation Twitch I like the idea of the Twitch and if I don't plan to get into scratching, do I really need jog wheels? Is the Twitch really better for what I'm looking to do? (around $300 or less budget) Any advice or other recommendations would be much appreciated! Thanks DJTT, BSudz
Pricilla Hayslett 07.03.2013	Originally Posted by loverocket I advise you to delete this post before you get pounded by many of the controllerists on this community . There are many controllerist DJ's making a great living out there. Also, you CAN get a gig if you don't know how to beatmatch. And you CAN beatmatch without jogwheels. > Love this response brother!!
Pricilla Hayslett 07.03.2013	Originally Posted by SlvrDragon50 the Traktor S2,... and it doesn't have filter knobs and it's plastic. The filters on the S2 are also the gain which you can switch to gain/filter or filter/gain with the shift button used to activate the secondary function. It works very well. As for the "plastic" it is a very durable controller. Yes over budget, though one thing to consider is that to wait and save for a controller that will suit your needs and give room to grow that is better than purchasing something else only to want another controller down the road.
Antonetta Wikel 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by loverocket DSCN0515.jpg I still have mine in a closet somewhere.
Jerica Salava 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by octostout Yeah, if you want to play at bars and stuff. Unless you're a producer, you're never getting booked in good slots at big events without jogwheels... It just isn't going to happen. and you can beatmatch without jogwheels, but almost never a reason to besides it being fun to you. Unless you're really mixing non-quantized music a whole lot, the only practical reason for beatmatching is for your integrity, and nobody's going to realize you're beatmatching with buttons, they're going to see your lack of jogwheels and be certain that you're syncing. I'm not saying any of this is good, I'm saying this is the way that it is. You make good points. Learning to carry a dance floor is #1 and production and remixing is the key to progressing from a simple DJ to a successful DJ artist. However, just because you produce a few tracks and get them on Beatport does not mean you will be be a famous DJ. I know lots of wedding DJ's who make more $$$$ than 90% of the producers on Beatport. Also, I learned to beatmatch CD's on the first CD player ever to feature pitch control. No jogs. Only pitch bend buttons. And of course, no sync. DSCN0515.jpg
Tommy Thiner 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by bsudz I just want to learn to make some awesome controllerist mixes that I personally enjoy creating and listening to, and was just wondering if the Twitch is my best bet for a controller given my budget and what I want to do here. With that being said and thats all that you want to do. You will have a lot of fun on the Twitch. Whether it be learning to incorporate loop rolls, auto looping, slicer mode, adding fx the fun will never stop.
Doreen Schurle 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by cpetticrew "Ean" Pretentious name is pretentious :P
Tommy Thiner 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by octostout besides Ian Golden "Ean"
Kathe Stump 06.03.2013	I'm a self-proclaimed controllerist. I juggle, do crazy effects chains, use acapellas, and mix on three track decks and a remix deck. I do this at every gig, and I am one of the higher-booking acts in my area. The point is that doing this stuff is not what gets you booked and should be WAAAAAAAY secondary to learning traditional DJing. DJs are there to spin dance sets, 99% of the people in the crowd don't know or care what you're doing. They judge you on how good it sounds. This is why people get away with pre-recorded sets, or 32-beat transitions and everyone believes they're great. Performance techniques in dance sets are awesome, but they should be done for yourself, and never expected to matter in anyone else's eyes. Originally Posted by loverocket There are many controllerist DJ's making a great living out there. Find me ONE person who is -NOT A PRODUCER- besides Ian Golden (who still doesn't count, because he's only well-known because of his instructional videos and DJTT) who is successful as a DJ doing only this kind of thing. Originally Posted by loverocket Also, you CAN get a gig if you don't know how to beatmatch. And you CAN beatmatch without jogwheels. Yeah, if you want to play at bars and stuff. Unless you're a producer, you're never getting booked in good slots at big events without jogwheels... It just isn't going to happen. and you can beatmatch without jogwheels, but almost never a reason to besides it being fun to you. Unless you're really mixing non-quantized music a whole lot, the only practical reason for beatmatching is for your integrity, and nobody's going to realize you're beatmatching with buttons, they're going to see your lack of jogwheels and be certain that you're syncing. I'm not saying any of this is good, I'm saying this is the way that it is.
Jerica Salava 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by octostout An important thing you'll need to understand is that in the current DJ climate, you will never get booked to do that kind of thing. It's great for youtube videos etc. but nobody will ever care about it in a live setting. Performance stuff like that is something you do mostly for yourself. If your dream is to learn to do that stuff to play for yourself in your house, then buy whatever controller you like, and do awesome performance DJing. If you want to learn to play for people, you need to learn the traditional side of DJing, mixing tracks into a set for people to dance to. For this you do need jogwheels. Not because you need them for a practical reason, but because nobody will ever book you for any meaningful gig if you're not capable of claiming that you're beatmatching. It sucks, but that's how it is. I advise you to delete this post before you get pounded by many of the controllerists on this community . There are many controllerist DJ's making a great living out there. Also, you CAN get a gig if you don't know how to beatmatch. And you CAN beatmatch without jogwheels. >
Hipolito Scionti 08.03.2013	+1 on s2 with djtt mapping. Learn to dj on that then get an f1 if you want to get more into remix decks
Pricilla Hayslett 07.03.2013	Originally Posted by loverocket I advise you to delete this post before you get pounded by many of the controllerists on this community . There are many controllerist DJ's making a great living out there. Also, you CAN get a gig if you don't know how to beatmatch. And you CAN beatmatch without jogwheels. > Love this response brother!!
Pricilla Hayslett 07.03.2013	Originally Posted by SlvrDragon50 the Traktor S2,... and it doesn't have filter knobs and it's plastic. The filters on the S2 are also the gain which you can switch to gain/filter or filter/gain with the shift button used to activate the secondary function. It works very well. As for the "plastic" it is a very durable controller. Yes over budget, though one thing to consider is that to wait and save for a controller that will suit your needs and give room to grow that is better than purchasing something else only to want another controller down the road.
Jerica Salava 07.03.2013	Here you go $289: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-MC3000...item5d3b63b929
Pricilla Hayslett 06.03.2013	Well I figured I would toss a bit of info/opinion in... Do you need jog wheels no... are they only for scratching... no... Along with the ability to scroll through the song and pitch bend if you watch a couple of Ean's videos they have created a DjTechTools Mapping for the Kontrol s2/s4 that uses the jog wheels as effects controllers... a very cool option if you don't feel you want to scratch. Also having them and not needing them is better than wanting them and not having them. You will find as you begin to really get into djing that you will want room to grow and your ideas and styles may change or shift along the way. Also djing and music production can become more than a hobby... as you get better and more involved in the art you may find that you end up spinning at shows or parties. Keep those things in mind and get yourself a versitile controller. As for the Twitch... I looked into it as it is really an interesting controller and it's take on djing is innovative, but if you google it and look at reviews and such for it there are a few issues with it that you may not like... such as by itsself it is not very loud and you may need to have it run through another unit to get sufficient volume out of it. There are also some other issues as well... I don't remember what they all are but they were enough for me to abandon the idea. I would suggest that you go with a NI Controller and Traktor. There is plenty of power and tools in the software and hardware to do all that you want to do and more. One thing that is important is stability and dependability. If you get the wrong tools or if you try to cut corners you will end up spending more money in the long run and have to deal with endless tech issues. Do alot of homework, google everything seek out the good and the bad. Also make sure that you have a pc that will handle the software and hardware, there is nothing more frustrating than dealing with latency issues! Good luck and have a great time, welcome to the art and craft of Djing!
Doreen Schurle 06.03.2013	Haha fuck that, if I was stupid enough to buy CDJs I'd buy these:
Alphonso Deitchman 06.03.2013	Found some CDJs you might like mdc
Doreen Schurle 06.03.2013	This is what you want
Antonetta Wikel 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by loverocket DSCN0515.jpg I still have mine in a closet somewhere.
Jerica Salava 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by octostout Yeah, if you want to play at bars and stuff. Unless you're a producer, you're never getting booked in good slots at big events without jogwheels... It just isn't going to happen. and you can beatmatch without jogwheels, but almost never a reason to besides it being fun to you. Unless you're really mixing non-quantized music a whole lot, the only practical reason for beatmatching is for your integrity, and nobody's going to realize you're beatmatching with buttons, they're going to see your lack of jogwheels and be certain that you're syncing. I'm not saying any of this is good, I'm saying this is the way that it is. You make good points. Learning to carry a dance floor is #1 and production and remixing is the key to progressing from a simple DJ to a successful DJ artist. However, just because you produce a few tracks and get them on Beatport does not mean you will be be a famous DJ. I know lots of wedding DJ's who make more $$$$ than 90% of the producers on Beatport. Also, I learned to beatmatch CD's on the first CD player ever to feature pitch control. No jogs. Only pitch bend buttons. And of course, no sync. DSCN0515.jpg
Erica Charvet 06.03.2013	This discussion is going way to far. OP, this is a matter of personal preference. If this is your first controller, my opinion is that you should try one with jogs. They're intuitive and it's easier to adjust tempos if your grids are off and easier to set cue points/loops with precision. You could map these functions to buttons and knobs but that wouldn't suit me personally.
Tommy Thiner 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by bsudz I just want to learn to make some awesome controllerist mixes that I personally enjoy creating and listening to, and was just wondering if the Twitch is my best bet for a controller given my budget and what I want to do here. With that being said and thats all that you want to do. You will have a lot of fun on the Twitch. Whether it be learning to incorporate loop rolls, auto looping, slicer mode, adding fx the fun will never stop.
Doreen Schurle 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by cpetticrew "Ean" Pretentious name is pretentious :P
Tommy Thiner 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by octostout besides Ian Golden "Ean"
Elmo Haves 06.03.2013	Thanks for the feedback. I am only interested in this as a personal hobby, to have fun with, create some awesome mixes and mashups for myeslf, possibly for youtube though mostly likely not to honest..It's purely just for a fun creative outlet and I don't care to play in any sort of big venue or production. I'm a software engineer so with my normal work day and side projects, I don't have tons of time to devote to this as someone would need that wants to get into bars, clubs, and playing for large crowds. This will be used more or less as a vent and fun time after a long days work. I just want to learn to make some awesome controllerist mixes that I personally enjoy creating and listening to, and was just wondering if the Twitch is my best bet for a controller given my budget and what I want to do here.
Tommy Thiner 06.03.2013	The Filter Knob is actually the same knob that is labeled Trim when using Serato Itch. In Traktor the filter knob has an on off button to underneath it that is the headphone button on Serato so you can jump back and forth from trim and filter. The touchstrip believe it or not actually does a pretty damn good job on accurately pitch bending all though it does take some getting use to to get the hang of it. Its very similar to zooming in and out on a smart phone or apple trackpad. You brought up another dislike I have for the Twitch that I meant to add. Pitch Slider > Tempo Knob....The Tempo Knob is a pain in the ass compared to a pitch slider. Although the upside when using the Twitch in Ableton you get to extra knobs to map
Kathe Stump 06.03.2013	I'm a self-proclaimed controllerist. I juggle, do crazy effects chains, use acapellas, and mix on three track decks and a remix deck. I do this at every gig, and I am one of the higher-booking acts in my area. The point is that doing this stuff is not what gets you booked and should be WAAAAAAAY secondary to learning traditional DJing. DJs are there to spin dance sets, 99% of the people in the crowd don't know or care what you're doing. They judge you on how good it sounds. This is why people get away with pre-recorded sets, or 32-beat transitions and everyone believes they're great. Performance techniques in dance sets are awesome, but they should be done for yourself, and never expected to matter in anyone else's eyes. Originally Posted by loverocket There are many controllerist DJ's making a great living out there. Find me ONE person who is -NOT A PRODUCER- besides Ian Golden (who still doesn't count, because he's only well-known because of his instructional videos and DJTT) who is successful as a DJ doing only this kind of thing. Originally Posted by loverocket Also, you CAN get a gig if you don't know how to beatmatch. And you CAN beatmatch without jogwheels. Yeah, if you want to play at bars and stuff. Unless you're a producer, you're never getting booked in good slots at big events without jogwheels... It just isn't going to happen. and you can beatmatch without jogwheels, but almost never a reason to besides it being fun to you. Unless you're really mixing non-quantized music a whole lot, the only practical reason for beatmatching is for your integrity, and nobody's going to realize you're beatmatching with buttons, they're going to see your lack of jogwheels and be certain that you're syncing. I'm not saying any of this is good, I'm saying this is the way that it is.
Jerica Salava 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by octostout An important thing you'll need to understand is that in the current DJ climate, you will never get booked to do that kind of thing. It's great for youtube videos etc. but nobody will ever care about it in a live setting. Performance stuff like that is something you do mostly for yourself. If your dream is to learn to do that stuff to play for yourself in your house, then buy whatever controller you like, and do awesome performance DJing. If you want to learn to play for people, you need to learn the traditional side of DJing, mixing tracks into a set for people to dance to. For this you do need jogwheels. Not because you need them for a practical reason, but because nobody will ever book you for any meaningful gig if you're not capable of claiming that you're beatmatching. It sucks, but that's how it is. I advise you to delete this post before you get pounded by many of the controllerists on this community . There are many controllerist DJ's making a great living out there. Also, you CAN get a gig if you don't know how to beatmatch. And you CAN beatmatch without jogwheels. >
Kathe Stump 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by bsudz Thanks for all the responses and suggestions. As for knowing exactly what I want or don't want with the jog wheels..I'm not exactly sure of their full capabilities since I'm new to all of this. At the 7:00 min mark of Ean's video here is the kind of mixing I'm interested in learning. I know he uses his jog wheel a good amount but I believe he's got it remapped as an fx fader if I'm not mistaken? Given my budget of around $300ish, which controller would be easiest for me to learn and perform this style of mixing? Would the Twitch offer any advantages or ease of learning with its layout over a standard controller with jog wheels? or vice versa? These videos are exactly what inspired me to start DJing. Here's something I wish someone had told me when I first started: You will never get booked to do that kind of thing, and nobody will ever realyl care about it outside of youtube. It's great for youtube videos etc. but unless you get famous as a producer and do it nobody will ever care about you doing it in a live setting. (do NOT fucking bring up Madeon again, I swear to god) Performance stuff like that is something you do mostly for yourself. If your dream is to learn to do that stuff to play for yourself in your house, then buy whatever controller you like, and do awesome performance DJing. If you want to learn to play for people, you need to learn the traditional side of DJing, mixing tracks into a set for people to dance to. For this you do need jogwheels. Not because you need them for a practical reason, but because nobody will ever book you for any meaningful gig if you're not capable of claiming that you're beatmatching. It sucks, but that's how it is.
Jerica Salava 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by cpetticrew In some instances I def. feel that the jog wheels would make things easier for on the fly such as beatmatching. Although with the touchstrip i'm able to use the drop function which allows you to move directly to the section of the song you would like to be at. For instance if you want to go to the middle of the track you hit the drop button and then touch directly in the middle of the touchstrip and it will take you to the middle of the track. Although you may not touch exactly dead center where you would want to be. If your a little before you can either use the touchstrip to slide to the exact point or play that track in your headphones and pause it once you get to that point. Limitation wise one being four deck control. In Traktor you are able to use four decks but I would really like to have EQ's for each deck without having to share them amongst 2 decks. I also picked up a Midi fighter Spectra to help with this limitation but I really hated the effects only being able to be used via one knob or the fader. I would have liked it more if the Twitch had the ability to add another banking to use the buttons for FX as well. Hence why I got the Spectra (got the Spectra for more then just that but thats a whole nother story) These two limitations arent deal breakers by any means and theres other little things I can nit pick about like the sound output (which isnt horrible but not awesome) I'm still able to rock a house party or my studio via my KRK's without having the output set to max I have questions about the Twitch. I assume you're using Traktor. Where did you map the filter knob? Can you use the touchstrip to pitch bend accurately? I assume the Tempo knob controls the pitch slider. Do you like the tempo knob vs a true pitch slider? >
Tommy Thiner 06.03.2013	In some instances I def. feel that the jog wheels would make things easier for on the fly such as beatmatching. Although with the touchstrip i'm able to use the drop function which allows you to move directly to the section of the song you would like to be at. For instance if you want to go to the middle of the track you hit the drop button and then touch directly in the middle of the touchstrip and it will take you to the middle of the track. Although you may not touch exactly dead center where you would want to be. If your a little before you can either use the touchstrip to slide to the exact point or play that track in your headphones and pause it once you get to that point. Limitation wise one being four deck control. In Traktor you are able to use four decks but I would really like to have EQ's for each deck without having to share them amongst 2 decks. I also picked up a Midi fighter Spectra to help with this limitation but I really hated the effects only being able to be used via one knob or the fader. I would have liked it more if the Twitch had the ability to add another banking to use the buttons for FX as well. Hence why I got the Spectra (got the Spectra for more then just that but thats a whole nother story) These two limitations arent deal breakers by any means and theres other little things I can nit pick about like the sound output (which isnt horrible but not awesome) I'm still able to rock a house party or my studio via my KRK's without having the output set to max
Gaynell Rydberg 06.03.2013	If 300 bucks is your budget, Denon MC3000! It's the best controller w/ jog wheels IMO. Next closest thing will be the Traktor S2, but that's over the budget, and it doesn't have filter knobs and it's plastic.
Elmo Haves 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by cpetticrew If you have any questions regarding the Twitch man feel free to to ask away! Thanks for the feedback! Have you ever thought that having jog wheels would make things easier for on the fly or do the slide pads work well enough? Now that you understand more about mixing, what do you feel limited with on the Twitch?
Tommy Thiner 06.03.2013	If you have any questions regarding the Twitch man feel free to to ask away!
Tommy Thiner 06.03.2013	I picked up a Novation Twitch as my first ever controller. I sounded exactly like you did when I was first getting into mixing. I cant speak for any of the other controllers but with my hours upon hours of use with the Twitch I am still to this day learning new tricks on it (had it for over a year). I would say I play on a pretty consistent basis if not every day then every other and it has yet to let me down. Although now that I understand a lot more when it comes to the art of mixing I am now wanting to upgrade from my Twitch. As a beginners tool to what I would consider myself as an amatuer the Twitch has been there for me from day one and I wouldnt have chose a different controller to start out on.
Elmo Haves 06.03.2013	Thanks for all the responses and suggestions. As for knowing exactly what I want or don't want with the jog wheels..I'm not exactly sure of their full capabilities since I'm new to all of this. At the 7:00 min mark of Ean's video here is the kind of mixing I'm interested in learning. I know he uses his jog wheel a good amount but I believe he's got it remapped as an fx fader if I'm not mistaken? Given my budget of around $300ish, which controller would be easiest for me to learn and perform this style of mixing? Would the Twitch offer any advantages or ease of learning with its layout over a standard controller with jog wheels? or vice versa?
Jerica Salava 06.03.2013	I vote for the Denon MC 3000. Inexpensive high quality feature packed controller that's Traktor ready. >
Kira Menichetti 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by SlvrDragon50 I thought I would need jog wheels, but I'm finding that you can easily pitch bend with buttons and whatnot. The jog wheels aren't really for scratching anyways. I can recommend Denon MC-3000. You can get it for ~270 new from eBay. Feels solid, and the faders feel AMAZING. yeah, i have been pitchbending with buttons now too, but honestly i cant say its as fun forsure. believeing about switchign to some sort of dvs setup...
Doreen Schurle 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by kooper1980 I agree. Asymmetry pains me on a deep level. I've adored all of my Reloop controllers. Ive never owned a contour though but I am seriously considering it as an addition. Of all the gear I've owned/used, I've never used something as intuitive for FX and cuepoints as the Contour. Considering how cheap they are, if you haven't already got one, it's WELL worth picking one up
Yu Santellano 06.03.2013	You don't need them if you're sure about what you want from a controller, and ive never really heard anyone complain about using the strip on the Twitch to navigate a track. However, it does help to have them over nothing at all, as they make navigating tracks so much easier.
Kristofer Krauel 06.03.2013	Originally Posted by mdcdesign Yeah, I can't really comment on the VCI-100 but if I recall correctly it's metal construction as well. I'm really not a fan of the asymmetric design though. I agree. Asymmetry pains me on a deep level. I've adored all of my Reloop controllers. Ive never owned a contour though but I am seriously considering it as an addition.

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First controller..Do I really need jog wheels?