Tempo fader encoder design

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Tempo fader encoder design
Posted on: 19.08.2011 by Gina Raffa
Hi guys, i'm still working on my project, i've been working mainly in the arduino code which is not that interesting, but i have the base for the code worked up i'll be using 26 rotary encoders 80 buttons &64 leds, split in 2 identical units to sit to each side of the mixer. One particular design obstacle i've seen in most of the DIY controllers is the tempo control, since it varies automatically when you use the "sync" feature so using an analog potentiometer with "soft takeover" seems to be the most popular solution, but trying to correct the tempo "on the fly" with "soft takeover" on leads to disaster. So i got the idea of using an encoder but, i found different problems, rotary encoders for tempo are awful, linear encoders have finite motion (end are expensive as hell!) touch strips give an absolute value (if tempo is in -1 position and you touch +6, it will jump up to +6!) and lack tactile feedback.
So i came with this design, please fell free to make any suggestion and use it for you project.
The rotary encoder would be one without detents and the belt is a geared belt.


pulleys

Pulleys

Belts

Frame
Chasidy Heckenbach
26.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
I was working in implementing this but i want to finish this project first or it will become the pharaoh's tomb (they where always working on them) Besides, it seems that somebody stole my idea.
the scs.3d and scs.3m have cool touch strips that u can add into a setup with other controllers. and they sometimes for really cheaply on ebay etc.
Chasidy Heckenbach
24.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
Yea, it says LED but if you send it as a CC instead of a note it will send values from 0x01 to 0x7F, i discovered with midiOX.
you can use a note or a cc - just make sure that blend is selected.
Gina Raffa
24.08.2011
Originally Posted by kostis12345
I must be blind, I can't seem to find it xD
Is it add out>tempo>tempo fader?

If so, it just controlls a led. However you could route it to an analog in in arduino which would essentially give you the position!!

Thanks a million I've been going nuts over this xD
Yea, it says LED but if you send it as a CC instead of a note it will send values from 0x01 to 0x7F, i discovered with midiOX.
Gina Raffa
23.08.2011
Originally Posted by kostis12345
That's why I won't be using arduino for my next project(s) xD(chipKit Max32 FTW)

BTW, have you found a way to send the pitch value of a deck via midi?
Well not actually the pitch value, but the tempo fader position (is that the same?) go to add out>pitch fader>cc#x.
Jan Manzoni
22.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
I have a scrap yamaha 01v that can donate the faders, but the problem with motorized faders is the servo, you can use a dedicated one or implement it in the software, but it would be more overhead for the poor arduino for a feature that i really don't need that much.
That's why I won't be using arduino for my next project(s) xD(chipKit Max32 FTW)

BTW, have you found a way to send the pitch value of a deck via midi?
Gina Raffa
20.08.2011
Originally Posted by kostis12345
Have you considered motorized faders? Yeah they are expensive but they could work.
Another thing you could try is to replicate the faders of the V7. When switching from one deck to the other the tempo fader stops working until you get it to the position of Deck 2.
If the fader of Deck A is below the one of Deck B an arrow pointing up lights up and the other way around. You would need however to find a way to send the BPM/+- pitch from Traktor to your Controller
I have a scrap yamaha 01v that can donate the faders, but the problem with motorized faders is the servo, you can use a dedicated one or implement it in the software, but it would be more overhead for the poor arduino for a feature that i really don't need that much.
Chasidy Heckenbach
19.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
Look at 02:01, see what i mean?
at 2:01 in the video he's demonstrating the circular area using the absolute midi messages. each strip sends out an absolute *and* relative message and its up to you (or traktor) which of those you want to use.

for what you want to do, adjusting pitch, you'd ignore the absolute message and just map the relative one.

edit: u posted the vid while i was writing my 1st reply - hence this 2nd one.
Chasidy Heckenbach
19.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
That's very cool, but the problem i see is what i said before, if you have the tempo set, let's say, in -5 % and you touch the strip in the +8% position, the tempo will jump instantly, not very "mix friendly", IMHO.
that's not true at all. if your firmware (or other middleware app) converts the absolute midi message into a relative encoder-style one based one based on previous movements and timestamps etc.

e.g: the scs.3d will send out a note on when you touch the strip, then an absolute cc (0-127) as you move *and* a relative cc (63 or 64 (ish, depends on how fast u move)) like an encoder before sending out a note off when you release the touch strip.
Chasidy Heckenbach
19.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
touch strips give an absolute value (if tempo is in -1 position and you touch +6, it will jump up to +6!) and lack tactile feedback.
you could convert the absolute value into a relative message too in the same way the (awesome imho) scs.3d does. in that mode i dont see the lack of tactile feedback an issue at all.
Gina Raffa
19.08.2011		Hi guys, i'm still working on my project, i've been working mainly in the arduino code which is not that interesting, but i have the base for the code worked up i'll be using 26 rotary encoders 80 buttons &64 leds, split in 2 identical units to sit to each side of the mixer. One particular design obstacle i've seen in most of the DIY controllers is the tempo control, since it varies automatically when you use the "sync" feature so using an analog potentiometer with "soft takeover" seems to be the most popular solution, but trying to correct the tempo "on the fly" with "soft takeover" on leads to disaster. So i got the idea of using an encoder but, i found different problems, rotary encoders for tempo are awful, linear encoders have finite motion (end are expensive as hell!) touch strips give an absolute value (if tempo is in -1 position and you touch +6, it will jump up to +6!) and lack tactile feedback.
So i came with this design, please fell free to make any suggestion and use it for you project.
The rotary encoder would be one without detents and the belt is a geared belt.


pulleys

Pulleys

Belts

Frame
Gina Raffa
26.08.2011		Look what i found surfing for components. I have my next project in mind, but i believe it will be more "VJ friendly".

Rachel's electronics touch modules.
Chasidy Heckenbach
26.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
I was working in implementing this but i want to finish this project first or it will become the pharaoh's tomb (they where always working on them) Besides, it seems that somebody stole my idea.
the scs.3d and scs.3m have cool touch strips that u can add into a setup with other controllers. and they sometimes for really cheaply on ebay etc.
Gina Raffa
26.08.2011		I was working in implementing this but i want to finish this project first or it will become the pharaoh's tomb (they where always working on them) Besides, it seems that somebody stole my idea.

Jan Manzoni
24.08.2011		Even better. Now I can implement motorized faders in my controller
Chasidy Heckenbach
24.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
Yea, it says LED but if you send it as a CC instead of a note it will send values from 0x01 to 0x7F, i discovered with midiOX.
you can use a note or a cc - just make sure that blend is selected.
Gina Raffa
24.08.2011
Originally Posted by kostis12345
I must be blind, I can't seem to find it xD
Is it add out>tempo>tempo fader?

If so, it just controlls a led. However you could route it to an analog in in arduino which would essentially give you the position!!

Thanks a million I've been going nuts over this xD
Yea, it says LED but if you send it as a CC instead of a note it will send values from 0x01 to 0x7F, i discovered with midiOX.
Jan Manzoni
23.08.2011		I must be blind, I can't seem to find it xD
Is it add out>tempo>tempo fader?

If so, it just controlls a led. However you could route it to an analog in in arduino which would essentially give you the position!!

Thanks a million I've been going nuts over this xD
Gina Raffa
23.08.2011
Originally Posted by kostis12345
That's why I won't be using arduino for my next project(s) xD(chipKit Max32 FTW)

BTW, have you found a way to send the pitch value of a deck via midi?
Well not actually the pitch value, but the tempo fader position (is that the same?) go to add out>pitch fader>cc#x.
Jan Manzoni
22.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
I have a scrap yamaha 01v that can donate the faders, but the problem with motorized faders is the servo, you can use a dedicated one or implement it in the software, but it would be more overhead for the poor arduino for a feature that i really don't need that much.
That's why I won't be using arduino for my next project(s) xD(chipKit Max32 FTW)

BTW, have you found a way to send the pitch value of a deck via midi?
Gina Raffa
20.08.2011
Originally Posted by kostis12345
Have you considered motorized faders? Yeah they are expensive but they could work.
Another thing you could try is to replicate the faders of the V7. When switching from one deck to the other the tempo fader stops working until you get it to the position of Deck 2.
If the fader of Deck A is below the one of Deck B an arrow pointing up lights up and the other way around. You would need however to find a way to send the BPM/+- pitch from Traktor to your Controller
I have a scrap yamaha 01v that can donate the faders, but the problem with motorized faders is the servo, you can use a dedicated one or implement it in the software, but it would be more overhead for the poor arduino for a feature that i really don't need that much.
Gina Raffa
20.08.2011
have a look at that video at 3:20, there he demonstrates the pitch slider thats working in relative mode
Yeah, that's cool but rotary encoders are easier to implement, although the mechanical disadvantages counterweight that, i might give the resistive strips a try.
Jan Manzoni
20.08.2011		Have you considered motorized faders? Yeah they are expensive but they could work.
Another thing you could try is to replicate the faders of the V7. When switching from one deck to the other the tempo fader stops working until you get it to the position of Deck 2.
If the fader of Deck A is below the one of Deck B an arrow pointing up lights up and the other way around. You would need however to find a way to send the BPM/+- pitch from Traktor to your Controller
Chasidy Heckenbach
19.08.2011		have a look at that video at 3:20, there he demonstrates the pitch slider thats working in relative mode. in reality all the sliders send out absolute and relative messages for each motion, he's using darouter there (that i dont use) that does some extra translation of own on top.
Chasidy Heckenbach
19.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
Look at 02:01, see what i mean?
at 2:01 in the video he's demonstrating the circular area using the absolute midi messages. each strip sends out an absolute *and* relative message and its up to you (or traktor) which of those you want to use.

for what you want to do, adjusting pitch, you'd ignore the absolute message and just map the relative one.

edit: u posted the vid while i was writing my 1st reply - hence this 2nd one.
Chasidy Heckenbach
19.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
That's very cool, but the problem i see is what i said before, if you have the tempo set, let's say, in -5 % and you touch the strip in the +8% position, the tempo will jump instantly, not very "mix friendly", IMHO.
that's not true at all. if your firmware (or other middleware app) converts the absolute midi message into a relative encoder-style one based one based on previous movements and timestamps etc.

e.g: the scs.3d will send out a note on when you touch the strip, then an absolute cc (0-127) as you move *and* a relative cc (63 or 64 (ish, depends on how fast u move)) like an encoder before sending out a note off when you release the touch strip.
Gina Raffa
19.08.2011		Look at 02:01, see what i mean?

Gina Raffa
19.08.2011		That's very cool, but the problem i see is what i said before, if you have the tempo set, let's say, in -5 % and you touch the strip in the +8% position, the tempo will jump instantly, not very "mix friendly", IMHO.
Keli Vandenbergh
19.08.2011		I have 2 units of this. Do you find it useful or interesting? Let's talk...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHaSLoNxfBY

Guy on yellow tshirt not included (but I could get sold if the $$$ is generous lol)
Chasidy Heckenbach
19.08.2011
Originally Posted by djkrugger
touch strips give an absolute value (if tempo is in -1 position and you touch +6, it will jump up to +6!) and lack tactile feedback.
you could convert the absolute value into a relative message too in the same way the (awesome imho) scs.3d does. in that mode i dont see the lack of tactile feedback an issue at all.

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