Question for Zoom 4Hn users

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Question for Zoom 4Hn users
Posted on: 18.04.2013 by Jerica Haagsma
What is the optimal record format when using the Zoom 4Hn on a live set? Is there any advantage to using 96kHz/24bit? Everything I've researched thus far says no, but would like to get some DJTT members opinion. My plan is to use the built-in microphones as the input source.
Pam Stolley
24.04.2013
Originally Posted by R01
That's a bit of a weird question, as there's no one answer. First off, depends on your mixer output, is the ouput you're going to record from use RCA, TS, TRS or XLR plugs? If you're using a recorder like the Zoom H4N you'll want to plug in using either TS, TRS or XLR. Just make sure you set the input to line, or if it doesn't have that function use the physical connection specified for line signal use. To find the model type cable you need, just match up the mixer record out connector to the recorder line in connector.

In terms of brand cables, I can't answer that, I honestly make my own cables (unless it's RCA, you find those ANYWHERE for cheap). I highly recommend Neutrik when it comes to the connectors. For the actual cable, I dunno, Mogami, Canare? Any decent quality cable is fine. It's not like you're going to be running a long cable, if fact it's likely to be a short cable.

You can always just buy the cables you need off a site like sweetwater, redco, etc. I just don't do that personally because it's so easy to make your own cables, you save money and I know I'm using good quality parts.

Hope that answers your question.
yeah thx. after i record a few gigs i'll let you know what i ended up with.
Trey Brune
19.04.2013
Originally Posted by Underground
Limit2 (Concert) Limiter suitable for live
This is the only function I would use. Live can be a very unforgiving environment, and you absolutely want to avoid any kind of distortion by overloading recordings. I would't actively limit what you're recording, it's more of a failsafe for overloads.

If you can get in the booth before you play and set levels a bit, that should be enough. Again, that limiter is there in case it's not set up perfectly. That way it's just plug and go.
Jerica Haagsma
19.04.2013
Originally Posted by R01
First off, set the recorder itself somewhere near the center of your gear, facing towards the crowd. I believe the Zoom H4N is fixed at either 90 or 120 degree XY. Depending on how wide you want it to sound, pick one of those.
Export all tracks to a DAW of choice, all you need to do is some simple tweaking. First throw an EQ on the ambience tracks, remove some of the low-end and slightly cut some resonance spots if you have them. You do this 'cause there will most likely be some rumble from the PA speakers and it'll probably have a bunch of low-end mud which won't gel well with your clean tracks. Throw a compressor on the ambience tracks to control it a bit, and if it's really too dynamic, use a limiter. Once that's done, you'll want to play your clean mix tracks and slowly fade in the ambiance tracks until you get a nice balance. You're really just adding space, so treat it like you're adding reverb.
The finishing touch would be to automate the ambience tracks at the beginning and end of your mix, so you can clearly hear the crowd.

No need to do more than this.
Thank you again for the information! I see the Zoom has some compressors and limiters built in. Do you recommend using these? The options are as follows:

Comp 1 (General) - Standard Compressor
Comp 2 (Vocal) - Compressor suitable for vocal
Comp 3 (Drum) - Compressor suitable for drum and precussion
Limit1 (General) - Standard Limiter
Limit2 (Concert) Limiter suitable for live
Limit2 (studio) - Limiter suitable for studio recording.

The club is has pretty intense sound, more so on the floor then in the booth. Also, the recorder has a Rec Level Auto function that automatically sets the recording levels. Is this a useful function? I prefer to do it myself, but the change over from the prior DJ can get a little stressful at times and it would be helpful it actually works correctly
Trey Brune
18.04.2013
Originally Posted by bluegrassdj
could you recommend any specific brand/model cable to use for the record out?
That's a bit of a weird question, as there's no one answer. First off, depends on your mixer output, is the ouput you're going to record from use RCA, TS, TRS or XLR plugs? If you're using a recorder like the Zoom H4N you'll want to plug in using either TS, TRS or XLR. Just make sure you set the input to line, or if it doesn't have that function use the physical connection specified for line signal use. To find the model type cable you need, just match up the mixer record out connector to the recorder line in connector.

In terms of brand cables, I can't answer that, I honestly make my own cables (unless it's RCA, you find those ANYWHERE for cheap). I highly recommend Neutrik when it comes to the connectors. For the actual cable, I dunno, Mogami, Canare? Any decent quality cable is fine. It's not like you're going to be running a long cable, if fact it's likely to be a short cable.

You can always just buy the cables you need off a site like sweetwater, redco, etc. I just don't do that personally because it's so easy to make your own cables, you save money and I know I'm using good quality parts.

Hope that answers your question.
Trey Brune
18.04.2013
Originally Posted by Underground
How do you recommend mixing the two recordings together?
First off, set the recorder itself somewhere near the center of your gear, facing towards the crowd. I believe the Zoom H4N is fixed at either 90 or 120 degree XY. Depending on how wide you want it to sound, pick one of those.
Export all tracks to a DAW of choice, all you need to do is some simple tweaking. First throw an EQ on the ambience tracks, remove some of the low-end and slightly cut some resonance spots if you have them. You do this 'cause there will most likely be some rumble from the PA speakers and it'll probably have a bunch of low-end mud which won't gel well with your clean tracks. Throw a compressor on the ambience tracks to control it a bit, and if it's really too dynamic, use a limiter. Once that's done, you'll want to play your clean mix tracks and slowly fade in the ambiance tracks until you get a nice balance. You're really just adding space, so treat it like you're adding reverb.
The finishing touch would be to automate the ambience tracks at the beginning and end of your mix, so you can clearly hear the crowd.

No need to do more than this.
Jerica Haagsma
18.04.2013		What is the optimal record format when using the Zoom 4Hn on a live set? Is there any advantage to using 96kHz/24bit? Everything I've researched thus far says no, but would like to get some DJTT members opinion. My plan is to use the built-in microphones as the input source.
Pam Stolley
24.04.2013
Originally Posted by R01
That's a bit of a weird question, as there's no one answer. First off, depends on your mixer output, is the ouput you're going to record from use RCA, TS, TRS or XLR plugs? If you're using a recorder like the Zoom H4N you'll want to plug in using either TS, TRS or XLR. Just make sure you set the input to line, or if it doesn't have that function use the physical connection specified for line signal use. To find the model type cable you need, just match up the mixer record out connector to the recorder line in connector.

In terms of brand cables, I can't answer that, I honestly make my own cables (unless it's RCA, you find those ANYWHERE for cheap). I highly recommend Neutrik when it comes to the connectors. For the actual cable, I dunno, Mogami, Canare? Any decent quality cable is fine. It's not like you're going to be running a long cable, if fact it's likely to be a short cable.

You can always just buy the cables you need off a site like sweetwater, redco, etc. I just don't do that personally because it's so easy to make your own cables, you save money and I know I'm using good quality parts.

Hope that answers your question.
yeah thx. after i record a few gigs i'll let you know what i ended up with.
Trey Brune
19.04.2013
Originally Posted by Underground
Limit2 (Concert) Limiter suitable for live
This is the only function I would use. Live can be a very unforgiving environment, and you absolutely want to avoid any kind of distortion by overloading recordings. I would't actively limit what you're recording, it's more of a failsafe for overloads.

If you can get in the booth before you play and set levels a bit, that should be enough. Again, that limiter is there in case it's not set up perfectly. That way it's just plug and go.
Jerica Haagsma
19.04.2013
Originally Posted by R01
First off, set the recorder itself somewhere near the center of your gear, facing towards the crowd. I believe the Zoom H4N is fixed at either 90 or 120 degree XY. Depending on how wide you want it to sound, pick one of those.
Export all tracks to a DAW of choice, all you need to do is some simple tweaking. First throw an EQ on the ambience tracks, remove some of the low-end and slightly cut some resonance spots if you have them. You do this 'cause there will most likely be some rumble from the PA speakers and it'll probably have a bunch of low-end mud which won't gel well with your clean tracks. Throw a compressor on the ambience tracks to control it a bit, and if it's really too dynamic, use a limiter. Once that's done, you'll want to play your clean mix tracks and slowly fade in the ambiance tracks until you get a nice balance. You're really just adding space, so treat it like you're adding reverb.
The finishing touch would be to automate the ambience tracks at the beginning and end of your mix, so you can clearly hear the crowd.

No need to do more than this.
Thank you again for the information! I see the Zoom has some compressors and limiters built in. Do you recommend using these? The options are as follows:

Comp 1 (General) - Standard Compressor
Comp 2 (Vocal) - Compressor suitable for vocal
Comp 3 (Drum) - Compressor suitable for drum and precussion
Limit1 (General) - Standard Limiter
Limit2 (Concert) Limiter suitable for live
Limit2 (studio) - Limiter suitable for studio recording.

The club is has pretty intense sound, more so on the floor then in the booth. Also, the recorder has a Rec Level Auto function that automatically sets the recording levels. Is this a useful function? I prefer to do it myself, but the change over from the prior DJ can get a little stressful at times and it would be helpful it actually works correctly
Trey Brune
18.04.2013
Originally Posted by bluegrassdj
could you recommend any specific brand/model cable to use for the record out?
That's a bit of a weird question, as there's no one answer. First off, depends on your mixer output, is the ouput you're going to record from use RCA, TS, TRS or XLR plugs? If you're using a recorder like the Zoom H4N you'll want to plug in using either TS, TRS or XLR. Just make sure you set the input to line, or if it doesn't have that function use the physical connection specified for line signal use. To find the model type cable you need, just match up the mixer record out connector to the recorder line in connector.

In terms of brand cables, I can't answer that, I honestly make my own cables (unless it's RCA, you find those ANYWHERE for cheap). I highly recommend Neutrik when it comes to the connectors. For the actual cable, I dunno, Mogami, Canare? Any decent quality cable is fine. It's not like you're going to be running a long cable, if fact it's likely to be a short cable.

You can always just buy the cables you need off a site like sweetwater, redco, etc. I just don't do that personally because it's so easy to make your own cables, you save money and I know I'm using good quality parts.

Hope that answers your question.
Pam Stolley
18.04.2013		^^ that is a lot to do. lol.

could you recommend any specific brand/model cable to use for the record out?
Trey Brune
18.04.2013
Originally Posted by Underground
How do you recommend mixing the two recordings together?
First off, set the recorder itself somewhere near the center of your gear, facing towards the crowd. I believe the Zoom H4N is fixed at either 90 or 120 degree XY. Depending on how wide you want it to sound, pick one of those.
Export all tracks to a DAW of choice, all you need to do is some simple tweaking. First throw an EQ on the ambience tracks, remove some of the low-end and slightly cut some resonance spots if you have them. You do this 'cause there will most likely be some rumble from the PA speakers and it'll probably have a bunch of low-end mud which won't gel well with your clean tracks. Throw a compressor on the ambience tracks to control it a bit, and if it's really too dynamic, use a limiter. Once that's done, you'll want to play your clean mix tracks and slowly fade in the ambiance tracks until you get a nice balance. You're really just adding space, so treat it like you're adding reverb.
The finishing touch would be to automate the ambience tracks at the beginning and end of your mix, so you can clearly hear the crowd.

No need to do more than this.
Jerica Haagsma
18.04.2013		Thank you for the excellent advice! Definitely going to record using both the record out of the mixer and the microphones. Love hearing the of the crowd reaction, but your right about protecting against some loud idiot. How do you recommend mixing the two recordings together?
Trey Brune
18.04.2013		I'll try and keep this short. Basic CD quality audio is 44.1kHz/16bit, so anything at or above this level is acceptable. Higher resolutions exists primarily for professional audio projects when one would want to maximize quality right before pushing it down to CD. There's a lot of debate about which resolution should be used, but my own opinion is to base it on what quality you believe you need and what is possible. If you're doing a classical recording of an orchestra, want to maximize detail and you've got TB's of HD space, go ahead and record at 96kHz/24bit. If you're doing a small DJ gig (playing primarily CD quality or MP3's) and have a limited amount of space to save your recording to, use something around 44.1kHz/16bit. *Obviously the higher the recording resolution, the more space the recording eats, so keep that in mind*

The way audio quality works isn't linear, it's exponential. So as you increase the resolution, the increase in quality becomes less and less apparent. That's why it's debatable what you should be using. Some people record at 44.1Khz/16bit because they are already on CD quality and don't need to down sample it. Others prefer recording at 44.1kHz/24bit or 96kHz/24bit because they feel they gain some extra detail even though they have to down sample eventually.

For a small recorder such as your Zoom H4N, I'd stick with 44.1Khz/16bit, considering how much more limited it is when it comes to recording space, and the fact you're likely to record for an hour or more. I'd also suggest recording your mix straight. If your mixer has a recording out, or a booth output you're not using, just get some RCA -> TS plugs (or whatever output plugs your mixer has) and go straight into your Zoom H4N. That way you're getting maximum quality out of your recording. Since it can record 4 tracks, just use the 2 mics to record the live ambiance of your show, you can always mix that on top of the clean mix recording later. Gives you maximum flexibility, just in case some idiot is yelling stupid stuff over your excellent mix.

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