could the s4 kill 3rd party traktor controllers?
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could the s4 kill 3rd party traktor controllers? Posted on: 28.12.2010 by Candace Carmouche Hear me out here. Just believeing out loud for the moment...i often believe about NI vs Serato as an microsoft vs apple scenario. Theres a lot of parallels when you believe about it. Especially now that NI has all their own controllers for pretty much everything now. It reminds me of how Apple keeps things closed and tends to dump on their third parties whereas Microsoft tends to bend over backwards for their isv's and developers. I guess in this scenario Serato could be played by Microsoft and NI is kind of morphing into a hybrid of apple. So heres where my concern lies. Third parties can't be happy about these new NI controllers at all. The s4 announcement must have been like a bomb going off inside the Vestax offices when it happened. Theres no way they can be happy about it or the X1's. So my question is, do you believe this will influence vendors decisions to make itch controllers? I have a feeling it will. Serato's people (especially their marketting people) arent stupid. I'm sure theyre already making phone calls pointing out things like "hey we'll never compete with you! we want to help foster YOUR business by providing a platform for you to make real profit!" I believe the next couple of years is going to be really interesting to see what happens. The X1, Maschine, and S4 might be good for the short term for NI. But I can't see how this is anything but suicide as far as maintaining their isv relationships. What do you guys believe? | |
| Leeanna Ayla 05.01.2011 |
Originally Posted by Dubba Dutch
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| Caryn Liberato 05.01.2011 |
Originally Posted by photojojo
If everyone was in the same market for only one type of controller and if the SSL/Itch and Traktor were the only dj software out, then maybe the S4 would make a tiny negative impact, but you gotta remember S4 owners only represent a teeny tiny percentage of all the types of dj's out there. That said I still believe in the long run the S4 is a game changer, not just for dj's but for the market to. When you break down what the S4 can do against it's retail price, it's now down to everyone else to stop being greedy and play catch up. One way or another everything goes round in a circle, thankfully NI are here to help push things on. As for saying Vestex might be pissed at Native Instruments, hmmm, how well do you believe Vestax would of done in the last 3/4 years if it wasn't for N.I or even TechTools, the turntable market isn't exactly thriving and most scratch dj's finally know other battle mixers exist that you don't have to fit third party faders in to. Vestax have virtually been saved by the digital dj boom, so you would like to believe after all those VCI 100/300 sales they could come up with something special by now, which couldn't be further from the truth. The S4 is/should be giving every other manufacturer a much needed kick up the ass. N.I have yet to even make 10 pieces of hardware in there history and so far there showing much more experienced companys how to produce what the customer wants and at a fair price. When you compare what the other big brands are up to you gotta love the way N.I. work and have achieved in a small amount of time. Pioneer elitist price tag for cd players with big screens, usb and 3 hot cues Vestax ability to create groundbreaking dj gear once every 5 years but spend those 5 years in between going side ways rather than forwards, while still making everyone believe they make pro solid gear. And then there's Serato spending $$$ and years developing the Bridge, something so incredible that only 2% of there users will want or understand. |
| gabriel ortiz 31.12.2010 |
Originally Posted by bergen
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Its business, pure and simple. Before the announcement of the S4 a lot of people were begging NI for a tightly integrated Traktor mixer (myself included). NI listened and gave the customers what they asked for. I don't believe any business will ever fail using this strategy. (within reason of course) Also I believe its a little ridiculous to assume that NI is alienating third party vendors by producing a unit of their own. It was no secret that NI was producing a unit. Vestax & Denon knew about the S4 long before release date and released new controllers right around the same time the S4 dropped.If they did not believe they could profit they would not have released anything new. As long as Traktor supports MIDI every third party vendor has a fighting chance. NI releasing a unit may hurt sales a little but it will force them to get on the cutting edge and release controllers that are a step above the rest in order to compete. This is great for the consumer and more importantly the art of DJing. If third party vendors believe they can't compete and decide to hang it up and quit, so be it. I don't want something that doesn't meet/exceed the standard that NI has set anyway. If the controllers 3rd parties produce don't do well, it is no ones fault but there own. You can't go around pointing the finger at the other business and blame it for your (the company) failures. NI has raised the bar and now everyone must catch up. that being said, Im sure we will see third party Traktor/midi controllers for years to come.
Originally Posted by xtianw
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| Candace Carmouche 29.12.2010 |
Originally Posted by karl
although people assuming its business as usual regardless of the s4's release is a bit niave imo |
| Candace Carmouche 28.12.2010 |
Originally Posted by karl
Originally Posted by karl
|
| gabriel ortiz 28.12.2010 |
Originally Posted by photojojo
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| Candace Carmouche 28.12.2010 |
Originally Posted by JesC
these are multi million dollar investments were talking about here. honestly, given what ive learned from the business world. If it was my call and i was lets say vestax, numark, amdj, or anyone else. I'd start making itch controllers. at least i wouldnt have to worry about competing with my platform provider. lets face it, NI has pretty much killed 3rd party innovation with the s4. yes, the software works with other controllers. but its not like vestax can tell their customers to pirate it to get any of its feature set. The smartest thing I believe NI can do for their long term books is just sell the s4 software on a model similar to what Serato is doing with the itch platform. Give a set of guidelines to make something "S4 Certified". Otherwise, given what Serato offers third parties in the way of an isv relationship, theres just no real incentive for these companies to invest millions into r&d and manufacturing in china to bring traktor controllers to market. They'll always be behind the "out of the box experience" the s4 provides. Don't you believe? |
| Candace Carmouche 28.12.2010 | Hear me out here. Just believeing out loud for the moment... i often believe about NI vs Serato as an microsoft vs apple scenario. Theres a lot of parallels when you believe about it. Especially now that NI has all their own controllers for pretty much everything now. It reminds me of how Apple keeps things closed and tends to dump on their third parties whereas Microsoft tends to bend over backwards for their isv's and developers. I guess in this scenario Serato could be played by Microsoft and NI is kind of morphing into a hybrid of apple. So heres where my concern lies. Third parties can't be happy about these new NI controllers at all. The s4 announcement must have been like a bomb going off inside the Vestax offices when it happened. Theres no way they can be happy about it or the X1's. So my question is, do you believe this will influence vendors decisions to make itch controllers? I have a feeling it will. Serato's people (especially their marketting people) arent stupid. I'm sure theyre already making phone calls pointing out things like "hey we'll never compete with you! we want to help foster YOUR business by providing a platform for you to make real profit!" I believe the next couple of years is going to be really interesting to see what happens. The X1, Maschine, and S4 might be good for the short term for NI. But I can't see how this is anything but suicide as far as maintaining their isv relationships. What do you guys believe? |
| Janyce Henningson 05.01.2011 | I believe the answer to this can be seen here in the community
s over the last few months. Nearly everyone wants an S4, but a lot can't afford / justify the price tag so they will get something cheaper - and while there is a demand for other controllers, there will be a supply. |
| Leeanna Ayla 05.01.2011 |
Originally Posted by Dubba Dutch
|
| Caryn Liberato 05.01.2011 |
Originally Posted by photojojo
If everyone was in the same market for only one type of controller and if the SSL/Itch and Traktor were the only dj software out, then maybe the S4 would make a tiny negative impact, but you gotta remember S4 owners only represent a teeny tiny percentage of all the types of dj's out there. That said I still believe in the long run the S4 is a game changer, not just for dj's but for the market to. When you break down what the S4 can do against it's retail price, it's now down to everyone else to stop being greedy and play catch up. One way or another everything goes round in a circle, thankfully NI are here to help push things on. As for saying Vestex might be pissed at Native Instruments, hmmm, how well do you believe Vestax would of done in the last 3/4 years if it wasn't for N.I or even TechTools, the turntable market isn't exactly thriving and most scratch dj's finally know other battle mixers exist that you don't have to fit third party faders in to. Vestax have virtually been saved by the digital dj boom, so you would like to believe after all those VCI 100/300 sales they could come up with something special by now, which couldn't be further from the truth. The S4 is/should be giving every other manufacturer a much needed kick up the ass. N.I have yet to even make 10 pieces of hardware in there history and so far there showing much more experienced companys how to produce what the customer wants and at a fair price. When you compare what the other big brands are up to you gotta love the way N.I. work and have achieved in a small amount of time. Pioneer elitist price tag for cd players with big screens, usb and 3 hot cues Vestax ability to create groundbreaking dj gear once every 5 years but spend those 5 years in between going side ways rather than forwards, while still making everyone believe they make pro solid gear. And then there's Serato spending $$$ and years developing the Bridge, something so incredible that only 2% of there users will want or understand. |
| gabriel ortiz 31.12.2010 |
Originally Posted by bergen
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Its business, pure and simple. Before the announcement of the S4 a lot of people were begging NI for a tightly integrated Traktor mixer (myself included). NI listened and gave the customers what they asked for. I don't believe any business will ever fail using this strategy. (within reason of course) Also I believe its a little ridiculous to assume that NI is alienating third party vendors by producing a unit of their own. It was no secret that NI was producing a unit. Vestax & Denon knew about the S4 long before release date and released new controllers right around the same time the S4 dropped.If they did not believe they could profit they would not have released anything new. As long as Traktor supports MIDI every third party vendor has a fighting chance. NI releasing a unit may hurt sales a little but it will force them to get on the cutting edge and release controllers that are a step above the rest in order to compete. This is great for the consumer and more importantly the art of DJing. If third party vendors believe they can't compete and decide to hang it up and quit, so be it. I don't want something that doesn't meet/exceed the standard that NI has set anyway. If the controllers 3rd parties produce don't do well, it is no ones fault but there own. You can't go around pointing the finger at the other business and blame it for your (the company) failures. NI has raised the bar and now everyone must catch up. that being said, Im sure we will see third party Traktor/midi controllers for years to come.
Originally Posted by xtianw
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| Mathew Meins 30.12.2010 | I believe it's remarkable to compare NI's strategy to Apple's and then say it's going to be bad for them in the long run.... It hasn't really hurt Apple has it? I believe they'll just make a big part of the consumer base happy - the people that want tightly integrated systems that work out of the box, are extremely well built and intuitive. Basically, exactly what Apple do. A lot of users want to customize and build their own and feel like the setup is their own creation. There's room for both strategies on the market. |
| Zoila Arita 30.12.2010 | NI could go a couple ways with this depending on how things pan out. I can guarantee you they want to continue selling as many copies of Traktor as possible since software has pretty much zero marginal cost compared to a giant controller. Distribution and support are cheaper for software too. What I'm curious about is when the next version of Traktor Pro with the S4 features comes out. If they make a habit of the controller users getting the new stuff first that would send a pretty strong message about where their priorities lie. The other question I have is if they're going to open up the NHL(?) high-res jog wheel format to developers. I could see a strong case for a more compact "mini S4" without the jog wheels that would go great with a turntable controller like a simplified Numark N7 or Denon S3700. Isn't NAMM in a few weeks? We might get some answers then. |
| Tuyet Matis 29.12.2010 | I agree that it NI releasing the S4 does change things a bit for other companies who make controllers for Traktor, because when Vestax, Allen & Heath, etc. are competing, it is on the same level, in that none of them created the software, which would obviously give someone an edge. But, I don't believe the S4 will kill third party controllers. It may hurt their sales somewhat, but unless NI really sets out to make it so that Traktor S4 software only works with the S4, or works significantly better with the S4 than any other controller, I believe the other companies can still compete, should they decide to do so. In the end I believe it is to NI's benefit for them to still be able to make controllers that work well with Traktor. There are a couple of possible route's NI could take on this: 1. Make software that only works with the S4, or works significantly better with it, in which case people who want to use a controller have to chose either a Traktor+S4 combo, or use another controller of their choice + Serator, Virtual DJ, etc. 2. Continue to make the S4 controller but also fully support the efforts of other controller developers who make products to work with Traktor. Option one means people have to decide to use the NI software AND the hardware, it's all or nothing. Option two let's people choose to use NI's software but use a different hardware. I believe that NI will make more money, and gain more exposure by following the second option, which it seems like they're doing. But like I said, I agree that it is not business as usual for the controller manufacturers. I'm sure they weren't thrilled about the S4, but it's also not the end of the world for them, nor should it mean the end of their support for Traktor. And like Photojojo said earlier, one of the great things about MIDI is people can make controllers and let the end user decide what they want to ultimately use it with and how they want it mapped. Even with the extremely tight integration between the S4 software and hardware, one of the first things people seemed to believe about and discuss when it came out is making custom mappings. |
| Candace Carmouche 29.12.2010 |
Originally Posted by karl
although people assuming its business as usual regardless of the s4's release is a bit niave imo |
| Tuyet Matis 29.12.2010 | As a business I believe it makes sense to take the path of most profit. If companies believe that means only making contollers for Serato then that's up to them. I'm not trying to defend Apple, but rather say that I don't believe the comparison to Apple and Microsoft is very accurate or useful in discussing this issue. I hope other companies continue to make Traktor controllers and that they are successful. That way Traktor software and hardware will be pushed to continue to improve. |
| Leeanna Ayla 28.12.2010 | Serato controllers are built for Serato. Traktor controllers are built for whatever you want to map them to if it's Traktor then great, but it'll also work in Virtual DJ or Ableton or Mixx or whatever else accepts midi that you want to use it with. To believe that Vestax or anybody else will stop making controllers for all of the above software so they can stick it to NI because they came out with their own controllers doesn't make any sense to me. |
| Candace Carmouche 28.12.2010 |
Originally Posted by karl
Originally Posted by karl
|
| Tuyet Matis 28.12.2010 | Apple hasn't really dumped on third parties that work with Apple products. True, no other company can make hardware such as a computer or phone to run iOS or OSX, but between the iOS App Store and the upcoming Mac App Store, Apple has given a lot of developers a platform to make tons of money. Not to mention other accessories for Apple products such as iPhone/iPad cases. Also, there are plenty of software companies that make products that do the same thing as an Apple product, and yet are still successful, because they do in a way that is different and/or better, and that appeals to people. While a lot of people will love the S4, and NI has had no problem selling them, there are still plenty of people who will decide to use something else. I've read several community posts by people who say they tried the S4 and it wasn't for them, so they're going to stick with their VCI or some other controller. All the other controller manufacturers have seen the S4, they know the software features and what will likely be in the next versions of Traktor software, now it's on them to build a controller that is better than the S4. |
| Rolanda Bosiacki 28.12.2010 | Isn't Serato the one doing the bundling s***? Last time I checked, you couldn't buy Serato software without buying hardware at the same time. It's like Apple. You want OS X? You gotta buy Apple's overpriced hardware. NI, on the other hand, announced that the S4 software features such as the loop recorder and the sample decks will be available in a future iteration of Traktor (Scratch) Pro. |
| gabriel ortiz 28.12.2010 |
Originally Posted by photojojo
|
| Leeanna Ayla 28.12.2010 | No. |
| Nedra Fresneda 28.12.2010 | traktor pro is getting the new features, so they don't need to pirate anything. They just need to wait for the update, the same as the rest of TSP user base. In fact, Itch had it's doors closed to the rest of the controller market first and they still need their approval to get out of the box integration as they have with controllers such as allen's DX, etc. Best scenario would be if they start getting licenses for their products to work with NHL (better resolution), the same as mixers/soundcards to be scratch approved. PS: with the amount of versions of Traktor, I believe they fit more in the Windows profile... |
| Candace Carmouche 28.12.2010 |
Originally Posted by JesC
these are multi million dollar investments were talking about here. honestly, given what ive learned from the business world. If it was my call and i was lets say vestax, numark, amdj, or anyone else. I'd start making itch controllers. at least i wouldnt have to worry about competing with my platform provider. lets face it, NI has pretty much killed 3rd party innovation with the s4. yes, the software works with other controllers. but its not like vestax can tell their customers to pirate it to get any of its feature set. The smartest thing I believe NI can do for their long term books is just sell the s4 software on a model similar to what Serato is doing with the itch platform. Give a set of guidelines to make something "S4 Certified". Otherwise, given what Serato offers third parties in the way of an isv relationship, theres just no real incentive for these companies to invest millions into r&d and manufacturing in china to bring traktor controllers to market. They'll always be behind the "out of the box experience" the s4 provides. Don't you believe? |
| Cristian Carmona 28.12.2010 | the NI hardware that i own is great. X1 and maschine work flawless. I really cant speak for the S4 cuz I have had limited time with it. They really took the know how from the production gear they make and brougth it to the dj side. Now will this hurt 3 party controllers, I dont believe so. If anything its going to make them step up their game. |
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