midi controllers combine

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midi controllers combine
Posted on: 09.09.2008 by Mrinal Desai
hi there dudes,

i'm using vci 100 which i've recently bought with traktor and i believe it lacks knobs for some operations which would be great to do on the fly.

for example right now i can't find a free knob to assign the loop length to (1/4 beats, 1 beat, 4 beats, 16......).
also i can't figure out how to be able to run 2 effects at the same time and to be able to modify them simultaneously.
xone 1D would be perfect for these jobs, somebody could suggest something better and cheaper would be great)))))))

my questions:

1)can i operate traktor with 2 midi controllers at the same time? i don't see why not, just asking to be sure not to buy a second midi without purpose.

2)my sound interface Novation NIO often stucks at latencies less then 8ms, anybody had such issues? i guess it's not traktor (the program doesn't freeze) and the laptop is kindda sufficient for these operations : Dual 2 Duo 1.6 Gh, 1 Gb Ram.

any help is apreciated
Diogo Dj Dragão
10.09.2008
Originally Posted by hi_dub
nem0nic is generally right, but we're talking here about dj'ing, and if for example i want to cut out beats from a track with fader, a latency of 30ms can mean that i'll cut the beat not from the start, but from the middle. this is not tragic and you get used to it and act accordingly, but this is something can can be regulated, so why not try to do it.
The reality is that we compensate for those delays naturally in many common cases (for instance, when a DJ is playing off a mains that is located away from the DJ booth). I'm all for getting the best gear possible, and you KNOW I'm all about tweaking a system to get the best out of it. But I see misinformed people all the time throwing these numbers out there that are NEVER representative of ACTUAL latency. And even if you drop in on something like an RME interface and Mixvibes (total DVS latency is about 4ms), that single digit latency turns into double digit latency once the system is used in any "working" situation.

And please, if you're talking about a soundcard's latency and are using the number in the driver applet, please know that number does NOT represent in any way your actual latency.
Diogo Dj Dragão
09.09.2008
Originally Posted by barf
Of course nemonic, I never said 8ms was bad It's just that you should aim to be around 10ms, since you will feel difference from 20ms and higher (at least, I do).
I can promise you that if I were to test you like I've tested others using the same method laid out in the Centrance white paper, that you would NOT hear a 20ms latency. If you say you hear a difference, I would ask you where you're getting your numbers from and how are you testing to get that result?

That fact is that humans are great pattern recognition systems, and as long as the latency is CONSISTENT (which it would be if we're talking about driver buffers), you could easily perform as well as most DJs with as high as 80ms latency. That number might seem shocking, but when it's put into perspective with all the other latencies a DJ deals with at your average gig, it's not really the issue people make it out to be.

In some cases, lower latency is necessary - it all depends on how you perform. But to say that across the board 10ms is some kind of standard is not based in much fact.
Ryan Konarski
17.09.2008		there u go go with the xsession pro........yea i would love to have the xone 3d but im short on money.... but i love my vci
Mrinal Desai
17.09.2008		i've just checked ebay, you can get a x-session pro for almost $80 plus shipping from states. behringer is good but it's kindda too big to carry around, wouldn't fit in a standard bag.
at the moment i believe VCI + X-Session Pro is the best alternative for Xone 3d setup for a limited budget. i really look into it))))))))
Ryan Konarski
17.09.2008		get the behringer bcr 2000 or if you want something lighter and smaller get the maudio xsession pro u have 4 faders 16 knobs and 4 botton for a really good price maybe $98 BUCKS.......
Hannes Deburchgraeve
16.09.2008		You could get two VCI-100's and still pay less than the A&H controller.

I'm also looking for a solution to better looping as well. One solution I thought of:

I'm using version 1.3 of the firmware and the VCI-100SE TKS. Right now I'm planning to reassign my Deck C controls in the Effects area to looping. I'm not quite sure if 4 knobs and 4 buttons will be enough to do what I want, but it's worth a try.
Mrinal Desai
11.09.2008		ok, i believe i understand know what you mean, thank you)))))
Diogo Dj Dragão
10.09.2008		The actual latency depends on ALOT of things, not just the driver buffering. You can have an interface with great I/O but a high buffer have better overall latency than a card with poor I/O and a really low buffer.

Since everyone likes car analogies, it's kind of like comparing a car that weighs 300 pounds and has a 200hp motor against a car that weighs 1000 pounds and has a 400hp motor. Yes, the 400hp engine is bigger than the 200hp engine, but that doesn't guarantee that the 400hp car will be faster. In that example, it's highly likely that the lighter, lower horsepower car would be faster.

There isn't an easy way for a normal user to find the actual latency of their MIDI DJing rig. It would require comparing the time (down to the ms) that a switch was activated to the time that the desired sound was produced. You can't even fire off a MIDI message from a DAW and use that to start your sequence, because that doesn't take into account the delay in your controller OR the delay from the computer to process the incoming data. So getting the actual number is more complicated than most people realize.
Mrinal Desai
10.09.2008		or what will be the actual latency then??
Mrinal Desai
10.09.2008		what does it represent then?
Diogo Dj Dragão
10.09.2008
Originally Posted by hi_dub
nem0nic is generally right, but we're talking here about dj'ing, and if for example i want to cut out beats from a track with fader, a latency of 30ms can mean that i'll cut the beat not from the start, but from the middle. this is not tragic and you get used to it and act accordingly, but this is something can can be regulated, so why not try to do it.
The reality is that we compensate for those delays naturally in many common cases (for instance, when a DJ is playing off a mains that is located away from the DJ booth). I'm all for getting the best gear possible, and you KNOW I'm all about tweaking a system to get the best out of it. But I see misinformed people all the time throwing these numbers out there that are NEVER representative of ACTUAL latency. And even if you drop in on something like an RME interface and Mixvibes (total DVS latency is about 4ms), that single digit latency turns into double digit latency once the system is used in any "working" situation.

And please, if you're talking about a soundcard's latency and are using the number in the driver applet, please know that number does NOT represent in any way your actual latency.
Mrinal Desai
10.09.2008		nem0nic is generally right, but we're talking here about dj'ing, and if for example i want to cut out beats from a track with fader, a latency of 30ms can mean that i'll cut the beat not from the start, but from the middle. this is not tragic and you get used to it and act accordingly, but this is something can can be regulated, so why not try to do it.

also this is subjective, so one can feel most comfortable when he knows his setup is closest to the real thing)))))))
Red Sonya
09.09.2008		It's just that I'll feel it when I'm pressing a button. That happens when I'm using my internal soundcard with inears instead of my DJIO. Of course, it could just be that I'm feeling the difference between latencies, not latencies themselves. (2.5ms <-> 30ms). So when I'll be doing stuff with my internal soundcard, I'll always JUST be missing the beat etc, as compared to my DJIO.

Like you said, it'll probably be the difference I'm feeling, not some disadvantage through higher latency.
Diogo Dj Dragão
09.09.2008
Originally Posted by barf
Of course nemonic, I never said 8ms was bad It's just that you should aim to be around 10ms, since you will feel difference from 20ms and higher (at least, I do).
I can promise you that if I were to test you like I've tested others using the same method laid out in the Centrance white paper, that you would NOT hear a 20ms latency. If you say you hear a difference, I would ask you where you're getting your numbers from and how are you testing to get that result?

That fact is that humans are great pattern recognition systems, and as long as the latency is CONSISTENT (which it would be if we're talking about driver buffers), you could easily perform as well as most DJs with as high as 80ms latency. That number might seem shocking, but when it's put into perspective with all the other latencies a DJ deals with at your average gig, it's not really the issue people make it out to be.

In some cases, lower latency is necessary - it all depends on how you perform. But to say that across the board 10ms is some kind of standard is not based in much fact.
Red Sonya
09.09.2008		Of course nemonic, I never said 8ms was bad It's just that you should aim to be around 10ms, since you will feel difference from 20ms and higher (at least, I do).
Mrinal Desai
09.09.2008		nem0nic, thank you for the answer, most specific and comprehensive))))
Random X
09.09.2008		I rest my case barf.
Diogo Dj Dragão
09.09.2008		Latency in this context is pure dick measuring and not actually effecting your mix.

First of all, unless you've all set up a computer controlled servo to press a button on your controller and then compared that event to the output audio and calculated the actual latency, all the numbers getting thrown around in here are worthless. You guys are talking about the I/O buffer in your soundcard driver - which in NO WAY gives you a meaningful latency figure (not even the lowest possible latency).

Latency in the context that is actually meaningful to DJs is the latency between a physical movement and the effect of that movement (it's important to define physical here because other senses have different latencies - visual latency is over 100ms for example). The buffer setting for your soundcard doesn't tell you anything about this.

So stop worrying about those numbers. Adjust your latency as low as possible without getting underruns / dropouts). If the buffer needs to be very high in order for your soundcard to run without dropouts, then look into system optimization or a better soundcard. But arguing about the difference between 8ms and 10ms is stupid. Wanna hear what a 2ms difference sounds like? Move one of your speakers 2 feet further than the other one (then if you need to, adjust the levels or balance as needed). That's what a 2ms delay sounds like in real life. Sound travels roughly 11 feet in 10ms. It takes the human brain between 20-30ms to recognize a tonal sequence, and about 50ms to process speech.

You should be much more worried about the I/O capabilities and audio quality of your interface than whether it buffers audio for 8ms or 15ms.
Red Sonya
10.09.2008		That's something he doesn't want to do, since one should avoid going higher than 10 That's why he's asking for alternatives!
Random X
10.09.2008		often stucks or sucks?

In case of stucks, up the latency.
Red Sonya
10.09.2008		didn't he say "latencies less than 8ms" =O
Random X
09.09.2008
Originally Posted by barf
Tekki, he wants lower latencies than 8 ms, but his card gets stuck then

8ms ain't that bad tho.
Than he should consider writing lower latencies.... not higher.
Mrinal Desai
09.09.2008		barf, exactly
Red Sonya
09.09.2008		Tekki, he wants lower latencies than 8 ms, but his card gets stuck then

8ms ain't that bad tho.
Random X
09.09.2008		1) Yes!

[subjective mode]Go for a BCR2000.

2) LoLz, Latencies less than 8ms is what you should be aiming for?
The higher the latency, > 8ms, the worse your set will be.
Red Sonya
09.09.2008		1) jeeeeeB

Although: traktor can't work two effects on one deck simultanuously; a workaround is to use a master effect over a deck effect.

2) I'm using the numark DJIO getting 2.5ms. No experience with other cards

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