The right digital controller / soundcard to use next to turntables?

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The right digital controller / soundcard to use next to turntables?
Posted on: 04.03.2010 by Emerson Marousek
Hi,

my name is Flo, I'm from Germany (I say this because not all gear that you talk about might be available to me and vice versa) and for the last 10 years I've been (mostly bedroom-)mixing with two turntables and a Pioneer DJM 300.
This is my status quo:
  • My turntables are junk, but buying new ones I like will cost me more than any digital gear I've seen.
  • I won't start an international DJ career at 33 - meaning, my mixes will stay in my bedroom and the occasional house party.
  • Hence I spent way too much money on records - I would like to reduce costs for a track from 8-12 EUR currently (for a 12") to 1.00 - 1.49 EUR. (That's my main motivation to go digital).
  • I loooove mixing and recording those mixes.
  • I have a Mac.
  • I don't have any digital soundcard so far.
  • I could spend 500 - 700 EUR for gear .

This is what I would like to end up with:
  • Digital DJ Controller with good haptics (I believe I like rubberized jog dials more than shiny plastic ones)
  • I would like to use my old turntables in order to utilize my 5000+ record collection.
  • I would like to do a decent recording of my mixes but I won't get into studio production or anything like it.
  • I would like to learn and use effects on my mixes.
  • I love knobs more than sliders - faders with a knob would be great (instead of line faders) but is not a must (I actually never saw them on a digital DJ controller).
  • I have no use for a cross fader (I always mix with the line faders since it gives me more travel for a smoother mix). So a cross fader is not a must (but I guess they all come with it...)

So here are my questions:
  1. Any recommendations on gear besides the obvious VCI-100 and VCI-300?
  2. In order to use my turntables - do I need a controller that supports it (= has 2 line-ins) or could I connect them to a digital sound card and use the controller to mix? e.g. If I bought a VCI-100 and an external soundcard - can I still use my turntables as well?
  3. Has anyone actually used - over a substantive period of time - Reloop Equipment? They have a DIgital Jockey 2 Master Edition coming out that can be used as a standalone mixer as well - is that what I'm looking for?


Thanks for any hints or recommendations.


Cheers,


innersoul
Lacey Westergreen
04.04.2010
Originally Posted by innersoul
  1. Is this also true if I donot use more than 2 sources at a time (as described above)?
  2. I asked Reloop support about this and they gave me this answer: I don't really understand the last part - does that mean in either setup (VCI-100 or Reloop) I wouldn't be able to use line-faders / cross-faders / effects?
yep, it's the same...even when only using two sources at a time, you would have to switch the plugs on the back of your mixer to switch sources. way too much hustle.

yep, means you can't use the digital jockeys functions.

the master edition would be the perfect controller for you! you can have your turntables plugged in at all time and just switch each channel of the mixer individually to either control your software or the turntable!

die edith hat auch noch was zu sagen:
the vms4 can do the same things as the reloop master edition...so thats probably the better bang for the buck as you're getting a full blown four channel mixer and some touch controls at a slightly cheaper price. you could even assign two channels just for your turntables and two for your software and forget about the switching. plus it's gonna be availabe sooner.
i guess in the end your decision should be based on the build quality and the soundcard.
i suggest you order the vms4 from some german online store that has a good money back policy like thomann and just return it if you're not completely happy with it and go for the reloop instead
Emerson Marousek
06.03.2010		First, thanks for all your replies!
Originally Posted by Hippie
Intergrating digital decks into your existing vinyl setup is easy peasy m8. Serato and Traktor Scratch Pro were designed for exactly what u want to do, if I've read the thread correctly If u get TSP or Serato u can switch between digi and vinyl the way u want without having to upgrade your DJM300, I should add that there are other DVS available but TSP and Serato are the best imho.
[...]
I'd have a good look at Serato and Traktor Scratch Pro first, then start looking at the controllers available to complement them and utilise the features u believe you'll actually use m8 for the best bespoke separates setup.
[...]
Hope this give u some food for thought m8.
It definitely did, thanks for your explanations!
But actually, as I said, my turntables are junk, just my mixer is ok. So timecode vinyl is not really the way I want to go as this would require buying proper turntables first.
I would rather like to rely on a digital controller mainly, and from time to time use my old turntable(s) to mix a vinyl record into my mix.

Originally Posted by chrismp
well, the reloop controllers have one significant disadvantage: the lack of a four channel mixer. if you want to use that many sources it really helps to have full mixer control over them at all time.
That's true, hence the VMS4 sounds intriguing.
On the other hand, I usually mix only 2 sound sources at a time - so switching sources might not be a problem.
(However, I cannot foresee how digital mixing might change these preferences - maybe I also go 'multideck' )

Originally Posted by chrismp
if you had a vci-100 there would be a couple of setup options, but all of them require a soundcard that can handle all your sources (like the native instruments audio 8).
one option would be using a four channel mixer and you route all four audio signals (two coming from the tts two coming from traktor) to this mixer. that way you could assign the vci's mixer section to other features of traktor since you're already doing all the mixing externally.
another option is using the vci to mix internally in traktor and just output the master of traktor to an external mixer. that mixer only needs three channels since you only need to hook up three sources (one master from traktor + two tts). problem is that you have to use two seperate mixer controls to mix all your sources.
Thanks chrismp for explaining in detail!
  1. Is this also true if I donot use more than 2 sources at a time (as described above)?
  2. I asked Reloop support about this and they gave me this answer:
    Interface Edition: you can also connect ONE turntable - but the signal is looped either directly to the master or through the software - thus mixing with faders is not possible.
    I don't really understand the last part - does that mean in either setup (VCI-100 or Reloop) I wouldn't be able to use line-faders / cross-faders / effects?


Originally Posted by BigC
So for the more conservative price bracket, the VMS4 will be bringing a lot to the table. The thing about it is that it's not out yet, so we really don't know the set price or how good it will actually be. But it has the potential. 2 turntables and 2 jogwheels for 4 decks at once? That's what has people going crazy about this device.
The four channels are indeed intriguing. However, size-wise it's a completely different baby than a VCI-100 or the Reloop (which are very portable).
Also: I have no experience with this brand and haven't seen it in our local shops. Is the quality good in general?
BTW: Music shops here in Germany estimate a delivery date around the 25th of March for EUR 379 (around USD 510).
Emerson Marousek
05.03.2010
Originally Posted by BigC
I'd second taking a looks at some videos for this piece of gear , and waiting a month or so to see what it's actually like when it comes out.

It sounds like the VMS4 has the potential to be exactly what you would be looking for.
Thank you both, it looks good.
Actually, the Reloop Digital Jockey Master Edition seems to have very similar specs. I checked out the "little brother" - Interface Edition - today at our local music store and the "haptics" (especially the jog dials) are close to perfect.



Out of curiosity - if I had a VCI-100, what extra gear / wiring / setup would I need to integrate my turntables - a special soundcard or actually an extra mixer even?
Audrey Pinda
05.03.2010
Originally Posted by chrismp
maybe you should have a look at the american audio vms4...its a 4-channel analogue mixer and a midi controller in one. so you could have two decks coming from traktor as well as your turntables plugged in.
not available yet, but soon (about two weeks from now i believe).
no need for an external soundcard with this one as it has one already built in.
I'd second taking a looks at some videos for this piece of gear , and waiting a month or so to see what it's actually like when it comes out.

It sounds like the VMS4 has the potential to be exactly what you would be looking for.
Emerson Marousek
05.03.2010		Thanks for your reply!
Originally Posted by sj03w4t
Recommendations for gear: Implementing your turntables into a digital set up is quite difficult I believe. What would probably be your best shot is to go for external mixing (similar to your set up now) but with a 4-channel mixer. Two inputs can then be used for your turntables and the remaining two can be used in conjunction with either:
- 2 deck external mixing set up in Traktor
- up to 4 deck internal mixing set up in Traktor
I had hoped for a 'simpler' (= little gear and thus less money to spent, only a few cables) solution. I thought there are controllers out there who have Phono line-ins as well?

So my dream would be that I can simply switch between line-in (turntable) and internal (audios oftware on the Mac) sound sources (e.g. I have a crystal clear Carl Craig MP3 'spinning' on the left channel and want to mix a dirty Moodymann's 'Dem young sconies' Vinyl on the right channel into it...).
Originally Posted by sj03w4t
The advantage of the first option is that you have 1 mixer to control all decks, as opposed to 4 deck internal mixing which would require a seperate MIDI (digital) controller hooked up to the computer.
The advantage of the second option, however is that you need only a 3 deck external mixer (as opposed to 4 deck mixer) which could work out a little cheaper.
It's your own choice obviously but I believe 2 turntables + 2 deck external mixing in traktor is a great choice.
Things you are not able to do in this situation are:
- apply effects to the tracks on the turntables
That means I need a digital controller with 4 channels?

It's a lot to ask, but it would be great if you explained shortly on the example of a VCI-100 (that doesn't have any line-ins) or a VCI-300 (with only 1 line-in) what kind of setup I would need (controller, soundcard, additional mixer?). Because right now I can't picture it yet...?


Originally Posted by sj03w4t
edit: @ibarry: I don't believe he is looking for a time-coded set up since he has a collection of 5000+records vinyl..
That's right!
Emerson Marousek
04.03.2010		Hi,

my name is Flo, I'm from Germany (I say this because not all gear that you talk about might be available to me and vice versa) and for the last 10 years I've been (mostly bedroom-)mixing with two turntables and a Pioneer DJM 300.
This is my status quo:
  • My turntables are junk, but buying new ones I like will cost me more than any digital gear I've seen.
  • I won't start an international DJ career at 33 - meaning, my mixes will stay in my bedroom and the occasional house party.
  • Hence I spent way too much money on records - I would like to reduce costs for a track from 8-12 EUR currently (for a 12") to 1.00 - 1.49 EUR. (That's my main motivation to go digital).
  • I loooove mixing and recording those mixes.
  • I have a Mac.
  • I don't have any digital soundcard so far.
  • I could spend 500 - 700 EUR for gear .

This is what I would like to end up with:
  • Digital DJ Controller with good haptics (I believe I like rubberized jog dials more than shiny plastic ones)
  • I would like to use my old turntables in order to utilize my 5000+ record collection.
  • I would like to do a decent recording of my mixes but I won't get into studio production or anything like it.
  • I would like to learn and use effects on my mixes.
  • I love knobs more than sliders - faders with a knob would be great (instead of line faders) but is not a must (I actually never saw them on a digital DJ controller).
  • I have no use for a cross fader (I always mix with the line faders since it gives me more travel for a smoother mix). So a cross fader is not a must (but I guess they all come with it...)

So here are my questions:
  1. Any recommendations on gear besides the obvious VCI-100 and VCI-300?
  2. In order to use my turntables - do I need a controller that supports it (= has 2 line-ins) or could I connect them to a digital sound card and use the controller to mix? e.g. If I bought a VCI-100 and an external soundcard - can I still use my turntables as well?
  3. Has anyone actually used - over a substantive period of time - Reloop Equipment? They have a DIgital Jockey 2 Master Edition coming out that can be used as a standalone mixer as well - is that what I'm looking for?


Thanks for any hints or recommendations.


Cheers,


innersoul
Gregory Finely
13.04.2010		Xone 4D would allow you to do everything, I have Traktor and Ableton running through it into my Fostex monitors, and I also have my 1210's linked up to it as well.
Hipolito Scionti
13.04.2010		If you have a mixer already you just need digital controller and a soundcard.

You could plug one turntable into one phono line of the mixer and then the soundcard into a line (the other side of the crossfader) on the mixer.

I would suggest getting a VC1-100 cause i still believe (surprisingly) it's the best bit of kit out there. And an audio 2 dj soundcard.

Slowly you can start to digitise your vinyl and you'll find you won't need the turnatable... or the mixer
Emerson Marousek
13.04.2010		thanks for the tips.
I haven't touched the AA VMS4 yet, but just from the looks, I don't really like it. It's bulky and looks cheap.
The Reloop is sleek, clean and compact. I really liked the handling of the Interface Edition.

Also, the Master Edition has a 24-bit / 96 kHz soundcard now.
Lacey Westergreen
04.04.2010
Originally Posted by innersoul
  1. Is this also true if I donot use more than 2 sources at a time (as described above)?
  2. I asked Reloop support about this and they gave me this answer: I don't really understand the last part - does that mean in either setup (VCI-100 or Reloop) I wouldn't be able to use line-faders / cross-faders / effects?
yep, it's the same...even when only using two sources at a time, you would have to switch the plugs on the back of your mixer to switch sources. way too much hustle.

yep, means you can't use the digital jockeys functions.

the master edition would be the perfect controller for you! you can have your turntables plugged in at all time and just switch each channel of the mixer individually to either control your software or the turntable!

die edith hat auch noch was zu sagen:
the vms4 can do the same things as the reloop master edition...so thats probably the better bang for the buck as you're getting a full blown four channel mixer and some touch controls at a slightly cheaper price. you could even assign two channels just for your turntables and two for your software and forget about the switching. plus it's gonna be availabe sooner.
i guess in the end your decision should be based on the build quality and the soundcard.
i suggest you order the vms4 from some german online store that has a good money back policy like thomann and just return it if you're not completely happy with it and go for the reloop instead
Demetrius Hoft
04.04.2010		Digitise the records, then sell them and finally buy a xone 4d with the money you make.
Emerson Marousek
06.03.2010		First, thanks for all your replies!
Originally Posted by Hippie
Intergrating digital decks into your existing vinyl setup is easy peasy m8. Serato and Traktor Scratch Pro were designed for exactly what u want to do, if I've read the thread correctly If u get TSP or Serato u can switch between digi and vinyl the way u want without having to upgrade your DJM300, I should add that there are other DVS available but TSP and Serato are the best imho.
[...]
I'd have a good look at Serato and Traktor Scratch Pro first, then start looking at the controllers available to complement them and utilise the features u believe you'll actually use m8 for the best bespoke separates setup.
[...]
Hope this give u some food for thought m8.
It definitely did, thanks for your explanations!
But actually, as I said, my turntables are junk, just my mixer is ok. So timecode vinyl is not really the way I want to go as this would require buying proper turntables first.
I would rather like to rely on a digital controller mainly, and from time to time use my old turntable(s) to mix a vinyl record into my mix.

Originally Posted by chrismp
well, the reloop controllers have one significant disadvantage: the lack of a four channel mixer. if you want to use that many sources it really helps to have full mixer control over them at all time.
That's true, hence the VMS4 sounds intriguing.
On the other hand, I usually mix only 2 sound sources at a time - so switching sources might not be a problem.
(However, I cannot foresee how digital mixing might change these preferences - maybe I also go 'multideck' )

Originally Posted by chrismp
if you had a vci-100 there would be a couple of setup options, but all of them require a soundcard that can handle all your sources (like the native instruments audio 8).
one option would be using a four channel mixer and you route all four audio signals (two coming from the tts two coming from traktor) to this mixer. that way you could assign the vci's mixer section to other features of traktor since you're already doing all the mixing externally.
another option is using the vci to mix internally in traktor and just output the master of traktor to an external mixer. that mixer only needs three channels since you only need to hook up three sources (one master from traktor + two tts). problem is that you have to use two seperate mixer controls to mix all your sources.
Thanks chrismp for explaining in detail!
  1. Is this also true if I donot use more than 2 sources at a time (as described above)?
  2. I asked Reloop support about this and they gave me this answer:
    Interface Edition: you can also connect ONE turntable - but the signal is looped either directly to the master or through the software - thus mixing with faders is not possible.
    I don't really understand the last part - does that mean in either setup (VCI-100 or Reloop) I wouldn't be able to use line-faders / cross-faders / effects?


Originally Posted by BigC
So for the more conservative price bracket, the VMS4 will be bringing a lot to the table. The thing about it is that it's not out yet, so we really don't know the set price or how good it will actually be. But it has the potential. 2 turntables and 2 jogwheels for 4 decks at once? That's what has people going crazy about this device.
The four channels are indeed intriguing. However, size-wise it's a completely different baby than a VCI-100 or the Reloop (which are very portable).
Also: I have no experience with this brand and haven't seen it in our local shops. Is the quality good in general?
BTW: Music shops here in Germany estimate a delivery date around the 25th of March for EUR 379 (around USD 510).
Tania Somppi
06.03.2010		Hey Flo - welcome aboard m8

Intergrating digital decks into your existing vinyl setup is easy peasy m8. Serato and Traktor Scratch Pro were designed for exactly what u want to do, if I've read the thread correctly If u get TSP or Serato u can switch between digi and vinyl the way u want without having to upgrade your DJM300, I should add that there are other DVS available but TSP and Serato are the best imho.
I believe a controller like an NI Kontrol X1 to control Traktors loading, loops and FX would suit your needs perfectly, altho I know v.little about Serato as I'm a TSP and vinyl 4 deck spinner myself but I'm sure u could find something similar for doing the same with Serato. I've only reccomended the X1 as it's made by NI and mapped for your needs already, any midi controller can be used with Traktor so there are a lot of other choices available tbh, anything with enough knobs and buttons for the way you want to use Traktor's features will do the job as Traktor's controller mapping capabilities are very versatile and there's a lot of help here at DJTT with all that mapping stuff.
Then later upgrade to a 4 channel mixer if u want a 4 deck setup, if u go the TSP route as u get 4 stereo deck outputs with TSP, and still have the option to add virtual deck controllers like the VCI 100/reloop/Imix/xponent/scs etc to the same setup if u want jogwheels to play with alongside the timecodes or vinyls.

I'd have a good look at Serato and Traktor Scratch Pro first, then start looking at the controllers available to complement them and utilise the features u believe you'll actually use m8 for the best bespoke separates setup.

If u want a more all in 1 solution there's always the Xone DX if u save up a little which gives 4 deck support like the VMS4 and 4D mentioned already, the Xponent for 2 deck play, and some new offerings from Numark which Ean has reviewed. Personally I don't like em tho as none of them do what I want or have all the features I want straight out of the box and if 1 piece fails in a separates setup then u only have to fix/replace that piece.

Hope this give u some food for thought m8.
Audrey Pinda
05.03.2010		The big reason I recommended the VMS4 above is because of the built in 4 channel mixer. That's what sets it apart from the general run of things controller wise at the moment, because most controllers are only 2 channel.

With 4 channel you can have everything hooked up and go, with 2 channel you would have to switch back and forth basically, as far as I know. There are some fancy ways to get around it by mixing a bit internally, but having a 4 chan mixer from the getgo is the way to go.

VMS4: (Guess on price is going to be around $600ish)


The only thing really like it, and I say this because the VMS4 is said to mix externally as well as internally, is the Xone 4D.

At a much higher price, with the Allen and Heath build quality:



So for the more conservative price bracket, the VMS4 will be bringing a lot to the table. The thing about it is that it's not out yet, so we really don't know the set price or how good it will actually be. But it has the potential. 2 turntables and 2 jogwheels for 4 decks at once? That's what has people going crazy about this device.
Lacey Westergreen
05.03.2010		well, the reloop controllers have one significant disadvantage: the lack of a four channel mixer. if you want to use that many sources it really helps to have full mixer control over them at all time.

if you had a vci-100 there would be a couple of setup options, but all of them require a soundcard that can handle all your sources (like the native instruments audio 8).
one option would be using a four channel mixer and you route all four audio signals (two coming from the tts two coming from traktor) to this mixer. that way you could assign the vci's mixer section to other features of traktor since you're already doing all the mixing externally.
another option is using the vci to mix internally in traktor and just output the master of traktor to an external mixer. that mixer only needs three channels since you only need to hook up three sources (one master from traktor + two tts). problem is that you have to use two seperate mixer controls to mix all your sources.
Emerson Marousek
05.03.2010
Originally Posted by BigC
I'd second taking a looks at some videos for this piece of gear , and waiting a month or so to see what it's actually like when it comes out.

It sounds like the VMS4 has the potential to be exactly what you would be looking for.
Thank you both, it looks good.
Actually, the Reloop Digital Jockey Master Edition seems to have very similar specs. I checked out the "little brother" - Interface Edition - today at our local music store and the "haptics" (especially the jog dials) are close to perfect.



Out of curiosity - if I had a VCI-100, what extra gear / wiring / setup would I need to integrate my turntables - a special soundcard or actually an extra mixer even?
Audrey Pinda
05.03.2010
Originally Posted by chrismp
maybe you should have a look at the american audio vms4...its a 4-channel analogue mixer and a midi controller in one. so you could have two decks coming from traktor as well as your turntables plugged in.
not available yet, but soon (about two weeks from now i believe).
no need for an external soundcard with this one as it has one already built in.
I'd second taking a looks at some videos for this piece of gear , and waiting a month or so to see what it's actually like when it comes out.

It sounds like the VMS4 has the potential to be exactly what you would be looking for.
Lacey Westergreen
05.03.2010		maybe you should have a look at the american audio vms4...its a 4-channel analogue mixer and a midi controller in one. so you could have two decks coming from traktor as well as your turntables plugged in.
not available yet, but soon (about two weeks from now i believe).
no need for an external soundcard with this one as it has one already built in.
Emerson Marousek
05.03.2010		Thanks for your reply!
Originally Posted by sj03w4t
Recommendations for gear: Implementing your turntables into a digital set up is quite difficult I believe. What would probably be your best shot is to go for external mixing (similar to your set up now) but with a 4-channel mixer. Two inputs can then be used for your turntables and the remaining two can be used in conjunction with either:
- 2 deck external mixing set up in Traktor
- up to 4 deck internal mixing set up in Traktor
I had hoped for a 'simpler' (= little gear and thus less money to spent, only a few cables) solution. I thought there are controllers out there who have Phono line-ins as well?

So my dream would be that I can simply switch between line-in (turntable) and internal (audios oftware on the Mac) sound sources (e.g. I have a crystal clear Carl Craig MP3 'spinning' on the left channel and want to mix a dirty Moodymann's 'Dem young sconies' Vinyl on the right channel into it...).
Originally Posted by sj03w4t
The advantage of the first option is that you have 1 mixer to control all decks, as opposed to 4 deck internal mixing which would require a seperate MIDI (digital) controller hooked up to the computer.
The advantage of the second option, however is that you need only a 3 deck external mixer (as opposed to 4 deck mixer) which could work out a little cheaper.
It's your own choice obviously but I believe 2 turntables + 2 deck external mixing in traktor is a great choice.
Things you are not able to do in this situation are:
- apply effects to the tracks on the turntables
That means I need a digital controller with 4 channels?

It's a lot to ask, but it would be great if you explained shortly on the example of a VCI-100 (that doesn't have any line-ins) or a VCI-300 (with only 1 line-in) what kind of setup I would need (controller, soundcard, additional mixer?). Because right now I can't picture it yet...?


Originally Posted by sj03w4t
edit: @ibarry: I don't believe he is looking for a time-coded set up since he has a collection of 5000+records vinyl..
That's right!
Jayne Yellowhair
04.03.2010		Dear Flo/innersoul,
first off: welcome to DJTT I loved your well-structured post and I believe you have thought about it for a while. Therefore I will take my time to make a proper reply to try to answer some of your questions.

Concerning availability of gear: I believe acquiring gear in Germany shouldn't be too much trouble. www.thomann.de is one of Europe's best dj stores, and I'm sure Germany has more than that. I'm from Holland, and there are also great dutch stores.

Recommendations for gear: Implementing your turntables into a digital set up is quite difficult I believe. What would probably be your best shot is to go for external mixing (similar to your set up now) but with a 4-channel mixer. Two inputs can then be used for your turntables and the remaining two can be used in conjunction with either:
- 2 deck external mixing set up in Traktor
- up to 4 deck internal mixing set up in Traktor
The advantage of the first option is that you have 1 mixer to control all decks, as opposed to 4 deck internal mixing which would require a seperate MIDI (digital) controller hooked up to the computer.
The advantage of the second option, however is that you need only a 3 deck external mixer (as opposed to 4 deck mixer) which could work out a little cheaper.
It's your own choice obviously but I believe 2 turntables + 2 deck external mixing in traktor is a great choice.
Things you are not able to do in this situation are:
- apply effects to the tracks on the turntables

I hope to have answered your second question as well with this post.

Your 3rd question: sorry, I have no experience with Reloop.

hope to have helped at least a little ,
sj03w4t

edit: @ibarry: I don't believe he is looking for a time-coded set up since he has a collection of 5000+records vinyl..
Cedric Ojha
04.03.2010		I personally use the vci-100 so I am a tad biased. To use timecode vinyl all you need are timecoded vinyl, supported sound card and software.

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