Want to buy a "traditional" midrange priced DJ controller? Consider the APC40!
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Want to buy a "traditional" midrange priced DJ controller? Consider the APC40! Posted on: 02.05.2010 by Geoffrey Deshano I know a lot of laptop DJ/controllerists who work with "traditional" DJ progs like Traktor, Virtual DJ, Serato etc. will consider buying a controller that looks like having 2 CDJs. At first sight, this seems like the most logical choice. These DJ programs basically look like having 2 (or 4) decks. Additionally you will have more effects, more EQ options, more hotcue options, etc. Controllers like the VCI-100 and Torq Xponent will probably be the first things you will consider buying. They look a lot like having 2 CDJs with a mixer and extra effect and hotcue buttons. But believe about this: a DJ controller is just a MIDI controller, it sends and a recieves MIDI signals. You can map it any way you want and with a bit of practice, you will get used to your mapping. The VCI-100 and Torq Xponent are two popular DJ MIDI controllers in the 400-500 dollar/euro pricerange. The Akai APC40 is also a MIDI controller in that pricerange. It does not have much text written next to it's buttons and therefore you might believe that the buttons are not meant to control "traditional" DJ-ing options. APC stands for Ableton PRofessional Controller, so you might believe that it is not meant for other DJ programs. Both claims are far from true. It is probably one of the most robust and multi-functional (a lot of buttons and mapping options) controllers in it's pricerange. I went to an audio store and tested the VCI-100 and Torq Xponent, and at home I played around with my housemate's APC40. The quality of the buttons and faders of the APC40 are significantly better than the VCI-100 and Torq Xponent. If you want to mess around with four decks and create true controllerism mayhem, it will give you a hell lot more cuepoints and looping options. Just type in "APC40 traktor pro" in google:: http://www.listentopro.com/community /sho...d.php?p=637168 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuJQjrDj96g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf0B1k_8vRQ Also keep this in mind: DJing is fun, but creating your own songs/samples and adding them into your own live set is the next step. The APC40 + Ableton are a great tool for that. If you will use another program than Ableton, I am 100% sure you will be able to map your APC40 to that. The only downside is that your APC40 does not have jogwheels. Then again: will you be using a 400 dollar range controller for turntablism? The VCI-100 offers pretty good jogwheels, but still I do not believe they are really meant to do a lot of scratching with. I don't mean this thread as a commercial for Akai or bashing of Vestax and M-Audio, I just want to give my personal advice based on my own experience. | |
| Dorie Scelzo 27.05.2010 | But why would you make a simple 2-deck setup in Ableton? I understand the appeal of DJing with it and not doing live production, believe me |
| Dorie Scelzo 27.05.2010 | But why would you make a simple 2-deck setup in Ableton? I understand the appeal of DJing with it and not doing live production, believe me |
| Dorie Scelzo 27.05.2010 | But why would you make a simple 2-deck setup in Ableton? I understand the appeal of DJing with it and not doing live production, believe me |
| Dorie Scelzo 27.05.2010 | But why would you make a simple 2-deck setup in Ableton? I understand the appeal of DJing with it and not doing live production, believe me |
| Dorie Scelzo 27.05.2010 | But why would you make a simple 2-deck setup in Ableton? I understand the appeal of DJing with it and not doing live production, believe me |
| Dorie Scelzo 27.05.2010 | But why would you make a simple 2-deck setup in Ableton? I understand the appeal of DJing with it and not doing live production, believe me |
| Dorie Scelzo 27.05.2010 | But why would you make a simple 2-deck setup in Ableton? I understand the appeal of DJing with it and not doing live production, believe me |
| Dorie Scelzo 27.05.2010 | But why would you make a simple 2-deck setup in Ableton? I understand the appeal of DJing with it and not doing live production, believe me |
| Dorie Scelzo 26.05.2010 | Cool. That works for you. There's no reason you should change the way you work because I believe it's badly designed. I look at that thing, and I see convoluted mappings that I don't want to deal with. I had written it off before I knew what its default mappings were. In 20 years, I honestly believe we're going to look at most of the controllers of today as though they were made in the dark ages. Bomes & m4l are great starts, as is the Jazzmutant stuff |
| Dorie Scelzo 25.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by chelskisw6
For me, it was simple |
| Geoffrey Deshano 25.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
I did my first traktor gig with it last weekend, and believe me, you really get easily used to the mappings! without any stickers telling you what is what... Right now I am mapping it for some of the Fader FX stuff ean golden does on the VCI100SE, goes pretty neat as well. And how can you say that the LD2 has more options than the APC40? The APC40 has those 16 knobs, with 8 of them being easily bidirectionally programmed so they are actually mapped to 8 pages, so 8x8 = 64 fully mappable knobs that change thair state to whatever button you program them to. MIDI mapping is as complex as you want it to be, one button can do many things. The APC40 is really worth the money, I even have spoken about this with people studying at the music academy. The feeling is great, the amount of buttons and built in routing is great. It is really 100% worth the money. All those controllers you mentioned for traditional DJing are built with much cheaper components and give less functionality. If they were sold for 30% of their actual price, fair deal. But for being in the same pricerange as the APC40, noooo way. As I mentioned before, the fact that they look as if they "make more sense" for traditional DJing is just a way to lure you into buying them. Believe me, you will definitley get used to he APC40 for programs like traktor. It is a matter of practice. And I am not talking about 8 hours per day, just a little bit. You will remember which button does what. Do piano players have labels on their keys? |
| Hayden Hoen 25.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
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| Dorie Scelzo 26.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by chelskisw6
Honestly, I believe it's one of the worst controllers out there. For a traditional DJ program (things that look like Traktor), almost every entry is more straightforward and IMO that just makes them better. I don't want 40 identical-looking buttons to keep track of in my head or with shoddy labels, even if they're colored. I don't want the controller to completely lack obvious EQ controls. For a traditional DJ program, any variation of the VCI series, the TR-1, the faderfox dj2, the xponent, even the hercules stuff…they're all more straightforward and laid out in a way that makes sense for traditional DJing. But the thing was designed for Ableton Live, and I also believe it sucks at that for a lot of the same reasons. Yes, it has EQ controls…but they suck. It's device control paradigm is asinine, along with every other controller that shares it (including my VCM, though I've defeated it in Ableton's setup). You won't get the direct control you want without finding it first, and if you select the device wrong, there's almost no telling what you're going to actually be doing. If you're using a lot of dummy clips for your effects, I can see the thing being more useful, but it seems like the technique is just meant to make up for the shortcomings of Ableton controllers. As far as what's better, the VCM-600 (that I know costs 3-4x as much) is more than twice the controller. But, honestly, so is the faderfox LD2. It's not obvious, but the thing can do more than the APC-40 even if it's almost as convoluted to get to. And if you want the controllerism thing, just build the controller you see in your head. Midibox stuff isn't that hard to work with, and if you have an idea of what you want to do, you'll wind up with something a LOT better than the apc-40. |
| Hayden Hoen 25.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
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| Dorie Scelzo 23.05.2010 | Personally, I believe the APC-40 is a complete failure. It doesn't have a straightforward EQ section; it has far too many channels if you're not using multi-tracks (in Ableton); it's weird to label things |
| Dorie Scelzo 28.05.2010 | That's a legitimate argument, but I–obviously–don't like the rack control paradigm they've developed. I actually have my "effects" section (similar to the way it works on the APC) locked to a rack that doesn't do anything and the midi control codes mapped to something useful. For me, the assignment isn't flexible enough. If you could make a rack that you could map controls from anywhere to, it would work better…but that would be analogous to pages that don't work as well as just having more controls. I will say that the VMC is lacking on endless encoders (i'd kinda like a few) as well as obvious clip controls…things like looping, clip start/end, scrubbing, transpose, gain…many of them only make sense on endless encoders, and because they have to follow selection, it only makes sense to have them in a section by themselves somewhere. It doesn't bother me that much, but it's one of the reasons that makes me believe that we're all going to look back at these belated but early attempts as failures. |
| Reece Murray 28.05.2010 | Yeah, two decks I was believeing for your average Traktor user. For Ableton alone, I am actually very comfortable with the handshake/standard layout. It's all about the racks, so any track you select has all the relevant controls right at your fingertips. But like i said, bomes can help get you into a whole 'nother world of flexibility, with cool hybrids of multi-banking and user-defined control. I like the vcm-600 a lot, and actually considered it before I bought the APC. (I was basically just in the market for 4 more faders, but ended up with a bit more, lol!) I just decided in the end that I could do with more buttons, and the 600 was a bit out of my price range. And after seeing what people could do with the Monome, I got set on the idea of building my own step sequencer in Live. Damn, now ALL the buttons on my APC do something, and I still don't have enough. Oh well. Build my own or get a monome 64, I guess. |
| Dorie Scelzo 27.05.2010 | But why would you make a simple 2-deck setup in Ableton? I understand the appeal of DJing with it and not doing live production, believe me |
| Reece Murray 27.05.2010 | I totally understand the organizational/spacial perspective. I'm the same way actually. I believe my acceptance of layers/pages has more to do with wanting EVERYTHING, but not being willing to shell out the dough for that many physical controls. I look at it kind of like a puzzle. How can I get the most functionality out of a couple pieces of gear, while keeping things simple and intuitive. I've found that everything + the kitchen sink is not always all that. Sometimes it's better to have a simple mapping with just the essentials. As for the placement of the APC knobs though, honestly you get used to it in no time. For a simple 2 deck setup, I'd recommend the top 2 rows control gain and eqs (1 deck per row), and the bottom two rows can control fx units 1 and 2. Everything's always in the same place, no layers. Works out pretty well. |
| Dorie Scelzo 27.05.2010 | They're not in the right place to make sense to me, and that negates using them for effects at the same time. It's a personal problem…I don't like pages. |
| Mirta Follweiler 27.05.2010 | I don't get it. You get 16 MIDi-assignable knobs, why not just assign 6 of those to EQ? |
| Audrey Pinda 27.05.2010 | The lack of EQ's is what gets me on the APC 40. I realize it works quite well for a lot of folks, but it's the sheer reason why I can't get my head around buying one. I wish they would come out with an APC 40 XL or some such thing, than literally just had 3 knobs above each of the channels. If they did that, I would say the controller would be complete. But that, once again, is why it's good to look around. Awesome if you like it though, it seems a solid piece of kit and I have seen people playing out with it. |
| Dorie Scelzo 26.05.2010 | Cool. That works for you. There's no reason you should change the way you work because I believe it's badly designed. I look at that thing, and I see convoluted mappings that I don't want to deal with. I had written it off before I knew what its default mappings were. In 20 years, I honestly believe we're going to look at most of the controllers of today as though they were made in the dark ages. Bomes & m4l are great starts, as is the Jazzmutant stuff |
| Reece Murray 26.05.2010 | @Mostapha: Wow, such venom! Dude, the old "here's my decks and a mixer" paradigm doesn't hold a lot of weight if you are a creative believeer. Just accepting Ableton's mapping strategy might lead you to believe that the APC isn't "good" for djing. But believeing outside the box, doing the mapping yourself and being good at it opens up a world of possibilities. Throw in Bome's MT (my weapon of choice), or M4L and you are limited literally only by your imagination. The APC is just a collection of knobs, buttons and faders. The arrangement of controls is up to you - but what makes or breaks that unit is how it's mapped, IMHO. I rock that box like crazy, but it took a long time to refine. I believe it's bullshit to need everything laid out like a traditional mixer, you just need to be smart about how you do it. Notice how there's 4 knobs in a row left to right? Perfect for gain and 3 eqs for decks stacked on top of each other, rather than side by side. FX? Always in the same location, accessible via banks. One touch, and I know exactly what I'm controlling, and what it does. I'll argue to the end that my APC40 setup is fast, intuitive, easy to use because I don't limit myself by Ableton's system AND because I have no need to approach djing rooted in a traditionalist mindset. I need all of those colored buttons to do what I do. Check it: Traktor + Ableton, both fully functional, synced 4 decks, 4 clip channels 1 step sequencer live sampling and resequencing recording everything no more than a [shift] press to access any function 1 APC40 |
| Dorie Scelzo 25.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by chelskisw6
For me, it was simple |
| Geoffrey Deshano 25.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
I did my first traktor gig with it last weekend, and believe me, you really get easily used to the mappings! without any stickers telling you what is what... Right now I am mapping it for some of the Fader FX stuff ean golden does on the VCI100SE, goes pretty neat as well. And how can you say that the LD2 has more options than the APC40? The APC40 has those 16 knobs, with 8 of them being easily bidirectionally programmed so they are actually mapped to 8 pages, so 8x8 = 64 fully mappable knobs that change thair state to whatever button you program them to. MIDI mapping is as complex as you want it to be, one button can do many things. The APC40 is really worth the money, I even have spoken about this with people studying at the music academy. The feeling is great, the amount of buttons and built in routing is great. It is really 100% worth the money. All those controllers you mentioned for traditional DJing are built with much cheaper components and give less functionality. If they were sold for 30% of their actual price, fair deal. But for being in the same pricerange as the APC40, noooo way. As I mentioned before, the fact that they look as if they "make more sense" for traditional DJing is just a way to lure you into buying them. Believe me, you will definitley get used to he APC40 for programs like traktor. It is a matter of practice. And I am not talking about 8 hours per day, just a little bit. You will remember which button does what. Do piano players have labels on their keys? |
| Hayden Hoen 25.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
|
| Dorie Scelzo 26.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by chelskisw6
Honestly, I believe it's one of the worst controllers out there. For a traditional DJ program (things that look like Traktor), almost every entry is more straightforward and IMO that just makes them better. I don't want 40 identical-looking buttons to keep track of in my head or with shoddy labels, even if they're colored. I don't want the controller to completely lack obvious EQ controls. For a traditional DJ program, any variation of the VCI series, the TR-1, the faderfox dj2, the xponent, even the hercules stuff…they're all more straightforward and laid out in a way that makes sense for traditional DJing. But the thing was designed for Ableton Live, and I also believe it sucks at that for a lot of the same reasons. Yes, it has EQ controls…but they suck. It's device control paradigm is asinine, along with every other controller that shares it (including my VCM, though I've defeated it in Ableton's setup). You won't get the direct control you want without finding it first, and if you select the device wrong, there's almost no telling what you're going to actually be doing. If you're using a lot of dummy clips for your effects, I can see the thing being more useful, but it seems like the technique is just meant to make up for the shortcomings of Ableton controllers. As far as what's better, the VCM-600 (that I know costs 3-4x as much) is more than twice the controller. But, honestly, so is the faderfox LD2. It's not obvious, but the thing can do more than the APC-40 even if it's almost as convoluted to get to. And if you want the controllerism thing, just build the controller you see in your head. Midibox stuff isn't that hard to work with, and if you have an idea of what you want to do, you'll wind up with something a LOT better than the apc-40. |
| Hayden Hoen 25.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
|
| Dorie Scelzo 23.05.2010 | Personally, I believe the APC-40 is a complete failure. It doesn't have a straightforward EQ section; it has far too many channels if you're not using multi-tracks (in Ableton); it's weird to label things |
| juan garcia 23.05.2010 | korg koss or something like that? fyi the apc40 is like $253 at amazon.com |
| Berta Baie 23.05.2010 | thanks for the post, i've been considering getting the APC 40 for a while now but was unsure if I could use it effectively with Traktor if i so choose to go down that route as opposed to using Abelton. Looks like you sold me on it btw what is that trippy little red touch controller the guy in the second video is using? (that thing looks pretty interesting...) |
| Alisha Kunnath 22.05.2010 | What is the other controller that he uses in the first video? |
| Reece Murray 07.05.2010 | I use an APC40 in a hybrid Traktor/Live setup where full functionality for both programs is maintained (Bomes MT is mandatory). The APC has been challenging to map, but very rewarding in the end. It's kind of like a virtual mixer, and "main brain" of my rig. My VCI is like an auxilliary controller that I use on the side. The more I worked with it, the more I started to believe that it is a really insane bargain. The build quality is fantastic, faders feel great, it has a zillion controls, and it's pretty much a blank slate for custom programming. Add to that it's native automapping within Live, and you really get bang for your buck. I got mine for $350 US with a guitar center coupon! I tried to take a poll on how windows users were faring with led programming (many problems), but I never really got any replies. I can't make a recommendation for windows, but with a mac this unit is a beast. The deal with jog wheels is that they are much more playable. The movement is a gesture, rather than a "twisting". I can say without hesitation that jogs have a better "expression" over knobs doing the same thing. Also, if you do want to scratch on a controller, you have to have jogs IMHO. |
| Nilsa Erben 04.05.2010 |
Originally Posted by Navcore
Curious what sort of mappings you could do with this thing...Akai makes solid stuff, and the price is right. |
| Geoffrey Deshano 03.05.2010 | btw, the grid on the APC40 can be programmed to do ANYTHING: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S-v-Gkiajs check out the program Monomulator and change the grid into a very advanced music controller. |
| Geoffrey Deshano 03.05.2010 | I just wonder, can anyone tell me something you can do with a jogwheel and not with a knob, except for scratching? |
| Wai Rofkahr 03.05.2010 | Mmmm... looked a little disorganized to me, but that could change if I programed the buttons myself. Personally, I believe the ideal setup would be a VCI-100/time-coded decks to control Traktor, and the APC40 to control Ableton |
| Graham Frazier 04.05.2010 | +1 I still use timecode's on decks A&B, so no need for jog's there. And I've been looking at possibly getting some xp5's for decks C&D. But i dont really need the audio outs, but the midi jogs would be nice. |
| Arcelia Siebeneck 03.05.2010 | agreed - and why not team it up with a pair of EKS XP5/10s if you really need jog wheels (or go down the CDJ / Traktor Scratch route) |
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