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Is there a better way to pan things...

Home :: Producer tips and DAW information :: Is there a better way to pan things...Reply

Is there a better way to pan things... Posted on: 08.04.2013 by Berta Baie ...than I'm currently doing it? There has to be. I have a love-hate relationship with panning. I constantly want to create these awesome, 3D sounding, mixes where i can place things individually in space, everything sits perfectly, and we all live happily ever after. This effect is rarely as good as i'd like it to be however. Right now if i want to have something panned out of both ears, lets say 15L and 15 R, i currently double the track and simply pan one to the left and one to the right. This is kind of a pain in the ass and eats up CPU power in the process. Is there a better way of doing this using just one track that i'm missing?
Trey Brune 11.04.2013	Originally Posted by grazz16 And yet it seems to work in my mixes. It certainly doesnt sound like its coming back out of the centre otherwise i wouldnt be doing it. Sounds like one channel is coming out of 15 Left, and the other out of 15 right, which is the intended effect. Could it be that the effects i have on the channels are naturally fixing that summing issue for me somehow without knowing it? Effects? Of course that's fixing the issue! I was talking about duplicating a single mono channel that isn't being sent to any stereo effects. If you pan the original and the duplicate at the same amount L + R you get Mono. Stereo effects will obviously make it sound stereo, where you might as well just be using your 1 channel, since having the 1 and the duplicate panned like that is equal to panned center anyway! Originally Posted by grazz16 I just tried throwing Ableton's phase utility on the track, panning the track to the left, and then setting the phase utility's pan control to the right and clicking the "phase R" button. Seemed to give it some stereo width, or is that another way of just summing the track again? That is not at all how I meant you to use it. You want one track panned to Left (however much you want) and a duplicate panned the same amount to the right. At this point it will still sound like it's coming from center, since they are equally loud, same phase and in equal distance in stereo. On either of the two tracks you want to shift the phase a bit, just the one! Because you are changing the time at which the wave starts you get small phase differences between the two tracks. When shifting there is a point between them summing to center, and sounding like two separate sources, where our brain believes it sounds like 1 source in stereo. You want to find that point and just adjust until you get the desired width. (You can always manually adjust phase by dragging one of the tracks waves a bit farther in your arrangement window). The progression in phase works like this: In-phase (perfect center, +3db's from volume increase) -> Confusion zone (phase difference big enough not to be center summed, but not big enough to be 2 sources or delay) (This is where a single element sounds like it's coming out of left + right, versus center) -> 2 Sources (phase difference big enough that our ears clearly hear two seperate sources) -> Delay (Huge difference in time). Originally Posted by grazz16 I may not even be stating the desired effect properly. Essentially the problem looks like this: 1. I want to pan certain sounds to fill out the mix. 2. However i also want my mix to be balanced. 3. Thus if i pan one sound to the left it throws off the mix. 4. Therefore I want that same sound coming out of both channels so it's balanced, but while also keeping it's place where i panned it. How is this normally done? With utilities/phasing as mentioned? Or is there another way this re-stating of the problem makes clearer? 1. You're going to have to pan no matter what, nobody will willingly listen to mono. 2. Understand that a mix consists of both spacial arrangement and frequencies working together. 3. Then balance it! 4. Sounds like you're building space after the fact, you need to be making spacial decisions from the start when mixing. You're making this too complicated. Professional engineers might have access to tons of tricks and utilities, but even on a nice big analog table these are your main tools: - EQ - Compression - Panning - Levels Heavy emphasis on panning for you! The EQ is used to balance everything in terms of frequencies. Compression is to balance dynamics. Panning balances space/width, and levels balance volume. It's all about balancing these aspects together! In my last reply I already went over things you can do to make a mono channel sound stereo, but honestly, you shouldn't rely on that! A good mix is often executed by tactfully panning your existing sources and EQ-ing them properly. Once you have a nice balance, then you can start worrying about reverbs, effects, delays, phasing, etc. Those are there to add space if you need it. If you really want I can go over a realistic situation in how to approach doing this, even for electronic music. In any case I hope this clears things up for you.
Berta Baie 10.04.2013	Originally Posted by Kill.I.am What do you mean by that? Of course the utility trick makes it louder, because you're basically duplicating the signal, you get the same effect by using the same track twice. Or do I get you wrong here? The idea is not so much to make the signal louder but just to come out of the left and right channels equally. Putting 2 utilities on it allows you to achieve that but makes the track super loud. No big deal, you can just turn it down, and I did. But then the track wouldnt follow the volume automation i had in the same effects rack. It just stayed loud no matter what. What I did instead was used a bit of side EQ to boost the ends of the spectrum which seemed to spread it out in the mix more.
Starla Lansdon 10.04.2013	Originally Posted by grazz16 edit: actually, the utility trick made things very loud and wouldn't follow my volume automation, the mid-side EQ is prob the better option here What do you mean by that? Of course the utility trick makes it louder, because you're basically duplicating the signal, you get the same effect by using the same track twice. Or do I get you wrong here?
Berta Baie 08.04.2013	Originally Posted by Kill.I.am Since my English is not that upper class, hopefully this can help clarify things: Bildschirmfoto 2013-04-08 um 23.11.52.jpg yes it does, thanks man, audio effects racks really are like the solution to all life's problems in Ableton arent they :P edit: actually, the utility trick made things very loud and wouldn't follow my volume automation, the mid-side EQ is prob the better option here
Starla Lansdon 08.04.2013	Since my English is not that upper class, hopefully this can help clarify things: Bildschirmfoto 2013-04-08 um 23.11.52.jpg
Berta Baie 08.04.2013	...than I'm currently doing it? There has to be. I have a love-hate relationship with panning. I constantly want to create these awesome, 3D sounding, mixes where i can place things individually in space, everything sits perfectly, and we all live happily ever after. This effect is rarely as good as i'd like it to be however. Right now if i want to have something panned out of both ears, lets say 15L and 15 R, i currently double the track and simply pan one to the left and one to the right. This is kind of a pain in the ass and eats up CPU power in the process. Is there a better way of doing this using just one track that i'm missing?
Berta Baie 11.04.2013	Ok cool, thanks for the tips, I'll put all this to good use.
Trey Brune 11.04.2013	Originally Posted by grazz16 And yet it seems to work in my mixes. It certainly doesnt sound like its coming back out of the centre otherwise i wouldnt be doing it. Sounds like one channel is coming out of 15 Left, and the other out of 15 right, which is the intended effect. Could it be that the effects i have on the channels are naturally fixing that summing issue for me somehow without knowing it? Effects? Of course that's fixing the issue! I was talking about duplicating a single mono channel that isn't being sent to any stereo effects. If you pan the original and the duplicate at the same amount L + R you get Mono. Stereo effects will obviously make it sound stereo, where you might as well just be using your 1 channel, since having the 1 and the duplicate panned like that is equal to panned center anyway! Originally Posted by grazz16 I just tried throwing Ableton's phase utility on the track, panning the track to the left, and then setting the phase utility's pan control to the right and clicking the "phase R" button. Seemed to give it some stereo width, or is that another way of just summing the track again? That is not at all how I meant you to use it. You want one track panned to Left (however much you want) and a duplicate panned the same amount to the right. At this point it will still sound like it's coming from center, since they are equally loud, same phase and in equal distance in stereo. On either of the two tracks you want to shift the phase a bit, just the one! Because you are changing the time at which the wave starts you get small phase differences between the two tracks. When shifting there is a point between them summing to center, and sounding like two separate sources, where our brain believes it sounds like 1 source in stereo. You want to find that point and just adjust until you get the desired width. (You can always manually adjust phase by dragging one of the tracks waves a bit farther in your arrangement window). The progression in phase works like this: In-phase (perfect center, +3db's from volume increase) -> Confusion zone (phase difference big enough not to be center summed, but not big enough to be 2 sources or delay) (This is where a single element sounds like it's coming out of left + right, versus center) -> 2 Sources (phase difference big enough that our ears clearly hear two seperate sources) -> Delay (Huge difference in time). Originally Posted by grazz16 I may not even be stating the desired effect properly. Essentially the problem looks like this: 1. I want to pan certain sounds to fill out the mix. 2. However i also want my mix to be balanced. 3. Thus if i pan one sound to the left it throws off the mix. 4. Therefore I want that same sound coming out of both channels so it's balanced, but while also keeping it's place where i panned it. How is this normally done? With utilities/phasing as mentioned? Or is there another way this re-stating of the problem makes clearer? 1. You're going to have to pan no matter what, nobody will willingly listen to mono. 2. Understand that a mix consists of both spacial arrangement and frequencies working together. 3. Then balance it! 4. Sounds like you're building space after the fact, you need to be making spacial decisions from the start when mixing. You're making this too complicated. Professional engineers might have access to tons of tricks and utilities, but even on a nice big analog table these are your main tools: - EQ - Compression - Panning - Levels Heavy emphasis on panning for you! The EQ is used to balance everything in terms of frequencies. Compression is to balance dynamics. Panning balances space/width, and levels balance volume. It's all about balancing these aspects together! In my last reply I already went over things you can do to make a mono channel sound stereo, but honestly, you shouldn't rely on that! A good mix is often executed by tactfully panning your existing sources and EQ-ing them properly. Once you have a nice balance, then you can start worrying about reverbs, effects, delays, phasing, etc. Those are there to add space if you need it. If you really want I can go over a realistic situation in how to approach doing this, even for electronic music. In any case I hope this clears things up for you.
Berta Baie 11.04.2013	Wait, you're duplicating a single track and panning it equally to left and right to achieve stereo? Not to be a bummer but, equal left + right = mono. And yet it seems to work in my mixes. It certainly doesnt sound like its coming back out of the centre otherwise i wouldnt be doing it. Sounds like one channel is coming out of 15 Left, and the other out of 15 right, which is the intended effect. Could it be that the effects i have on the channels are naturally fixing that summing issue for me somehow without knowing it? I just tried throwing Ableton's phase utility on the track, panning the track to the left, and then setting the phase utility's pan control to the right and clicking the "phase R" button. Seemed to give it some stereo width, or is that another way of just summing the track again? I may not even be stating the desired effect properly. Essentially the problem looks like this: 1. I want to pan certain sounds to fill out the mix. 2. However i also want my mix to be balanced. 3. Thus if i pan one sound to the left it throws off the mix. 4. Therefore I want that same sound coming out of both channels so it's balanced, but while also keeping it's place where i panned it. How is this normally done? With utilities/phasing as mentioned? Or is there another way this re-stating of the problem makes clearer?
Trey Brune 12.04.2013	Wait, you're duplicating a single track and panning it equally to left and right to achieve stereo? Not to be a bummer but, equal left + right = mono. I don't use Ableton that much, but what Kill.I.Am is saying sounds about right for effects + EQ. If you want to create that super wide stereo effect (without resorting to EQ or effects) you need to use phasing. I'd like to believe Ableton has some utility that lets you adjust phase. You only need to adjust one 1 channel. Simply map the phase adjust to a midi button and slowly adjust 'till the phasing makes the two tracks blend super stereo. In response to your frustration with achieving a nice 3D mix. I mix music as an engineer, and really, it's a lot simpler than it looks (but harder to master). I wouldn't EQ left and right channels differently, tends to throw your ears off. If you're going from a mono channel to stereo you want to do what makes sense. Usually I'll have the luxury of a stereo room mic channel, or two different mic channels for the 1 mono source. If that's the case, use those, it's natural and makes sense. If you have nothing to work with and need to create space there are a few easy ways to do that: - Pan the channel to left or right and send it to a delay that is panned to the other side. This in essence does something similar to phasing, except the delay is longer and is usually quieter than the original source. Experiment a bit and you can go from instant stereo to any size space you'd like. - Leave the channel center and send it to a stereo reverb. This is foolproof, but it does make your source wetter as you try to achieve more stereo. - Phasing (like I said above). Stereo is great, it adds a well needed element and level of excitement when listening. Really try to populate your mix as much as possible over the frequency spectrum, dynamically and off course depth/width. A good trick is to switch your mix to mono to hear what you're doing in stereo. Hope this helps!
Starla Lansdon 11.04.2013	If you still want to give the utility thing a go: map the gain knobs of each utility to the same macro and automate that. When I need any volume automation thats the way to go for me, because in case you're automating the tracks volume, you wont be able to do any adjustments there easily, while mixing etc. In case you are already using a utility to do the volume automation, make sure its after the "panning-rack", that way it should work out.
Berta Baie 10.04.2013	Originally Posted by Kill.I.am What do you mean by that? Of course the utility trick makes it louder, because you're basically duplicating the signal, you get the same effect by using the same track twice. Or do I get you wrong here? The idea is not so much to make the signal louder but just to come out of the left and right channels equally. Putting 2 utilities on it allows you to achieve that but makes the track super loud. No big deal, you can just turn it down, and I did. But then the track wouldnt follow the volume automation i had in the same effects rack. It just stayed loud no matter what. What I did instead was used a bit of side EQ to boost the ends of the spectrum which seemed to spread it out in the mix more.
Starla Lansdon 10.04.2013	Originally Posted by grazz16 edit: actually, the utility trick made things very loud and wouldn't follow my volume automation, the mid-side EQ is prob the better option here What do you mean by that? Of course the utility trick makes it louder, because you're basically duplicating the signal, you get the same effect by using the same track twice. Or do I get you wrong here?
Berta Baie 08.04.2013	Originally Posted by Kill.I.am Since my English is not that upper class, hopefully this can help clarify things: Bildschirmfoto 2013-04-08 um 23.11.52.jpg yes it does, thanks man, audio effects racks really are like the solution to all life's problems in Ableton arent they :P edit: actually, the utility trick made things very loud and wouldn't follow my volume automation, the mid-side EQ is prob the better option here
Starla Lansdon 08.04.2013	Since my English is not that upper class, hopefully this can help clarify things: Bildschirmfoto 2013-04-08 um 23.11.52.jpg
Starla Lansdon 08.04.2013	If you're using ableton, simply put a utility on the track you want to pan, then press cmd+g (or ctrl+g) to group it. Double the chain and pan one utility to the right and one to the left. That way you only have to use a single track and can save CPU. For nice stereo effects try the different modes of EQ 8. Normally its set to Stereo, you ca switch it to Mid/Side or L/R, this allows you to EQ the two sides individually while using only one EQ 8 -> less CPU usage again. Edit.: Of course you can also delete the utility after grouping it and just pan the individual chains. Another big benefit from this technique is the possibility of treating each side individually with fx etc. Hope this helps.

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