Does using a controller not make you a dj?

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Does using a controller not make you a dj?
Posted on: 10.11.2012 by Shela Toumey
Hey all,
I've been getting some crap lately from DJ's that use CDJ's and Vinyl. Pretty much the argument is that because I use a Controller (Kontrol S4) that I'm not a dj. I was wondering how people feel about this, and the following is overall how I kind of feel about the fight.

1.) "The controller has a Sync button, so you don't have to beat match" - Just because a controller has a sync button, doesn't mean that I don't know how to beat match. I went and learned the fundamentals on a set of numark HDX's and wasn't running time code for me to see the bpms to match those up. though with the technology most dj's use today they can set the bpm in the Timecode software they are using, or if using cdj's they can look at the readout as well.

2.) "Cue points are cheating because you can just use them to get right into your song without even setting up the track" - Just because I put a cue point on a song to remind me of where I should and shouldn't start and stop a track should make no difference. I listen to all of my tracks before making that deck live so to make sure the track flows well with the mix and all. If that is cheating then People using straight up Vinyl and put the little markers or stickers on their records are cheating too.

3.) "There is no talent in button Clicking" - It really bothers me when that is what djing with a controller is dumbed down to. If I'm just a button clicker, does that make you a needle dropper?

These are just some of the things I have dealt with and overall this is my belief on the whole thing. It doesn't matter what you use or how you use it. What matters is that you are being creative and you are giving the Statium/Club/Bar/House/internet/bedroom your all and they are getting good vibe and dancing their A$$es off. If I use the sync button in a live mix, what that is doing is freeing up my time to be more creative, whether it be setting up some cue points and a drum section of a song so I can start doing some controllerism in a transition, talk into the mic to get the crowd hyped up more, or even find a new sample or track in my collection that might work in set that I'm currently doing (usually go into a show without a set playlist, usually do it all on the fly) it is giving me more time to make sure I'm giving the crowd a good show that they enjoy. Even if I wasn't adding effects and doing some controllerism in my set, and you break it down into me play a track, transition to the next and do that all evening ; how would me doing that on Vinyl or cdj's be any different than a controller? It would be just going through the motions and not being creative. Let me know what you all believe
Nickolas Weschler
11.11.2012		In the end it doesnt matter if you are using a 200$ controller or a 1500$ one... its all about how you use it.
Werner Bile
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
I can tell you though that the majority of DJs that look down upon controllers are not the top tier in the DJ world. Top DJs are actually more open to controllers because they understand that its not about the tools you use to manipulate the music, its how you use those tools to manipulate the music. In the end its always about the music.
+1

That's been my experience as well.
Shayne Kohtz
11.11.2012		I've no personal experience with any controller higher-end than an S4 tbh so I couldn't comment. I'm just looking at the sort of gear Hawtin, Dubfire, Slam etc use when playing out. They don't have CDJs or turntables at all. Surely those hefty Allen & Heath mixers are decent build quality? They look just like any other club mixer to me.

Then again, these guys can probably either get replacement gear for free or easily afford to just buy new ones when they break so...
Nancey Inderlied
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by ad357
You were talking specifically about a Mixtrack though. Which is a cheap bedroom controller.

A fairer comparison would be an Allen & Heath (can't remember the exact one but I'm sure you know what I mean DB-something?) mixer, Maschine, X1s/F1s etc (believe a Richie Hawtin set-up, not a TT or CDJ in sight, still "industry level gear" though). A Mixtrack is a toy, it really would be embarrassing to see someone play out in a club on one of them, I used to have one, I wouldn't even have played a private party with it.
The NI controller's are just as plastic as a Mixtrack... Maybe a little less hollow, but plastic pots are plastic pots. You can't talk about "pro controllers" vs "consumer controllers," because virtually every controller on the market simply isnt built to withstand any kind of abuse. The S4 in particular is prone to having every single section of it be absolutely trashed after a year or so of playing out.

There really aren't many, if any, controllers that are built to a passible professional standard. It's one of the surprising aspects of the DDJ-SX, it actually has well constructed switches and metal pots.
Shayne Kohtz
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by Shishdisma


In the above statement, you acknowledge controllers as not industry level gear, but in the below statement, you insinuate that there isnt a measurable difference between controllers and TTs/CDJs...
You were talking specifically about a Mixtrack though. Which is a cheap bedroom controller.

A fairer comparison would be an Allen & Heath (can't remember the exact one but I'm sure you know what I mean DB-something?) mixer, Maschine, X1s/F1s etc (believe a Richie Hawtin set-up, not a TT or CDJ in sight, still "industry level gear" though). A Mixtrack is a toy, it really would be embarrassing to see someone play out in a club on one of them, I used to have one, I wouldn't even have played a private party with it.
Nancey Inderlied
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by sss18734
*Sigh*

If you look directly above this sentence, you'll see the quote bubble you inserted that clearly says comparing industry level gear to cheap consumer gear is not a fair comparison.
Originally Posted by sss18734
If you need to ignore that [completely correct] logic to make yourself feel better about looking down on talented people that don't use turntables, go right ahead.


In the above statement, you acknowledge controllers as not industry level gear, but in the below statement, you insinuate that there isnt a measurable difference between controllers and TTs/CDJs...
Erica Charvet
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by Shishdisma
I'd like you to try playing out with a Mixtrack for a year, and playing out with 1200's or CDJs for a year. Spoilers: the Mixtrack won't last a year, and will start breaking down mid show.
*Sigh*

If you look directly above this sentence, you'll see the quote bubble you inserted that clearly says comparing industry level gear to cheap consumer gear is not a fair comparison.


Anyways, I know what you all mean. But regardless - our turntables, when used through DVS, are in essence controllers. Just high quality ones. At least when people express distaste for controllers, they should specify by saying they have a distaste for cheap consumer junk utilized by the instant gratification generation.
Tatum Ansaldo
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by haze324
Saying a 1200 is a controller is like saying a CDJ is controller because it controls rekordbox. It's not a controller, it's a CD/media player. Come on guys, because technology now allows us to carry our music in a laptop or USB stick doesn't mean every single piece of gear is a controller.
Technically it doesn't control rekordbox, it caches the track from RB and plays it itself

I see what you mean though. My DB4 is in a way a controller because everything happens in a DSP and every control I touch is basically only telling the DSP what to do. The distinction is hazy.
Brunilda Kora
11.11.2012		I disagree totally with everyone that is saying that TT's with a DVS system are controllers.

I believe we've got a misinterpretation of the word "controller" here.

I don't look down on people using controllers - I use 'em myself w/Ableton.
Julissa Serrone
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by fullenglishpint
Keep it chilled, people. I believe the point is that yes, turntables with DVS are in effect controllers in that they control DJ software, they offer much better control and resolution than your average midi controller jog wheel.
FEP,

I believe the difference is Laptops replaced having to carry crates of vinyl. Turntables were not intended to control laptops, controllers were. Big difference there.

SSS, I've got nothing against controllers --- shit, I've owned a VCI-100, NS7, S4, VCI-300, DDJ-S1, and an NS6. I've used CDJ's in HID, and when I play on tables I use an X1. So don't jump the gun there pal.

Saying a 1200 is a controller is like saying a CDJ is controller because it controls rekordbox. It's not a controller, it's a CD/media player. Come on guys, because technology now allows us to carry our music in a laptop or USB stick doesn't mean every single piece of gear is a controller.
Nancey Inderlied
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by sss18734
If you need to ignore that [completely correct] logic to make yourself feel better about looking down on talented people that don't use turntables, go right ahead.

Also the quality difference of the gear you mentioned makes it a bit of an unfair comparison, don't you believe?
I'd like you to try playing out with a Mixtrack for a year, and playing out with 1200's or CDJs for a year. Spoilers: the Mixtrack won't last a year, and will start breaking down mid show.

Over the course of the past year, if I had bought cheap shit instead of "ignoring that completely correct logic," and bought CDJs and cases, I wouldn't have functioning gear right now.

Cheap, consumer shit is and will always be cheap consumer shit. My CDJ's had 2 S4s sitting on their cases last evening , both less than a year old, and both borderline nonfunctional. The CDJs? Far more abused, and just as solid as the day they came out of the box.

There's a reason controllers are looked down upon, and it's a bit of a mixture of reliability and barrier to entry.
Tatum Ansaldo
11.11.2012		Keep it chilled, people. I believe the point is that yes, turntables with DVS are in effect controllers in that they control DJ software, they offer much better control and resolution than your average midi controller jog wheel.
Erica Charvet
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by haze324
If that's the logic you need to tell yourself that two 1200's is the same as using a Mixtrack Pro go right ahead, but it's not.
If you need to ignore that [completely correct] logic to make yourself feel better about looking down on talented people that don't use turntables, go right ahead.

Also the quality difference of the gear you mentioned makes it a bit of an unfair comparison, don't you believe?
Julissa Serrone
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by sss18734
You're using timecode records to control your computer software internally. DVS makes your turntables nothing more than big, heavy controllers.
If that's the logic you need to tell yourself that two 1200's is the same as using a Mixtrack Pro go right ahead, but it's not.
Erica Charvet
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by Patch
All DVS allows you to do is play media (music files) from your hard drive.
Ehm... No. The software is what plays music from your hard drive. Your DVS turntables control that software, making your turntables the same as any other controller.

They just use timecode protocol instead of MIDI or HID.
Shayne Kohtz
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by Patch
All DVS allows you to do is play media (music files) from your hard drive.
No. They allow you to to use timecode vinyl on a turntable to control Serato (or whatever other software you choose).
Brunilda Kora
11.11.2012		All DVS allows you to do is play media (music files) from your hard drive.
Erica Charvet
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by Patch
Don't forget - when CDJ's are used, they are in a way, EMULATING Turntables. Certainly, CDJ's in HID mode can be considered controllers.

But Turntables? NEVER!!!
You're using timecode records to control your computer software internally. DVS makes your turntables nothing more than big, heavy controllers.
Brunilda Kora
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by sss18734
The thing that nearly all DVS guys forget is that their turntables / CDJ's are in fact, controllers
Don't forget - when CDJ's are used, they are in a way, EMULATING Turntables. Certainly, CDJ's in HID mode can be considered controllers.

But Turntables? NEVER!!!
Shayne Kohtz
12.11.2012
Originally Posted by sss18734
The thing that nearly all DVS guys forget is that their turntables / CDJ's are in fact, controllers.
True. It looks more professional though. I wish it wasn't the case, I use an S4 myself, but even I would believe it looked ridiculous if I went to see some big name DJ & he was playing off an S4.
Erica Charvet
12.11.2012		The thing that nearly all DVS guys forget is that their turntables / CDJ's are in fact, controllers.
Nereida Jasnoch
12.11.2012
Originally Posted by ad357
I kind of agree with this. A modular set up (believe Hawtin, Dubfire, Magda) would be OK. But rocking an S4 in a top club would look ridiculous imo.
There 's a grey area here. Mixing with an S4 is fine, I just don't want to be that guy that shows up at the booth that asks "hey bro, can you move these CDJs ? I got no place to put my controller"
Shayne Kohtz
11.11.2012
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
The prejudice definitely comes from the hours and hours and hours a TT DJ put into learning how to mix and beatmatch compared to hitting a button. Also the investment of buying a controller for $300 vs. buying 2 $300 TTs, a $300 mixer, and all the vinyl to go along with it. .
S4 -
Nereida Jasnoch
11.11.2012		I hate to go against the grain here, but I'd be ashamed of myself to play at a serious party with a controller only setup.
But that's probably just me.
Roseanna Signorini
11.11.2012		The prejudice definitely comes from the hours and hours and hours a TT DJ put into learning how to mix and beatmatch compared to hitting a button. Also the investment of buying a controller for $300 vs. buying 2 $300 TTs, a $300 mixer, and all the vinyl to go along with it. So when someone claimed to be DJ, they had the gear , they had the practice time and skill to be called a DJ and it was evident. Now a guy buys a controller, has an itunes library and is calling himself a DJ. This is why there are so many "old skool" DJs annoyed and also because of the competivness and snobbery that will always exist.

I can tell you though that the majority of DJs that look down upon controllers are not the top tier in the DJ world. Top DJs are actually more open to controllers because they understand that its not about the tools you use to manipulate the music, its how you use those tools to manipulate the music. In the end its always about the music.
Loyce Mekonen
11.11.2012		Douche: "You're not a real dj"

Answer: "you're right, I'm not... I'll continue not dj'ing then". *turns around and keeps on going*

I do wonder who has actually just backed out of the conversation.
Shayne Kohtz
10.11.2012		The type of controller seems to make a difference. Slam belt out techno using X1s F1s & Allen & Heath mixers. They look just as pro as they did when I used to see them playing off vinyl or CDJs. I don't believe they'd look anywhere near as pro, in fact I believe they would look a bit silly, if they were stood there in the main room at Space with an S4 (& this is coming from someone who uses an S4).
Desirae Paiva
10.11.2012
Originally Posted by DJSigma
You're guilty of stereotyping a whole bunch of people with this, just like the people that are having a go at the OP.

I would call myself an "old school individual". I'm in my 40s. I've been DJing on and off since the mid-80s. While I do prefer using turntables, I also use a DVS. I just bought a Z2 mixer. I judge mix DJs by their passion for DJing and mixes (if they're on community s) or by their skill at rocking crowds (if I get to see them DJ live) - nothing more, nothing less.
Sorry, wasn't intending to stereotype. I was merely pointing out a general trends that applies to a lot of aspects of life, not just djing. I don't mean to say that old school people aren't open-minded; it's just that the old school vs. new school clash seems to be a common thing in our world.
Julissa Serrone
10.11.2012
Originally Posted by Sn0wday
I believe the whole controller prejudice is coming to an end.

.
This is not directed at you, just quoting your response.

See, if you post this here or ask other controller DJ's this question, you'll get this type of response. While I do agree some that controllers are being more accepted than before, I offer a view from the "other side" the folks who barely know about controllers.

Check out this link:
http://www.scratchevents.com/

It's a pretty popular company, with some fairly established DJ's on their line up. Check out what EVERY DJ in their pictures is using....and all of these gigs could easily be played with a controller. There is a sense of legitimacy when folks see 1200's vs. a controller, and I'd argue that is why every picture they've used is with 1200's.

There's still quite a bit of ground for controllers to be on even par with CDJ's or 1200's.
Latoria Kavulich
10.11.2012		That argument died 5 years ago. They'll get over it.
Ashanti Andreacchio
10.11.2012		I didn't read all post so don't know if anyone say this. once there were no direct drive turntable so are vinyl DJ now cheeting because their TT's have a more acurate and stedy spinning?
Madelene Witek
10.11.2012		I believe the whole controller prejudice is coming to an end.

But, the situation as a whole had led to; more DJ's and DJ's getting paid less. Oh well, can't be helped.

The only issue that still remains with controllers is how intrusive/huge they are. For instance this local DJ uses an NS7... That thing is massive, and at some of the smaller places we all play at, I hear other DJs that are using either CDj's or other set-ups complain about how when he comes on it's this gigantic coffin with an NS7 in it that requires everything on the DJ table to rearranged, unplugged to be moved, and just a general hassle.

But in the end it's all about the sets you play, your knowledge of djing and music. My first gig was the other day and I opened for an older much more experienced DJ. In my town there is quite a handful of DJs, and I am by far the youngest (aside from your odd bedroom DJ) at their skill level. So for me I felt hopeless as I had little connections and I just turned 18 two weeks ago, so I felt like I had a lot of ground to cover to start getting gigs.

But when I opened for this guy, we discussed the art of opening, he complains (Well, not really complains but brought up) that all the local DJs want to play banger after banger and it has really ruined the journey of a DJ evening . And I totally agree with this, always have. And he liked that, thought I played an awesome set that first evening , and here I am getting booked at 18+ local venues with his help being 6, 7 years younger than a lot of other DJ's I'm competing with.

Just something to believe about, that with the amount of DJ's around, it's more important what sort of set you play based on who you are playing to, who is next in said lineup, and just feeling things out rather than what gear you use.
Alberta Oberti
10.11.2012		I started dj'ing again after a long time. No more than a bedroom dj but perhaps some day...

At first the sync button looked like a great addition to the vinyl and beat matching in the early years. But after learning the possibilites the controller (DDJ-T1) and Traktor, the sync button and quantesizing were more a pain in the buttt than being of any use. So the sync and quant are never touched since...
Hanna Ridenbaugh
10.11.2012		well I played a set last evening and was the only dj not using cdj's and and completly packed the dance floor compared to other dj's playin that in that room. I love playing vynil but can just do so much more with a digital setup.
Lina Rawie
09.11.2012
Originally Posted by Cabullis
Old school individuals will always look down upon whatever new school gear is brought into the field. It's the way it goes. They don't like change, and consider their way (the older way) better.
You're guilty of stereotyping a whole bunch of people with this, just like the people that are having a go at the OP.

I would call myself an "old school individual". I'm in my 40s. I've been DJing on and off since the mid-80s. While I do prefer using turntables, I also use a DVS. I just bought a Z2 mixer. I judge mix DJs by their passion for DJing and mixes (if they're on community s) or by their skill at rocking crowds (if I get to see them DJ live) - nothing more, nothing less.
Desire Piedmont
09.11.2012
Originally Posted by Diskobeep
when the cd-players came into the dj-booths, the vinyl dj's were saying that a cd-dj wasn't a real dj.
And right they were, but controllers are alright.

Desirae Paiva
09.11.2012		Old school individuals will always look down upon whatever new school gear is brought into the field. It's the way it goes. They don't like change, and consider their way (the older way) better. It's human nature to feel that way.

I personally don't care what a DJ uses a long as they know how to rock the dance floor. End of story.
Tatum Ansaldo
09.11.2012		I bought pioneer's top of the line CDJ so people wouldn't look down on me. Then I realised it had a sync button - DAMN YOU PIONEER!!

Seriously though, it comes down to what sigma said. If you can get the crowd going then you're doing it right.
Nancey Inderlied
09.11.2012		Every single controller DJ Ive ever seen catch shit for using a controller has done so because he sucked, and people were just unloading on him. Ive never seen a fairly decent, dignified, and non-obnoxious controller DJ get talked down to.
Federico Vilas
09.11.2012		i've never had issues getting any gigs with controllers, ttables, or laptop alone with a usb keyboard. The most important skill needed to land gigs or get respect is COMMUNICATION/PEOPLE skills. The gear doesn't matter. The mix and crowd matter... and you have to look like your having FUN!

back when I was broke in college I used to rock multiple parties with pcdj RED (1st version), radio shack two channel mixer, and headphones

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