Upgrading from MP3!

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Upgrading from MP3!
Posted on: 27.05.2013 by Wilton Keuning
Hey all! I have decided to stop buying MP3's and go strictly lossless in my music files.

My question for you all is should I go WAV or AIFF? I know WAV is the standard in like 9/10 applications, but DJ'ing on a Mac I've heard that AIFF is better. I buy from mainly BeatPort and Traxsource both of which sell WAV's, but only BeatPort sells AIFF's which makes me lean toward WAV's again.

Also, when you upgrade your BeatPort buys you can only get AIFF's. If I decided to go with WAV's, what is a good free/cheap batch file converter for AIFF-->WAV for Macs? And if I chose to go AIFF will the same application do WAV-->AIFF?

Thanks in advance!!!
Shawn Vanhaitsma
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by chromatome
If you're using LAME 3.99 encoded 320 mp3's and not iTunes encoded, I challenge you to hear the difference at your local club. Most club sound systems get harsh in the high end all by themselves. The biggest differences you'll notice between FLAC and AAC or 320 mp3's or even V0 is going to be the dynamic range - and we're talking about electronic music here where there is very minimal dynamic range anyways. Especially if you're playing club music. Club systems are NOT hi-fi systems. Don't make that mistake. I've done the double blind test in this studio http://www.lelabmastering.com/en/studio listening to both electronic music and other genres as well and could only hear differences in empty space and the decay of some highs, and it was very minimal differences. No differences were heard in the low end though.

FLAC will be louder files though, which is why some people will claim to be able to hear such drastic differences in the high and low ends because they don't match the volumes of their two comparison files.

This thread on HeadFi is interesting. Lots of snake oil over there, but this thread is mostly on topic.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/570621/flac-vs-320-mp3

Ill challenge you all day. If you have an issue FEELING sub frequences, then some music must be very boring to you. But its clearly evident to me at all times the difference of the same song mp3 and lossless wav, lacking a FEELINg.. no.. you cant HEAR it.. but frequencies in that range arent heard they arent felt. And thats what you miss out on.

To each their own, my buddy who uses 128 and 320 mp3s sound extremely flat in certain clubs to his mates coming on after who have tried switching him to lossless.

To each their own I suppose. I dont need a study when it feels different to me.. shrug
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by chromatome
The mind is a powerful thing
Agreed. Regardless. I am not here to argue any of this or that, we can make a separate thread for that if we want.

I have gotten what I wanted from this particular thread. Thank you all again for your input on it.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by makar1
I haven't come across a single properly conducted study that shows an indication that the human ear can discern between a well encoded 320kbps file and the CD source material.

Nor have I come across a large system with audio quality comparable to studio monitors, decent headphones, or a nice home hifi system. Volumes are always way too high to hear the finer points in the sound and there is of course tons of background noise at every venue.
I'm not talking about studies, I'm talking about what I myself have heard.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by chromatome
If you can tell the difference between flac and a 320 file on a large system in a club or bar (excluding venues with top notch systems like Stereo) then I'll give you a cookie.
I'm not sure how many systems you've heard but, in the low end of the frequency band and the high end there are very audible differences in quality.

No need for the cookie.
Traci Knolhoff
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by ProfessorStrangeman
Also, lossless sounds much better on large systems than 320Kbp/s does on large systems.
If you can tell the difference between flac and a 320 file on a large system in a club or bar (excluding venues with top notch systems like Stereo) then I'll give you a cookie.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by makar1
Was the MP3 file tested converted directly from the WAV file being tested?
Can't recall that one.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by makar1
If you convert a WAV file to 320kbps MP3/AAC, noone will be able to tell the difference on the best of audio gear . And "large systems" almost always have worse sound quality than a decent pair of headphones.
I won't be converting to 320 I'll be re-encoding to ALAC.

I don't so much agree with that. I've heard some systems that sound much better having a WAV or other lossless file pumped through than an MP3.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by SlvrDragon50
Uhhh... good luck finding ALAC...

I'm really not sure why you want a lossless format. If you aren't producing, there's reallly no need.
There's no need to FIND .ALAC, if you buy WAV or AIFF you can easily re-encode them to ALAC with no quality loss.

Also, lossless sounds much better on large systems than 320Kbp/s does on large systems.
Traci Knolhoff
28.05.2013
Exactly. 320 and V0 files are quieter because of the conversion... I'm well aware of the differences, I'm just saying that you can't tell the difference unless you're in a hi-fi listening environment, and even then the differences are minimal. Nightclubs do not have systems that can reap any benefit from using FLAC so I see no reason to use it. Any perceived differences in sub-bass frequencies are just that - perceived. Check out the thread I linked to on head-fi. It's got some great information about the actual encoding processes and what the real differences are. It's about 50/50 there for whether you can hear a difference or not, but it's an audiophile community so there's a lot of snake oil and placebo effect taking place. The arguments saying that the differences are undetectable are mostly backed up with concrete evidence though.
Shawn Vanhaitsma
28.05.2013
FLAC Compression doesnt touch the audio in any way shape or form.. which is why they can be converted back and forth. Louder? If you say so, the algorithm doesnt touch the audio data in that way though
Shawn Vanhaitsma
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by chromatome
If you're using LAME 3.99 encoded 320 mp3's and not iTunes encoded, I challenge you to hear the difference at your local club. Most club sound systems get harsh in the high end all by themselves. The biggest differences you'll notice between FLAC and AAC or 320 mp3's or even V0 is going to be the dynamic range - and we're talking about electronic music here where there is very minimal dynamic range anyways. Especially if you're playing club music. Club systems are NOT hi-fi systems. Don't make that mistake. I've done the double blind test in this studio http://www.lelabmastering.com/en/studio listening to both electronic music and other genres as well and could only hear differences in empty space and the decay of some highs, and it was very minimal differences. No differences were heard in the low end though.

FLAC will be louder files though, which is why some people will claim to be able to hear such drastic differences in the high and low ends because they don't match the volumes of their two comparison files.

This thread on HeadFi is interesting. Lots of snake oil over there, but this thread is mostly on topic.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/570621/flac-vs-320-mp3

Ill challenge you all day. If you have an issue FEELING sub frequences, then some music must be very boring to you. But its clearly evident to me at all times the difference of the same song mp3 and lossless wav, lacking a FEELINg.. no.. you cant HEAR it.. but frequencies in that range arent heard they arent felt. And thats what you miss out on.

To each their own, my buddy who uses 128 and 320 mp3s sound extremely flat in certain clubs to his mates coming on after who have tried switching him to lossless.

To each their own I suppose. I dont need a study when it feels different to me.. shrug
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by chromatome
The mind is a powerful thing
Agreed. Regardless. I am not here to argue any of this or that, we can make a separate thread for that if we want.

I have gotten what I wanted from this particular thread. Thank you all again for your input on it.
Traci Knolhoff
28.05.2013
The mind is a powerful thing
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by makar1
I haven't come across a single properly conducted study that shows an indication that the human ear can discern between a well encoded 320kbps file and the CD source material.

Nor have I come across a large system with audio quality comparable to studio monitors, decent headphones, or a nice home hifi system. Volumes are always way too high to hear the finer points in the sound and there is of course tons of background noise at every venue.
I'm not talking about studies, I'm talking about what I myself have heard.
Traci Knolhoff
28.05.2013
If you're using LAME 3.99 encoded 320 mp3's and not iTunes encoded, I challenge you to hear the difference at your local club. Most club sound systems get harsh in the high end all by themselves. The biggest differences you'll notice between FLAC and AAC or 320 mp3's or even V0 is going to be the dynamic range - and we're talking about electronic music here where there is very minimal dynamic range anyways. Especially if you're playing club music. Club systems are NOT hi-fi systems. Don't make that mistake. I've done the double blind test in this studio http://www.lelabmastering.com/en/studio listening to both electronic music and other genres as well and could only hear differences in empty space and the decay of some highs, and it was very minimal differences. No differences were heard in the low end though.

FLAC will be louder files though, which is why some people will claim to be able to hear such drastic differences in the high and low ends because they don't match the volumes of their two comparison files.

This thread on HeadFi is interesting. Lots of snake oil over there, but this thread is mostly on topic.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/570621/flac-vs-320-mp3
Alphonso Deitchman
28.05.2013
I haven't come across a single properly conducted study that shows an indication that the human ear can discern between a well encoded 320kbps file and the CD source material.

Nor have I come across a large system with audio quality comparable to studio monitors, decent headphones, or a nice home hifi system. Volumes are always way too high to hear the finer points in the sound and there is of course tons of background noise at every venue.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by chromatome
If you can tell the difference between flac and a 320 file on a large system in a club or bar (excluding venues with top notch systems like Stereo) then I'll give you a cookie.
I'm not sure how many systems you've heard but, in the low end of the frequency band and the high end there are very audible differences in quality.

No need for the cookie.
Traci Knolhoff
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by ProfessorStrangeman
Also, lossless sounds much better on large systems than 320Kbp/s does on large systems.
If you can tell the difference between flac and a 320 file on a large system in a club or bar (excluding venues with top notch systems like Stereo) then I'll give you a cookie.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by makar1
Was the MP3 file tested converted directly from the WAV file being tested?
Can't recall that one.
Alphonso Deitchman
28.05.2013
Was the MP3 file tested converted directly from the WAV file being tested?
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by makar1
If you convert a WAV file to 320kbps MP3/AAC, noone will be able to tell the difference on the best of audio gear . And "large systems" almost always have worse sound quality than a decent pair of headphones.
I won't be converting to 320 I'll be re-encoding to ALAC.

I don't so much agree with that. I've heard some systems that sound much better having a WAV or other lossless file pumped through than an MP3.
Alphonso Deitchman
28.05.2013
If you convert a WAV file to 320kbps MP3/AAC, noone will be able to tell the difference on the best of audio gear . And "large systems" almost always have worse sound quality than a decent pair of headphones.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by SlvrDragon50
Uhhh... good luck finding ALAC...

I'm really not sure why you want a lossless format. If you aren't producing, there's reallly no need.
There's no need to FIND .ALAC, if you buy WAV or AIFF you can easily re-encode them to ALAC with no quality loss.

Also, lossless sounds much better on large systems than 320Kbp/s does on large systems.
Gaynell Rydberg
28.05.2013
Uhhh... good luck finding ALAC...

I'm really not sure why you want a lossless format. If you aren't producing, there's reallly no need.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by makar1
Itunes does not, and likely never will support FLAC. Apple has their own lossless format called ALAC which is basically equivalent to FLAC and should work fine in Traktor too.

Itunes can of course easily convert from AIFF/WAV to ALAC.
Okay so!

THREAD ROUND-UP!!!

WAV
Lossless, widely used, easily available, playable on damn near everything, works in iTunes.

No tagging, uncompressed.

AIFF
Lossless, widely used, easily available, playable on damn near everything, support for tagging, works in iTunes.

Uncompressed.

FLAC
Lossless, compressed, supports tagging.

No iTunes support.

ALAC
Lossless, compressed, supports tagging, iTunes support.

Our winner is no doubt ALAC in this case!!!!

Thank you everyone for your input and you all get the pleasure of calling this thread a success!

Cheers,
The Prof
Alphonso Deitchman
28.05.2013
Itunes does not, and likely never will support FLAC. Apple has their own lossless format called ALAC which is basically equivalent to FLAC and should work fine in Traktor too.

Itunes can of course easily convert from AIFF/WAV to ALAC.
Nedra Fresneda
28.05.2013
Yes but not everything has FLAC compatibility so keep that in mind before batch processing your whole collection to FLAC. iTunes doesn't support this format natively, you need a specific plugin I haven't used in quite a while so I can't say if it's compatible with the latest versions.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Okay so basically what I am getting from this is that FLAC is a super badass format, more so than AIFF and AIFF more so than WAV?

Two things then:
  • What are some good AIFF/WAV-->FLAC converters for Mac?
  • Can I use FLAC in my iTunes library?
Alphonso Deitchman
28.05.2013
If you're creating permanent samples e.g. for the Remix Decks it might make sense to use lossless. But as Traktor does not reencode the files you use for general mixing, it doesn't come under the same use-case as actual editing.
Rochel Gleese
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by makar1
Unless you're sampling, editing, or re-encoding your music there's no benefit with going lossless.

Go with compressed like FLAC if you have to though. Uncompressed is a huge waste of space.
Which is what you do in programs like Traktor and Ableton, i'm a big supporter of Lossless.

AIFF for me, although i do buy in FLAC, problem is iTunes can't handle it, thus Traktor DJ can't handle it, so I have re-encoded all my tracks into AIFF.
Cherise Sleezer
28.05.2013
yup no major advantage, just major disadvantage due to file size...
Alphonso Deitchman
28.05.2013
Unless you're sampling, editing, or re-encoding your music there's no benefit with going lossless.

Go with compressed like FLAC if you have to though. Uncompressed is a huge waste of space.
Shawn Vanhaitsma
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by ProfessorStrangeman
wat.
You can use a compression setting of 10 and lose not bitrate quality from lossless wav. Regardless, its compressed, its not downsampled in any way. Supporting FLAC means the application supports the decompression essentially.

FLAC can be converted back and forth from wav to flac without loss of quality etc.
Wilton Keuning
28.05.2013
Originally Posted by padi_04
compressed lossless
wat.
Nedra Fresneda
28.05.2013
yup, FLAC is compressed lossless tho.
Wilton Keuning
27.05.2013
Originally Posted by balakoth
IF i even buy from beatport anymore (Record Pools are the only way to go I believe) I get Lossless wavs, and then convert to FLAC for tagging compatibility.
So AIFF's would be similar then as they have tagging?
Shawn Vanhaitsma
27.05.2013
Originally Posted by ProfessorStrangeman
Hey all! I have decided to stop buying MP3's and go strictly lossless in my music files.

My question for you all is should I go WAV or AIFF? I know WAV is the standard in like 9/10 applications, but DJ'ing on a Mac I've heard that AIFF is better. I buy from mainly BeatPort and Traxsource both of which sell WAV's, but only BeatPort sells AIFF's which makes me lean toward WAV's again.

Also, when you upgrade your BeatPort buys you can only get AIFF's. If I decided to go with WAV's, what is a good free/cheap batch file converter for AIFF-->WAV for Macs? And if I chose to go AIFF will the same application do WAV-->AIFF?

Thanks in advance!!!
IF i even buy from beatport anymore (Record Pools are the only way to go I believe) I get Lossless wavs, and then convert to FLAC for tagging compatibility.
Nedra Fresneda
27.05.2013
Well, lucky you then . I know there is no standardisation over WAV tagging so they tend to be problematic in this aspect, other than that you should be good with any of them.
Wilton Keuning
27.05.2013
Originally Posted by padi_04
Do those tags carry over correctly to other programs? (Traktor, Serato, iTunes, etc)
Indeed they do!
Nedra Fresneda
27.05.2013
Do those tags carry over correctly to other programs? (Traktor, Serato, iTunes, etc)

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