Calvin Harris
and Dillon Francis
worked there... no way!
| hi res So I'm looking for some info on how traktor interprets "high resolution" controller messages.
First, what protocol do controllers use? ISsit all/mostly HiD, or is there more diversity than that?
Is Traktor at all capable of using these messages, or does it just convert them to midi values?
What if you put a S4 in midi mode? Does it still read the hi-resolution inputs, or does it only send midi?
What about the upcoming behringer CMD PL-1? It will include a high-resolution pitch fader and jogwheel. Will traktor be able to take advantage of these? | Jonathan Lokey
17.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
No, you're not going to get .01% pitch resolution on the PL-1. You don't get it on a CDJ2000 either. .05% was the target pitch fader performance at +/-8%, which is what you get on most of the Pioneer CDJs.
Thanks for the information on this, it is a topic i have wanted to discuss for a while. It is also good to hear that a 14 bit fader on the PL-1 will be good in traktor for manual beatmatching. | Diogo Dj Dragão
15.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by firebr4nd
All these numbers are nice and all, but is it a controller that you can beatmatch manually on without any hiccups?
That's going to depend entirely on you. If you can beatmix on other hardware, you'll be able to beatmix on the PL-1. | Ulysses Vittetoe
16.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
No, you're not going to get .01% pitch resolution on the PL-1. You don't get it on a CDJ2000 either. .05% was the target pitch fader performance at +/-8%, which is what you get on most of the Pioneer CDJs.
All these numbers are nice and all, but is it a controller that you can beatmatch manually on without any hiccups? | Leota Dolney
16.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
No, you're not going to get .01% pitch resolution on the PL-1. You don't get it on a CDJ2000 either. .05% was the target pitch fader performance at +/-8%, which is what you get on most of the Pioneer CDJs.
nem0nic...very nicely put and summarized above. The difference between absolute and relative messages seems to be the source of a lot of confusion regarding 7-bit messages. At any rate, I am very much looking forward to a PL-1...or maybe 2 PL-1s | Pansy Shiveley
14.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by faderswagger
Umm, interestingly enough, Nem0nic designed the CMD series... But while I'm inclined to believe that he knows what he's talking about, you do seem correct, StephenV. Nem0nic... Can you clarify? Are you implying that the Pl-1's platter and pitch fader are 7 bit? They've been advertised as "high definition". Is there some other system in place here?
Oh well, this is weird indeed.. :-)
Originally Posted by faderswagger
Yeah I know traktor will SUPPORT them, but will they be HD, or standard 128-state midi?
The faders are explicitly mentioned as 14bit, so that's a no brainer. As for the platters, I guess we'll have to wait and see - unless nem0nic can shed some light on this. Either way, platters don't quite need 14bit as much as pitch faders do, so I wouldn't really worry about it actually. Especially because Behringer is taking its time and resources to make a quality product line. | Natalia Bucko
14.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by StephanV
I'm sorry but it seems to me like you don't really know what you're talking about.
Let's make a quick calculation here. Say your pitch fader has a resolution of 7 bit. This means that it has a number of 2^7=128 different possible states. Because faders and encoders use absolute positions, this means a total of 128 different tempo states. I like to have a pitch range of +/- 20%, but let's assume a range of +/- 10% - for the sake of feasibility.
Say our tune is of 128 BPM. 10% up gives an increment of 12,8BPM, 10% down a decrease of 12,8BPM, resulting in a total range of 25,6BPM. With a 7 bit fader, this means that the minimum increment/decrease you can achieve is 25,6/128 = 0,2BPM.
I don't know about you, but I don't call that an accurate means of tempo adjustment, and this is even assuming a rather smallish tempo range. And for the record, the length of your pitch fader does not change these calculations - nor application in real life - by one bit.
14 bit really has its use for certain components such as pitch faders, there's absolutely no doubt about that.
And 7 bit is by absolutely no means "high resolution" messaging. It's an as oldskool resolution as MIDI gets. Literally. The original MIDI protocol (from back in the early 80's) already used 7 bits command messages.
Umm, interestingly enough, Nem0nic designed the CMD series... But while I'm inclined to believe that he knows what he's talking about, you do seem correct, StephenV. Nem0nic... Can you clarify? Are you implying that the Pl-1's platter and pitch fader are 7 bit? They've been advertised as "high definition". Is there some other system in place here?
Originally Posted by StephanV
Absolutely, the entire CMD-series are pure MIDI controllers. You'll be fine with any MIDI-mappable software really, not just Traktor.
Yeah I know traktor will SUPPORT them, but will they be HD, or standard 128-state midi? | Pansy Shiveley
14.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by faderswagger
so will traktor support the PL-1's HD platter and fader?
Originally Posted by firebr4nd
I would also like to know this.
Absolutely, the entire CMD-series are pure MIDI controllers. You'll be fine with any MIDI-mappable software really, not just Traktor. | Ulysses Vittetoe
14.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by faderswagger
so will traktor support the PL-1's HD platter and fader?
I would also like to know this. | Jonathan Lokey
20.06.2012 | I have been looking into the issuen of pitch resolution on the vci400 over the last couple of days and have found something very interesting toevening
.
With the stock traktor mapping that the standard (non EGE) vci 400 comes with, the pitch fader is set to cc 18 on midi channels 3 - 6. If you also look in the user manual, the cc values it gives for the pitch faders is also cc 18 however if you try and midi learn the pitch fader in traktor you get a value of cc 50 + cc 01 on midi channels 3 - 6.
I did some testing with the pitch faders on both settings at a pitch range of 6% and found out that for the cc 18 setting you only got a pitch resolution of about 0.1% which i guess is a 7 bit midi message. For the cc 50 + cc 01 setting i found out that the pitch resolution is 0.03%. I am guessing that this is the 14bit midi that the controller is sending out over 2 midi cc values.
Seeing as the pitch resolution of a cdj 2000 is 0.02% i believe this should be acceptable for manual beat matching (i am about to have a lenghty mix so we will find out!). I also tested a pitch range of 8% and this yielded a resolution of 0.04%.
What this basically means is that if you are using the stock mapping and find that the pitch resolution is not fine enough for you go into the controller editor and find the tempo fader entry. Select the midi learn button and move the relevant tempo fader till you see the cc 50 + cc 01 setting. Then you should be good to go.
Nemonic i would love to hear your views on this and whether or not you have found something similar mapping the pitch fader of the PL-1 | Jonathan Lokey
17.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
No, you're not going to get .01% pitch resolution on the PL-1. You don't get it on a CDJ2000 either. .05% was the target pitch fader performance at +/-8%, which is what you get on most of the Pioneer CDJs.
Thanks for the information on this, it is a topic i have wanted to discuss for a while. It is also good to hear that a 14 bit fader on the PL-1 will be good in traktor for manual beatmatching. | Pansy Shiveley
15.06.2012 | @nem0nic: taking 10 bits into account would indeed make 14 bits overkill, but as this indeed is not a standard (and was never mentioned in this thread, not even in your post) I was assuming 7 bit as the other option. Not too weird a conclusion, is it?
I also never said anything about the platter, your first post was spot on about that.
But anyway, little misunderstanding on both sides, OP's got his answer so I guess all is good here. | Diogo Dj Dragão
15.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by firebr4nd
All these numbers are nice and all, but is it a controller that you can beatmatch manually on without any hiccups?
That's going to depend entirely on you. If you can beatmix on other hardware, you'll be able to beatmix on the PL-1. | Ulysses Vittetoe
16.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
No, you're not going to get .01% pitch resolution on the PL-1. You don't get it on a CDJ2000 either. .05% was the target pitch fader performance at +/-8%, which is what you get on most of the Pioneer CDJs.
All these numbers are nice and all, but is it a controller that you can beatmatch manually on without any hiccups? | Rochel Gleese
16.06.2012 | StephanV apology accepted LOL | Leota Dolney
16.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
No, you're not going to get .01% pitch resolution on the PL-1. You don't get it on a CDJ2000 either. .05% was the target pitch fader performance at +/-8%, which is what you get on most of the Pioneer CDJs.
nem0nic...very nicely put and summarized above. The difference between absolute and relative messages seems to be the source of a lot of confusion regarding 7-bit messages. At any rate, I am very much looking forward to a PL-1...or maybe 2 PL-1s | Diogo Dj Dragão
15.06.2012 |
So can you make changes of 0.01 bpm with the fader on the PL-1? Not being able to do this has been a bit of a letdown with my vci400.
No, you're not going to get .01% pitch resolution on the PL-1. You don't get it on a CDJ2000 either. .05% was the target pitch fader performance at +/-8%, which is what you get on most of the Pioneer CDJs. | Jonathan Lokey
15.06.2012 | So can you make changes of 0.01 bpm with the fader on the PL-1? Not being able to do this has been a bit of a letdown with my vci400. | Diogo Dj Dragão
15.06.2012 |
I'm sorry but it seems to me like you don't really know what you're talking about.
Nope, I believe you're getting things twisted, primarily because you didn't read what I wrote. Let's look at things again...
A 14bit message is TOTAL OVERKILL for a pitch fader, even if it's 100mm long
A 14bit absolute CC message has 16,384 messages across the length of it's travel. If that travel is 100mm, then there are almost 164 messages PER MILLIMETER OF TRAVEL. This is WAY MORE resolution than is practical for that application. A 10bit message would be more appropriate, but then you run into issues with how applications interpret that, since it's not a "standard" message.
DJ controller platters normally use a 7bit relative CC message, and manage what we would consider "high resolution" messaging.
We're talking about platters now. Unlike an absolute CC message, a 7bit RELATIVE CC message isn't strictly limited to 128 values, because the way it works and how the message is interpreted is different. Yes, the last byte of a 7bit relative CC can only express 128 values, but DJ software doesn't just look at the last byte of the message. It looks at HOW MANY TICKS have elapsed in a given time interval. If you have an encoder that has 4000 counts of resolution around a single rotation, a relative CC message is sent for every "tick". So what is the last byte representing if the software is primarily looking at the message throughput to track platter movement? Generally, the answer is platter direction and (to a lesser extent) relative velocity from tick to tick. The rules for how this works depends on what KIND of message we're talking about (whether it's a binary offset, or a two's comp, or whatever).
So THAT is why a 7bit relative CC is TOTALLY appropriate for platter use.
And 7 bit is by absolutely no means "high resolution" messaging. It's an as oldskool resolution as MIDI gets. Literally. The original MIDI protocol (from back in the early 80's) already used 7 bits command messages.
Be careful here, because it's obvious you don't have all the information. A 7bit ABSOLUTE message isn't high resolution. But a 7bit RELATIVE message can easily be.
so will traktor support the PL-1's HD platter and fader?
It already does.
Nem0nic... Can you clarify?
See above.
Yeah I know traktor will SUPPORT them, but will they be HD, or standard 128-state midi?
Again, that is only 1 kind of "standard" MIDI message. This is what screwed Stephen up.
This would mean that if they are 14bit then none of the other 14bit faders will play nice with traktor either.
14bit pitch faders work just fine in Traktor in my experience. The fader on the PL-1 specifically works great. | Jonathan Lokey
15.06.2012 | Does anyone know the resolution of the VCI400 faders as they do not work too well with traktor. This would mean that if they are 14bit then none of the other 14bit faders will play nice with traktor either. | Pansy Shiveley
14.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by faderswagger
Umm, interestingly enough, Nem0nic designed the CMD series... But while I'm inclined to believe that he knows what he's talking about, you do seem correct, StephenV. Nem0nic... Can you clarify? Are you implying that the Pl-1's platter and pitch fader are 7 bit? They've been advertised as "high definition". Is there some other system in place here?
Oh well, this is weird indeed.. :-)
Originally Posted by faderswagger
Yeah I know traktor will SUPPORT them, but will they be HD, or standard 128-state midi?
The faders are explicitly mentioned as 14bit, so that's a no brainer. As for the platters, I guess we'll have to wait and see - unless nem0nic can shed some light on this. Either way, platters don't quite need 14bit as much as pitch faders do, so I wouldn't really worry about it actually. Especially because Behringer is taking its time and resources to make a quality product line. | Natalia Bucko
14.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by StephanV
I'm sorry but it seems to me like you don't really know what you're talking about.
Let's make a quick calculation here. Say your pitch fader has a resolution of 7 bit. This means that it has a number of 2^7=128 different possible states. Because faders and encoders use absolute positions, this means a total of 128 different tempo states. I like to have a pitch range of +/- 20%, but let's assume a range of +/- 10% - for the sake of feasibility.
Say our tune is of 128 BPM. 10% up gives an increment of 12,8BPM, 10% down a decrease of 12,8BPM, resulting in a total range of 25,6BPM. With a 7 bit fader, this means that the minimum increment/decrease you can achieve is 25,6/128 = 0,2BPM.
I don't know about you, but I don't call that an accurate means of tempo adjustment, and this is even assuming a rather smallish tempo range. And for the record, the length of your pitch fader does not change these calculations - nor application in real life - by one bit.
14 bit really has its use for certain components such as pitch faders, there's absolutely no doubt about that.
And 7 bit is by absolutely no means "high resolution" messaging. It's an as oldskool resolution as MIDI gets. Literally. The original MIDI protocol (from back in the early 80's) already used 7 bits command messages.
Umm, interestingly enough, Nem0nic designed the CMD series... But while I'm inclined to believe that he knows what he's talking about, you do seem correct, StephenV. Nem0nic... Can you clarify? Are you implying that the Pl-1's platter and pitch fader are 7 bit? They've been advertised as "high definition". Is there some other system in place here?
Originally Posted by StephanV
Absolutely, the entire CMD-series are pure MIDI controllers. You'll be fine with any MIDI-mappable software really, not just Traktor.
Yeah I know traktor will SUPPORT them, but will they be HD, or standard 128-state midi? | Pansy Shiveley
14.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by faderswagger
so will traktor support the PL-1's HD platter and fader?
Originally Posted by firebr4nd
I would also like to know this.
Absolutely, the entire CMD-series are pure MIDI controllers. You'll be fine with any MIDI-mappable software really, not just Traktor. | Ulysses Vittetoe
14.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by faderswagger
so will traktor support the PL-1's HD platter and fader?
I would also like to know this. | Pansy Shiveley
14.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
For a platter, this isn't necessarily true. Actually, it isn't even true for all fader messages. A 14bit message is TOTAL OVERKILL for a pitch fader, even if it's 100mm long.
DJ controller platters normally use a 7bit relative CC message, and manage what we would consider "high resolution" messaging.
I'm sorry but it seems to me like you don't really know what you're talking about.
Let's make a quick calculation here. Say your pitch fader has a resolution of 7 bit. This means that it has a number of 2^7=128 different possible states. Because faders and encoders use absolute positions, this means a total of 128 different tempo states. I like to have a pitch range of +/- 20%, but let's assume a range of +/- 10% - for the sake of feasibility.
Say our tune is of 128 BPM. 10% up gives an increment of 12,8BPM, 10% down a decrease of 12,8BPM, resulting in a total range of 25,6BPM. With a 7 bit fader, this means that the minimum increment/decrease you can achieve is 25,6/128 = 0,2BPM.
I don't know about you, but I don't call that an accurate means of tempo adjustment, and this is even assuming a rather smallish tempo range. And for the record, the length of your pitch fader does not change these calculations - nor application in real life - by one bit.
14 bit really has its use for certain components such as pitch faders, there's absolutely no doubt about that.
And 7 bit is by absolutely no means "high resolution" messaging. It's an as oldskool resolution as MIDI gets. Literally. The original MIDI protocol (from back in the early 80's) already used 7 bits command messages. | Nedra Fresneda
13.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
Which can still be high resolution by ANYONE's standards.
I'm not saying regular MIDI is bad for common usage, just not the best for pitch faders and jogs. If you sync it won't make a difference if it's MIDI, 14bit MIDI, HID, OCS or whatever name they put on the next fancy protocol. | Natalia Bucko
13.06.2012 | so will traktor support the PL-1's HD platter and fader? | Diogo Dj Dragão
13.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by StephanV
Traktor supports 14bit MIDI command messages, which are of close enough resolution to HID for pretty much all DJ'ing purposes.
For a platter, this isn't necessarily true. Actually, it isn't even true for all fader messages. A 14bit message is TOTAL OVERKILL for a pitch fader, even if it's 100mm long.
DJ controller platters normally use a 7bit relative CC message, and manage what we would consider "high resolution" messaging. | Pansy Shiveley
13.06.2012 | Traktor supports 14bit MIDI command messages, which are of close enough resolution to HID for pretty much all DJ'ing purposes. | Cristian Carmona
13.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
Which can still be high resolution by ANYONE's standards.
+1 | Sylvia Greener
13.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
Which can still be high resolution by ANYONE's standards.
Jep! One should keep in mind that lots of controllers are ONLY capable of sending Midi. | Diogo Dj Dragão
13.06.2012 |
They use HID (they call it NHL), when NI controllers are used in MIDI mode they send regular resolution messages.
Which can still be high resolution by ANYONE's standards. | Nedra Fresneda
13.06.2012 | They use HID (they call it NHL), when NI controllers are used in MIDI mode they send regular resolution messages. |
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