Dear Native Instruments (Open Letter)
Dear Native Instruments (Open Letter) Posted on: 20.10.2013 by Arlette Herubin Would you please hire some user interface designers from Ableton to improve Traktors controller management. Also replace the managers who hired the designers of the original with people who care about the users just a little bit. It just needs to be started over because this thing you have going on is an atrocity against users. It does not even attempt to follow user-friendly interface design principles. Newsflash: mapping a real knob to one on the screen does not have to involve scrolling through ridiculous massive trees of confusing submenus. Ableton did it and there is no reason why you can't. | |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 22.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by tekki
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| Random X 22.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
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| Rolanda Clodfelder 22.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
Yes, very well thank you. Sorry for the delay.
This is what I got from the akai development team. The MPD24 has endless rotary POTS just like the other MPD/MPKs. An encoder usually has 24 or 32 points in a circle, and it senses its position by an indicator passing over one of these points A circle gives you 32 points of reference on a pot. This means, if you want to go 0-127 (standard midi controller), you have 2 choices: 1. interpolate 32 points as 0-127 (effectively sending 0,3,7, 11 etc) because you only have 32 points, or 2. count 32 points as 0-31. This means you need to turn the knob 4 times to get 0-127. Most encoders will use a hybrid of these, and count accelleration to act somewhat like a real pot, but its never effective. A POT has no steps. It uses a wiper and electrical resistance to sense the position of the pot. Pots can be then interpolated however you want. This means you can have (if you want) 128 steps, which is what we do. What our pot has is 2 wipers, and we use the relative position between the two to give us the benefit of an encoder moving in a 360 degree motion, but allow us as many points as we want. The real benefit for 360 pots on a controller is banking The term "endless rotary encoder" does not directly associate with NRPN functionality although most devices do. Keep in mind that all details are subject to change regarding trade shows/NAMM. Yes, the Project Manager did refer to them as "endless rotary encoders" but that could have been changed afterwards to improve knob functionality, like described above. |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 21.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by deevey
In the APC firmware, that encoder output is changed from relative to absolute. When the encoder reaches the end values in either direction, it stops sending output. We have an absolute mode built into the CMD controllers as well, and accomplish it in exactly the same way. The host application can update the value of the encoder by sending it a new value (same CC as the output message). This updates the LED feedback AND the encoder output. So, if encoder 1 is currently at 64 and the software sends that CC a value of 128, then the encoder and it's LED ring will snap to the full clockwise position, and any new movement will be relative to that new value. What's more, the bottom group of encoders (the Device Control section) is modified by the TRACK SELECTION buttons. Each TRACK SELECTION button stores the values of all 8 of the Device Control encoders in the device firmware. It's not the Live software doing the variable tracking and conditional operations and pushing those state changes to the controller. The controller is doing it in the firmware. |
| Rolanda Clodfelder 21.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
I bloody wish they were proper encoders! In fairness at least NI gave us midi learn for led outputs a few versions back |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 21.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by Deejaesnafu
NI have a Features Suggestion sub community . It's a good topic for debate but an "open letter"? Really? |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 21.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by hotshot
I'm not arguing that the Controller Manager is beyond criticism. There are lots of issues I would love to see addressed, and I totally agree that it could be MUCH easier for a new user to create a mapping. I've been saying that there needs to be an abstraction layer above the existing controller manager - believe of this as a virtual controller - that could be mapped to easily via traditional MIDI learn. The Controller Manager would be used to create the "virtual controller". Ideally, the virtual controllers would be the NI controller offerings. The interface would be an image of an NI controller, and the user would click a control on the virtual NI controller, then move a control on their own controller - mapping done. For those who want to get their hands dirty, the existing interface would be available as well. But using Live as your benchmark is a problem, because it's terrible. LED feedback is a big part of the Live controller workflow. Not being able to define output messaging without writing a script is pretty awful. |
| Random X 22.10.2013 | Cool huh! |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 22.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by tekki
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| Random X 22.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
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| Adelia Schirm 22.10.2013 | I believe most people will admit that when they first want to start mapping their own controllers in Traktor they get a little intimidated or annoyed at it's seemingly not so user-friendly layout. But once you get into and just browse through the menus for a bit you realise it's awesome potential. When you first opened Ableton the same could be said for that with it's completely individual take on the DAW, but perseverance and a desire to make boss music made you stick with it. As far as I'm concerned I would rather use Traktors controller manager over Ableton's because it forces the user to believe about the mappings in a much more logical way. |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 22.10.2013 | They look like encoders to me, and none of what is said in that explanation you posted makes much sense. All of the knobs and faders I've tested on both units send standard 7bit absolute messages. The CC numbering starts at 1 for fader one, and goes from left to right and from bottom to top (ending in B0 37 ** at Track Control encoder #8). It's clear looking at the controllers that the numbering was done in an arbitrary way, and not to specifically choose NRPNs (of which they would only use one bit of the output). Also, that explanation of an incremental encoder is only one of many. If I were looking for a higher resolution encoder and didn't want to rely on the firmware to interpolate (which can actually work amazingly well), I might specify something like a gray code encoder. There are other cool encoders out there (I'm currently looking at a hall effect (magnetic) encoder that has some interesting physical properties). My point is that there isn't any secret sauce in the APC40 components - only it's firmware. |
| Rolanda Clodfelder 22.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
Yes, very well thank you. Sorry for the delay.
This is what I got from the akai development team. The MPD24 has endless rotary POTS just like the other MPD/MPKs. An encoder usually has 24 or 32 points in a circle, and it senses its position by an indicator passing over one of these points A circle gives you 32 points of reference on a pot. This means, if you want to go 0-127 (standard midi controller), you have 2 choices: 1. interpolate 32 points as 0-127 (effectively sending 0,3,7, 11 etc) because you only have 32 points, or 2. count 32 points as 0-31. This means you need to turn the knob 4 times to get 0-127. Most encoders will use a hybrid of these, and count accelleration to act somewhat like a real pot, but its never effective. A POT has no steps. It uses a wiper and electrical resistance to sense the position of the pot. Pots can be then interpolated however you want. This means you can have (if you want) 128 steps, which is what we do. What our pot has is 2 wipers, and we use the relative position between the two to give us the benefit of an encoder moving in a 360 degree motion, but allow us as many points as we want. The real benefit for 360 pots on a controller is banking The term "endless rotary encoder" does not directly associate with NRPN functionality although most devices do. Keep in mind that all details are subject to change regarding trade shows/NAMM. Yes, the Project Manager did refer to them as "endless rotary encoders" but that could have been changed afterwards to improve knob functionality, like described above. |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 21.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by deevey
In the APC firmware, that encoder output is changed from relative to absolute. When the encoder reaches the end values in either direction, it stops sending output. We have an absolute mode built into the CMD controllers as well, and accomplish it in exactly the same way. The host application can update the value of the encoder by sending it a new value (same CC as the output message). This updates the LED feedback AND the encoder output. So, if encoder 1 is currently at 64 and the software sends that CC a value of 128, then the encoder and it's LED ring will snap to the full clockwise position, and any new movement will be relative to that new value. What's more, the bottom group of encoders (the Device Control section) is modified by the TRACK SELECTION buttons. Each TRACK SELECTION button stores the values of all 8 of the Device Control encoders in the device firmware. It's not the Live software doing the variable tracking and conditional operations and pushing those state changes to the controller. The controller is doing it in the firmware. |
| Rolanda Clodfelder 21.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
I bloody wish they were proper encoders! In fairness at least NI gave us midi learn for led outputs a few versions back |
| nayit ruiz jaramillo 21.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by Deejaesnafu
NI have a Features Suggestion sub community . It's a good topic for debate but an "open letter"? Really? |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 21.10.2013 |
Originally Posted by hotshot
I'm not arguing that the Controller Manager is beyond criticism. There are lots of issues I would love to see addressed, and I totally agree that it could be MUCH easier for a new user to create a mapping. I've been saying that there needs to be an abstraction layer above the existing controller manager - believe of this as a virtual controller - that could be mapped to easily via traditional MIDI learn. The Controller Manager would be used to create the "virtual controller". Ideally, the virtual controllers would be the NI controller offerings. The interface would be an image of an NI controller, and the user would click a control on the virtual NI controller, then move a control on their own controller - mapping done. For those who want to get their hands dirty, the existing interface would be available as well. But using Live as your benchmark is a problem, because it's terrible. LED feedback is a big part of the Live controller workflow. Not being able to define output messaging without writing a script is pretty awful. |
| Random X 21.10.2013 | Hoping Hotshot has also dropped an email to Native Instruments, in stead of just hoping for them to miraculously picking this message up telepathically through the intarwebzzzz. |
| Hipolito Scionti 21.10.2013 | ive never used it but there is this http://xtrememapping.com/ |
| Kellie Myrum 21.10.2013 | If NI didn't go "easy mapping" route back 10 years ago why should they do it right now when current user need more advanced mapping interface? Especially at this age of controllerism when DJ techniques are going wild. Wish they care more for the mappings though, luckily I have a time machine to access all of the 32 modifiers from Traktor pro 4 |
| Rolanda Clodfelder 21.10.2013 | Take a note from TORQ 2 perhaps rather than Ableton, now that was straightforward - easy to map multiple effects to a single knob, easy as hell to set LED outputs. No need to go through a million settings/submenus. Click, Learn, setup parameters, it SHOULD be that easy on any software that implements midi ... Unless of course your endgame is for users to only use your specific pre-mapped controllers at which stage making it a PITA is beneficial. |
| Brunilda Kora 21.10.2013 | I'm just now learning mappings in Traktor. I've found a couple of useful guides on the 'web, but it's still a lot of trial and error when you're learning. Unless I've missed a guide/tutorial/manual that is out there that gives a decent walk through of the basics, through to the more complicated functions? |
| Arlette Herubin 21.10.2013 | @nem0nic, Most people, especially me, don't care about lighting up LED's. We just want to knobs on the controller to be mapped directly to software features most of the time. I agree that Traktor mappings system provides more functionality than Ableton's, short of Python and Ableton API (and, I'm sure a bag of Max's "features") But that doesn't negate the fact that what most common use-case should be easy, quick, intuitive = user-friendly. BTW, thanks for the link. As a software engineer, I can really appreciate it. It documents the API amazingly well. I wish the API I deal with at day work had data model diagrams like that attached to them. @makar1 @0Notice I don't doubt the powers of Traktor's controller management UI or it's "learning curve." It's easy to figure out. It just takes a long time to get anything done even after that. Not to mention that it lacks any features that everybody takes from granted from any program that's not open-source freeware. Where is copy/paste, for example. How about making that window resizable? It took NI something like 10 years to make that tiny little improvements. What I'm pissed about is not the lack of some feature, or that it's too complicated. It's the complete lack of empathy for people using that UI. In fact it appears to be hostile to users. Let's say their UI designers were college dropouts with heroin problems (that's the caliber of the UI), the managers could choose to make the ui mappings saved to an XML file. That way more ambitious people could write software to mange the mappings. But nooooooo. Fuck you, users. It's proprietary file format. Anyways, thanks for reading me rant. |
| Valeri Millstein 20.10.2013 | Check out the controller mapping threads... Maybe the "Ultimate FX Thread" so you can see just how powerful mapping can be. Personally, I did not believe the learning curve was difficult after about an hour I was able to do most of the things I wanted to do. Keep at it, and don't complain about your apparent lack of desire to learn or inability to do so. |
| Ada Matzkin 20.10.2013 | Just wanted to point out that the title of this thread is " dear native instruments" and this is clearly the DJ Tech Tools community s. |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 20.10.2013 | Ableton's MIDI implementation is terrible. Yes, at the most superficial it seems more user friendly - but it's also nowhere near as powerful as Traktor's. Want to control LEDs? Learn Python and Live API. Want to change the sensitivity of encoders? Learn Python and Live API. Want to set a variable that changes what controls do? Learn Python and Live API. To do ANYTHING in Live other than the most basic mapping, you need to be a programmer. So yeah, you can either deal with a few menus and oddly named commands, or you can begin here and start learning this. Personally, I prefer not to have to write a script every time I want to map a new controller. |
| Alphonso Deitchman 20.10.2013 | Controlling the onscreen knobs is only a fraction of the things you can do with mappings. |
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