Perplexing sound quality issue with my digital set up in club
Perplexing sound quality issue with my digital set up in club Posted on: 23.06.2012 by Shelton Hoekema Hi everyoneI've recently been playing in a club in Tokyo with my digital set up. One of the big observations was the difference in sound quality between my own gear and that of the clubs. To be honest I am really disappointed that my digital kit doesn't deliver the clean sound the the clubs pioneer CDs and mixer achieves. I really want to know if anyone else has had this problem and what solutions you've found. I'm running Traktor + Audio 4DJ (routed into one of the pioneer mixer's channels) + VCI100 + mixing with WAV files. Some people have said that you need to invest in high end USB and audio cables. Can this be true or is there something I've missed? No matter what I do with the club's pioneer mixer and it's eq's I get a wooly sound. Such to the point that I might ditch my kit and focus on the CDJ set up. | |
| Dorie Scelzo 24.06.2012 | Try turning traktor's master WAY down. The songs are limited hard and probably already causing clipping |
| Dorie Scelzo 24.06.2012 | Try turning traktor's master WAY down. The songs are limited hard and probably already causing clipping |
| Dorie Scelzo 24.06.2012 | Try turning traktor's master WAY down. The songs are limited hard and probably already causing clipping |
| Dorie Scelzo 24.06.2012 | Try turning traktor's master WAY down. The songs are limited hard and probably already causing clipping |
| Dorie Scelzo 24.06.2012 | Try turning traktor's master WAY down. The songs are limited hard and probably already causing clipping |
| Rosina Stanford 25.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Pinkypott
I'm running Traktor + Audio 4DJ (routed into one of the pioneer mixer's channels) + VCI100 + mixing with WAV files.
Some people have said that you need to invest in high end USB and audio cables. Can this be true or is there something I've missed? No matter what I do with the club's pioneer mixer and it's eq's I get a wooly sound. Such to the point that I might ditch my kit and focus on the CDJ set up. |
| Dorie Scelzo 24.06.2012 | Try turning traktor's master WAY down. The songs are limited hard and probably already causing clipping |
| Shelton Hoekema 24.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Jack Bastard
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24.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Hoodless
I'd definitely agree with everyone about the gain staging. There's a really good article somewhere on the web about setting up Traktor's output levels correctly for your soundcard and then boosting on the external mixers gain, I've found far less of a problem balancing my setup with the CDJs since reading it. |
| Venetta Cawyer 24.06.2012 | Please don't jump to conclusions like that. Any competent DJ technician would try at least two or three inputs before blaming the guy's gear . |
| Roseanna Signorini 24.06.2012 | if it sounds fine in the headphones then its most likely either an output problem from the A4 or a problem with that line in the mixer. The sound being described does sound like something is out of phase but how that would happen is beyond me unless all the club gear is synced together and technically out of phase but in phase with each other. It also sounds like you have a filter on. |
| Venetta Cawyer 24.06.2012 | From what I read.. we don't really know a lot about your setup nor do we know a bit about the club's installation. What mixer do they have, what CDJ's do they have? Please tell us about you Traktor settings and your digital setup. For example: OS (Windows/OSX) Sample rate? Buffer? Auto gain on/off? Limiter on/off? Is your software master @ 100? (turn it down to 70% for some overhead. The DAC's inside your A4DJ produce plenty output anyway) Are you using shielded cables? Please do so, it can avoid a lot of trouble What gear does the club have? What DJM? Which CDJ's? Do you use their RCA cables? Which input do you "get/take" on the DJM? I'm the sound engineer at a venue where we rock an awesome Meyer PA (6x MSL4, 6x 700-HP) and work a lot with DJ's who come with Traktor, Serato or who just plug a USB in the CDJ2000's and party hard. The sound difference between the three is still mostly based on the crappy DAC's in the DJM800 that we have but the *very* subtle differences are there. The most noticeable difference is that the analogue inputs on the DJM800 sound way warmer than the digital inputs. But that's A) expected and B) due to 6 year old shitty DAC's But really, for the average Joe, there really isn't any audible difference. Please get back to me with the details I asked and we can help you with the problem |
| Rosina Stanford 25.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Pinkypott
I'm running Traktor + Audio 4DJ (routed into one of the pioneer mixer's channels) + VCI100 + mixing with WAV files.
Some people have said that you need to invest in high end USB and audio cables. Can this be true or is there something I've missed? No matter what I do with the club's pioneer mixer and it's eq's I get a wooly sound. Such to the point that I might ditch my kit and focus on the CDJ set up. |
| Dorie Scelzo 24.06.2012 | Try turning traktor's master WAY down. The songs are limited hard and probably already causing clipping |
24.06.2012 | Might be worth seeing what it sounds like off your computers internal soundcard. |
| Shelton Hoekema 24.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Jack Bastard
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24.06.2012 | And it sounds fine on the headphones? Did you try other mixer ins? |
| Shelton Hoekema 24.06.2012 | Hoodless: On my first gig at this club four months ago, the guys at the club clearly had a major issue with the speakers. There was an almighty pop during my set. It was a complete evening mare. Guys with screw drivers and torches running around. All said, I know that what I got last week was poor but the quality of the audio from the clubs own set up was better than mine by far. To the extent that the do who came on after me, came to booth during my set to see if the mixer was working properly. The difference between the set ups was really perceivable. For everyone's benefit in this post thread, when I meant wooly, the mid's sounded distant, lacking presence or stereo, the high ends were crashy. It's was like playing the sound of glass bell through a bad car stereo. No matter what I did with the eq's on either my own controller or the club's mixer I couldn't improve the sound. |
24.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by Hoodless
I'd definitely agree with everyone about the gain staging. There's a really good article somewhere on the web about setting up Traktor's output levels correctly for your soundcard and then boosting on the external mixers gain, I've found far less of a problem balancing my setup with the CDJs since reading it. |
| Dione Haimes 24.06.2012 | Nobody ruled out that that the clubs speakers could be old/worn/abused/blown? |
| Shelton Hoekema 24.06.2012 | hi guys I've only looked at my post once since yesterday and completely bowled over at the responses. Huge thanks for taking interest. I believe everyone's got some interesting solutions here and I reckon that the gain on my controller and that with the pioneer mixer might not be optimised. I do remember the guys plugging my leads into the 'Cd line' of one of the channels, not the phono's. I will buy a better set of leads to count all else out to. What this all tells me is that I really more time setting up, including more time doing a proper sound check. Nothing has disappointed me more than hearing the next dj after me with a better sound! Thanks For the awesome response again |
| Sammie Okeeffe 24.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by deevey
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| Bertie Metro 24.06.2012 | I'd look into the direction Mostapha has given : the gain staging. It's ultimately what has the biggest impact on sound quality, along with the key lock and the quality of the audio file itself (but that isn't the problem apparently). Plus the op is mixing internal, and well, the traktor internal eq are ok, but i'm not totally convinced by them. Maybe try a different set of eq from the list. I changed several times the one i use. In the end i found the xone 4 band to be the more convincing one (i use it with 3 knobs, with the bass mapped to both low bass and mid low with a 25% curve and zero reset at the center for the mid low). |
| Rey Holubar 24.06.2012 | Interesting discussion. Hope the OP comes back to report what he found and if some of the suggestions here helped at all. Would be pretty cool to know as a "beginner". scamo |
| Rebbecca Fennell 23.06.2012 | speaking loosely about my experience with my audio 4 - its been a problematic card. i wouldnt rule that out. im looking forward to ditching this piece of shit... |
| Rolanda Clodfelder 23.06.2012 | Keylock/Transpose mebelieves... I know for sure causes a "Mushy" "Wooly" "Cushiony" sound on some tracks. A double blind with another CD player (doesn't need to be a pioneer) with all options turned off e.g. Keylock. Tracks pitched to Zero% on both, auto gain/limiter off and then start turning on stuff at different % to see which holds up better or causes a mushy sound. |
| Rochel Gleese 23.06.2012 | There's the same discussion going on at Traktors community
s with a guy saying his CDJ2000 sound much better compared to his Audio8. I thought maybe the limiter, gain, main volume could be the problem, but it wasn't it. I guess the difference of the converters could be the problem, but I guess we're getting into Gearslutz audiophile discussion. Double double blind listening tests? |
| Dorie Scelzo 23.06.2012 | Cables are cables to a great degree. If they're not broken, they work…differences are in how long they last, how easy the connectors are to fix, and how well they coil. |
| Rolanda Clodfelder 23.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
Also the limiters in Traktor, off, Autogain off and bring the gains on the channels in Traktor wayyyy down even mixing externally. Oh and no - you certainly don't need to invest big bucks on cables, I've played on pretty high end systems with both $1 RCA's (stuck) and $20 RCA's and neither made no audible difference, but obviously a big diff in reliability. My happy medium is a few sets of $5 shielded Car Stereo RCA's for gigging (ok so they are a lil more expensive @ $12 on amazon) - won't fit an Audio4 though (too fat) or id link them. Alot of the car audio stuff is as good (if not better and cheaper) than "hifi" cables costing considerably more and alot are shielded well to take into account all the extra electricals/grounding etc going on in a car and no doubt sold in every corner shop in Tokyo. BTW did I mention your a lucky git hope I get a chance to play there sometime. |
| Jerica Salava 23.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
> |
| Dorie Scelzo 23.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by manchild
I would like to know about his gain staging, though…I believe that's probably where the issue is. I have no idea what a "wooly" sound is, but it could mean digital distortion from running traktor too hot……which is really easy because NI doesn't believe in meters. |
| Addie Engbrecht 23.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
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| Dorie Scelzo 23.06.2012 | Are you getting your gain staging correct? Where is Traktor peaking internally? Where do you have it set going into the mixer? etc. |
| Jerica Salava 23.06.2012 | thanks for trying to solve the problem guys. you believe everytime a DJ goes from CDJ to Traktor there is a sound drop off? c'mon guys. Traktor would be dead. use your brains. you guys sound just like the 320k mp3 VS WAV idiots. |
| Addie Engbrecht 23.06.2012 |
Originally Posted by D-Kem
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| Lauretta Ehrhorn 23.06.2012 | Analog mixers feel better to mix on though :-) |
| Lauretta Ehrhorn 23.06.2012 | Analog doesn't necessarily sound better and he's running through the external mixer, not straight to Club PA. |
| Yong Aptekar 23.06.2012 | Analog sounds warmer than digital. If you use an analog mixer, it will always sound "better"* than a digital controller. That's why many people choose to mix timecode with a mixer in external rather than a controller in internal mode. *better - subjective. Same as vinyl sounds better than CD. Might not sound better to everyone, but generally, most people will tell you analog sounds better. |
| Addie Engbrecht 23.06.2012 | A little off topic, but have you considered just using the clubs gear ? One of the reasons they invest big money in house gear is to assure they will have good quality sound, among other things. Maybe next time instead of using just your set-up, or using just their CDJ's, you can incorporate your Audio 4 with their CDJ's using DVS, and you can see if it sounds any different. If it sounds good, you can probably eliminate the Audio 4 as being the problem you are having with sound quality. |
| Jerica Salava 23.06.2012 | weird. There is thousands of people out there using your exact set-up. You would have heard about issues out there before. I would try unhooking the CDJ and going straight into that input. Maybe stupid observation, but make sure you are not in a phono input. One DJ once switched my line input to phono to sabotage my set. I noticed immediately and he had left the party in a hurry. You could try different wires but they don't have to be expensive. Maybe one of yours is just defective. I am interested to see the resolution here. |
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