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Powering a rave in a field ?

Home :: General Discussion :: Powering a rave in a field ?Reply

Powering a rave in a field ? Posted on: 30.07.2012 by Eleanore Hartmeyer Hey guys, got a rave/jam sesh coming off soon. I am wondering how can we power this event as we havent done this before and would liek to gain knowledge from those of you who may have done this before. This is a list of the gear that will be used in terms of wattage. Speakers powered by 800 watt amp Hazer 600 watts Lights 400 watts Guitar amps 300 watts We have the choice of using a sheds power supply, daisy chaining extension leads 250 metres to the location, yes this does sound very stupid, so I doubt we should do that. We also have 3 generators. So we should go with the generators ? Sorry I know its stupid just wondering from other peoples experience and opinion on what to do.
Sulema Eshel 06.08.2012	Originally Posted by Publicservice as far as generators go, if you have the money go diesel or go home. pricey but man are they worth it Agreed, unless you have to lug the heavy so-and-so's miles!! Much cheaper on fuel tho And if you're hiring, don't worry about all this 3 phase 120V shenanigans. Just ask the guy in the hire shop! You're 230V anyways, so will plug straight in usually with a blue plug - something like this: image_600_600__11605.jpg
Sulema Eshel 06.08.2012	Originally Posted by audiolive You guys need to get out more Yeah, we do, every weekend This was last weekend 552584_502354706457021_1672334880_n.jpg
Addie Engbrecht 02.08.2012	Originally Posted by Da3dalus Im kind of confused about the terms you use such as tap and hot. If you could explain? Also I went to a tool hire and they set me up with a 10kva genny so that should do the trick I also asked if it needed to be grounded and he said no. Do gennys work differently in America because of the voltage that they have to be grounded? I wouldnt worry too much about it. I'm guessing that some of the stuff I mentioned a lot of experienced electricians wouldnt know. If you're still interested, I can try to explain it, but it's def not something you'll need to know for you're gig. As for your grounding question, I don't know any code from your area, but I do know theory, and obviously electrical theory holds true no matter the area you live in. So I wouldnt know any additional requirements they might have in your area. In the US, the only time they require you to do anything w/ grounding of a generator, is when the stuff you are connecting to the generator aren't cord and plug ( Basically your not plugging your gear into the generator with a cord or you're plugging into the generator with a cord but you put in a distribution box and powering your gear off that), or if you have a gas tank that isnt plastic or if it's metal it isnt bonded (grounded). They would then make you drive a ground rod into the earth, and this basically makes the earth a big conductor back to the source. Connecting to the Earth doesnt make it a "better" ground, it's simply just a path for short circuit voltage to travel back to the source. Contrary to popular belief, electricity doesnt want to just travel into the earth, it wants to get back to the source (generator). So if you didnt have any ground rods in the earth or if the earth wasn't somehow bonded to the generators magnetic coils, then electricity wouldnt flow thru the earth. Basically what I'm saying is, when you get that 10KVa generator, if the legs of it were plastic or they are isolated from the earth, you could plug a cord into it, strip the end of that cord so that the individual conductors are showing, take the live wire (hot) and stuff it right into the dirt beneath you, and nothing would happen since the current has no way of getting back to the source.
Addie Engbrecht 02.08.2012	Originally Posted by rotebass That's an mature response. Earth and neutral are NOT interchangeable for entertainment usage. Say what you want, but I've seen inspectors ream guys out - and stop shows - for this. This has nothing to do w/ not running a seperate Neutral. I'm talking about the tap. The tap is the same. You would still need to run a seperate neutral along w/ a ground (just in case you care, "Earth" is entirely the wrong term). Basically you would run a neutral (grounded conducter proper term but no one calls it that) and a ground (grounding conductor is the proper term, but again no one calls it that) , and they both would be connected to the same tap off the generator. Also (again, in case you care), I believe the code article you are reffering to has less to do with the fact that it is for entertainment, and more to do with the fact that the only time you can use a wire as both a ground and neutral is if it's an older appliance that was listed for this use (grandfathered in), also the conductor has to have insulation and cant be bare, and the Panel (generator in this example) you are connecting the load to also has to be the point where the ground and neutral are bonded (system bonding jumper). The ground/neutral tap on the generator would be your system bonding jumper, and thus you could by code connect a 3 wire oven, dryer, etc. There are no other instances where you could do this. If you're taking that 4 wire feed , that has the neutral/ground tapped off the same tap on the generator, and then setting up your own panel to tap all your loads off of, then at that panel you need to isolate the ground and neutral at all times. Basically, anything after the system bonding jumper, ground and neutral must be isolated. This rule applies for anything, wether it's Industrial, commercial, residential, or even generators
Lela Umanskaya 02.08.2012	Originally Posted by manchild Says the guy that gave out wrong information in the first place on the subject. Hate to break it to you, but ground and neutral tap are the same tap in this situation. There are just other things by code you must do if your loads arent cord and plug connected (IE setting up suplemental ground rods), but I guess I have no clue what I am talking about. That's an mature response. Earth and neutral are NOT interchangeable for entertainment usage. Say what you want, but I've seen inspectors ream guys out - and stop shows - for this.
Addie Engbrecht 01.08.2012	Originally Posted by rotebass Illegal. Says the guy that gave out wrong information in the first place on the subject. Hate to break it to you, but ground and neutral tap are the same tap in this situation. There are just other things by code you must do if your loads arent cord and plug connected (IE setting up suplemental ground rods), but I guess I have no clue what I am talking about.
Lela Umanskaya 01.08.2012	Originally Posted by manchild there is 120v there, you just need to tap off the ground lug to get your neutral Illegal.
Addie Engbrecht 31.07.2012	Originally Posted by rotebass , some welding units, and older appliances use three conductors (hot, neutral and earth) which is illegal for entertainment usage. . A little off topic, and not sure if you care or not, but just an FYI, in the US, a 240V welder is (Hot, Hot, Ground) and older style plugs for appliances would technically be (Hot, Hot, Ground/Neutral). If you get a 240v only genny in the future, there is 120v there, you just need to tap off the ground lug to get your neutral, in the code for generators you open up a can of worms as soon if you are not cord and plug connecting stuff, but just throwing some useless knowledge out there in case you are one of those that care about knowing about stuff like that.
Sulema Eshel 06.08.2012	Originally Posted by Publicservice as far as generators go, if you have the money go diesel or go home. pricey but man are they worth it Agreed, unless you have to lug the heavy so-and-so's miles!! Much cheaper on fuel tho And if you're hiring, don't worry about all this 3 phase 120V shenanigans. Just ask the guy in the hire shop! You're 230V anyways, so will plug straight in usually with a blue plug - something like this: image_600_600__11605.jpg
Sulema Eshel 06.08.2012	Originally Posted by audiolive You guys need to get out more Yeah, we do, every weekend This was last weekend 552584_502354706457021_1672334880_n.jpg
Claude Koveleski 04.08.2012	You guys need to get out more
Carmelo Politowicz 04.08.2012	This is why I leave things that can kill you to experts. I am so confused.
Debrah Arnaout 02.08.2012	as far as generators go, if you have the money go diesel or go home. pricey but man are they worth it
Addie Engbrecht 02.08.2012	Originally Posted by Da3dalus Im kind of confused about the terms you use such as tap and hot. If you could explain? Also I went to a tool hire and they set me up with a 10kva genny so that should do the trick I also asked if it needed to be grounded and he said no. Do gennys work differently in America because of the voltage that they have to be grounded? I wouldnt worry too much about it. I'm guessing that some of the stuff I mentioned a lot of experienced electricians wouldnt know. If you're still interested, I can try to explain it, but it's def not something you'll need to know for you're gig. As for your grounding question, I don't know any code from your area, but I do know theory, and obviously electrical theory holds true no matter the area you live in. So I wouldnt know any additional requirements they might have in your area. In the US, the only time they require you to do anything w/ grounding of a generator, is when the stuff you are connecting to the generator aren't cord and plug ( Basically your not plugging your gear into the generator with a cord or you're plugging into the generator with a cord but you put in a distribution box and powering your gear off that), or if you have a gas tank that isnt plastic or if it's metal it isnt bonded (grounded). They would then make you drive a ground rod into the earth, and this basically makes the earth a big conductor back to the source. Connecting to the Earth doesnt make it a "better" ground, it's simply just a path for short circuit voltage to travel back to the source. Contrary to popular belief, electricity doesnt want to just travel into the earth, it wants to get back to the source (generator). So if you didnt have any ground rods in the earth or if the earth wasn't somehow bonded to the generators magnetic coils, then electricity wouldnt flow thru the earth. Basically what I'm saying is, when you get that 10KVa generator, if the legs of it were plastic or they are isolated from the earth, you could plug a cord into it, strip the end of that cord so that the individual conductors are showing, take the live wire (hot) and stuff it right into the dirt beneath you, and nothing would happen since the current has no way of getting back to the source.
Eleanore Hartmeyer 02.08.2012	Im kind of confused about the terms you use such as tap and hot. If you could explain? Also I went to a tool hire and they set me up with a 10kva genny so that should do the trick I also asked if it needed to be grounded and he said no. Do gennys work differently in America because of the voltage that they have to be grounded?
Addie Engbrecht 02.08.2012	Originally Posted by rotebass That's an mature response. Earth and neutral are NOT interchangeable for entertainment usage. Say what you want, but I've seen inspectors ream guys out - and stop shows - for this. This has nothing to do w/ not running a seperate Neutral. I'm talking about the tap. The tap is the same. You would still need to run a seperate neutral along w/ a ground (just in case you care, "Earth" is entirely the wrong term). Basically you would run a neutral (grounded conducter proper term but no one calls it that) and a ground (grounding conductor is the proper term, but again no one calls it that) , and they both would be connected to the same tap off the generator. Also (again, in case you care), I believe the code article you are reffering to has less to do with the fact that it is for entertainment, and more to do with the fact that the only time you can use a wire as both a ground and neutral is if it's an older appliance that was listed for this use (grandfathered in), also the conductor has to have insulation and cant be bare, and the Panel (generator in this example) you are connecting the load to also has to be the point where the ground and neutral are bonded (system bonding jumper). The ground/neutral tap on the generator would be your system bonding jumper, and thus you could by code connect a 3 wire oven, dryer, etc. There are no other instances where you could do this. If you're taking that 4 wire feed , that has the neutral/ground tapped off the same tap on the generator, and then setting up your own panel to tap all your loads off of, then at that panel you need to isolate the ground and neutral at all times. Basically, anything after the system bonding jumper, ground and neutral must be isolated. This rule applies for anything, wether it's Industrial, commercial, residential, or even generators
Lela Umanskaya 02.08.2012	Originally Posted by manchild Says the guy that gave out wrong information in the first place on the subject. Hate to break it to you, but ground and neutral tap are the same tap in this situation. There are just other things by code you must do if your loads arent cord and plug connected (IE setting up suplemental ground rods), but I guess I have no clue what I am talking about. That's an mature response. Earth and neutral are NOT interchangeable for entertainment usage. Say what you want, but I've seen inspectors ream guys out - and stop shows - for this.
Addie Engbrecht 01.08.2012	Originally Posted by rotebass Illegal. Says the guy that gave out wrong information in the first place on the subject. Hate to break it to you, but ground and neutral tap are the same tap in this situation. There are just other things by code you must do if your loads arent cord and plug connected (IE setting up suplemental ground rods), but I guess I have no clue what I am talking about.
Lela Umanskaya 01.08.2012	Originally Posted by manchild there is 120v there, you just need to tap off the ground lug to get your neutral Illegal.
Addie Engbrecht 31.07.2012	Originally Posted by rotebass , some welding units, and older appliances use three conductors (hot, neutral and earth) which is illegal for entertainment usage. . A little off topic, and not sure if you care or not, but just an FYI, in the US, a 240V welder is (Hot, Hot, Ground) and older style plugs for appliances would technically be (Hot, Hot, Ground/Neutral). If you get a 240v only genny in the future, there is 120v there, you just need to tap off the ground lug to get your neutral, in the code for generators you open up a can of worms as soon if you are not cord and plug connecting stuff, but just throwing some useless knowledge out there in case you are one of those that care about knowing about stuff like that.
Lela Umanskaya 31.07.2012	Originally Posted by Da3dalus thanks lads for all the great replys Dont worry it is a small gig inside a marquee (should have went into detail) speakers are grand for what we are doing. yeah the daisy chain of power is a big risk, very big safety risk. I believe I will go with renting a large kilowatt genny, and also make sure its split phase gen thanks rotebass Again thanks guys for all the replys Like I said, I'm not sure what the power situation is like for you gents, so split phase might not even be an issue on that side of the pond. In north america, you need 4 conductors to safely carry a 230V split phase feed (hot, hot, neutral, earth), some welding units, and older appliances use three conductors (hot, neutral and earth) which is illegal for entertainment usage. Again, somebody with experience in your country should hopefully pipe in with the applicable details for your power grid. All I'm saying is make sure that your tie-in meets code and is something that you can actually make use of.
Flora Kascak 31.07.2012	Originally Posted by Da3dalus thanks lads for all the great replys Dont worry it is a small gig inside a marquee (should have went into detail) speakers are grand for what we are doing. yeah the daisy chain of power is a big risk, very big safety risk. I believe I will go with renting a large kilowatt genny, and also make sure its split phase gen thanks rotebass Again thanks guys for all the replys Genny's are deffo the way forward, hire shops like HSS will do the trick, if not any local plant hire company will have them or smaller local hire shops, make sure it's right for the job and you can run your gear off it, I had a silenced 10kva genny not long since and it was way too big for what I wanted but it cost nothing!!! Good luck with your do mate!!!
Eleanore Hartmeyer 31.07.2012	thanks lads for all the great replys Dont worry it is a small gig inside a marquee (should have went into detail) speakers are grand for what we are doing. yeah the daisy chain of power is a big risk, very big safety risk. I believe I will go with renting a large kilowatt genny, and also make sure its split phase gen thanks rotebass Again thanks guys for all the replys
Lela Umanskaya 31.07.2012	Originally Posted by audiolive IMO best bet is to hire a big genny so you don't have to worry about it. Nothing worse the a gig going dark and silent. Bingo, and make sure that it has tie-ins that you can actually use. I've had a few promoters cheap out and get a welders genny, only to find that the 240V wasn't split phase (ie didn't have two hots and a neutral from which to derive 120V), forcing me to run a whole rig on two 15A. Edit: I'm in North america, so the power situation is probably different, but still, make sure it has something you can tie into.
Monique Swanier 31.07.2012	800watts for speakers.... hmmmm =/
Sulema Eshel 31.07.2012	Brain dump, may not be 100%: You haven't mentioned the size of the gennies that you have. We run a 2.4K AND a 2.5K amp, along with decks, cdj's mixer and LED lights (and a phone charger or 2 off a 3.7kVA diesel genny (how?!). We HAVE even run the rig off a 2.4kVA petrol one, although one of the amp channels and a few other bits and bobs were not in use. Saying this, the wattage of the amp isn't always the best bet to determine how much power it draws. If it is a class A amp for example, it will draw far more power than a class D at a set output wattage. It is often hard to find the actual power draw of an amp - try checking the specs on the internet, but the current draw is not always published. For example we have an 800W system, that draws 1395kVA (about 1110W) so if you used the "800W" figure, you would be underestimating the amount that it needs. If you can, put all the sound gear on one genny, and everything else (hazer, lights) on another. That way you should avoid ground loops. If you have to share the audio gear across 2 gennies, tie their earth leads together before you stake them in the ground - this again should help reduce ground loop noise. Whatever you do though, make sure the gennies are grounded... only just learnt about that one... luckily it was before we blew anything up! Sorry if I have confused the issue... best bet is to try it beforehand... a FULL rehearsal and see how it copes - suggest slowly loading the gennies, rather than switching everything on at once. 250m via extensions.. please NO! And you can't beat a rave/free party in a field in the middle of summer - been doing it for 40,000 years, and now are they trying to stop us.... not gonna happen!
Jonathan Chiuchiolo 31.07.2012	you should definitely hire out some bigger sound and an industrial generator to run it otherwise it's going to be a small party, then run the lights off a small generator and a fridge or two off another... Also I'm pretty sure guitar amps are tuned for specific frequencies so probably not going to be that great sounding at best and blow up at worst... Me and my mates used to have bush doofs a few years ago, usually cost $380 for a generator on a trailor and two 18 subs with dual 15 tops. just charge everyone $5 so you can pay for the system and a keg, then everyone's happy. If more than 100 people pay you can start saving for your own system and eventually won't have to hire one. Lastly make sure you either have no neighbours or tell them it's someone's birthday otherwise you will get shut down because 250m is nothing at evening ... usually your only safe after about a kilometre and even then you can have jerks calling the cops saying they can hear it LOL! It's good fun though so have a blast!
Claude Koveleski 31.07.2012	You will need more speakers IMO. Generator is your only real choice. The voltage drop from a extension leads even 50 meters long would be way too much yet alone 250 meters long. To work out the generator size you need to know the current draw of the gear . Then add 20% for head room. If you are using a few smaller generators ensure you have the audio and lighting on seperate generators or phases (if its a multi phase genny). IMO best bet is to hire a big genny so you don't have to worry about it. Nothing worse the a gig going dark and silent.
Darlene Strohbeck 31.07.2012	Originally Posted by Da3dalus Hey guys, got a rave/jam sesh coming off soon. I am wondering how can we power this event as we havent done this before and would liek to gain knowledge from those of you who may have done this before. This is a list of the gear that will be used in terms of wattage. Speakers powered by 800 watt amp Hazer 600 watts Lights 400 watts Guitar amps 300 watts We have the choice of using a sheds power supply, daisy chaining extension leads 250 metres to the location, yes this does sound very stupid, so I doubt we should do that. We also have 3 generators. So we should go with the generators ? Sorry I know its stupid just wondering from other peoples experience and opinion on what to do. Is that amp 800watts peak, or RMS? In any case, if it's either, I would say it's not enough for the outdoors. How many people are you expecting and how far do you want to hear the music? Daisy chaining power over 250 meters?! I don't know if there are any known power delivery issues with carrying it over that much length of cord, but you'll definitely find out. I'm no electrician, but I know that having that many high wattage machines connected to one outlet is a really bad idea, unless you know for sure that it's safe and sound. I believe the generators are your best bet.

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Powering a rave in a field ?