Controllers in live performance - a question...
Controllers in live performance - a question... Posted on: 30.10.2012 by Diogo Dj Dragão I'm trying to get my head around how extensively controllers are being used as PRIMARY control devices in live performances. I'm not worried about what software is used, but what I'm looking for are people who interact with that software with controllers and not more traditional means. So to be clear, if they use CDJs or turntables I'm not at all interested in them - even if they use controllers in a cool way (Shiftee is a great example of this - amazing routines but primary "controller" is a turntable).So who do you guys know of? | |
| Danae Dumler 01.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
To respond to the original question, I saw Magda rock it with just two X1s not that long ago. Nobody in the house seemed to care that she wasn't using "real" DJ gear . No idea if that's her regular setup. But since you're not just interested in "DJs'" look into folks like Evolution Control Committee, who performs using a novel interactive video controller that he designed with a couple old Wii machines and a projector. And of course Moldover who also designs his own gear as someone else mentioned. Guess these folks don't qualify as top tier but whatever; they scrape out a living doing whatever it is you call what they're doing, and people seem to have heard of them. |
| Shonda Soulier 01.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
I'm not bothered by the fact that Rob Swire uses a Midi guitar, nor should anybody else be. He's obviously a talented, accomplished guitar player who saw a benefit to using a Ztar, and not simply because it's "cool". It opened up a new range of possibilities and maybe a touch of added convenience (no tuning or strings to replace). But I can tell you one thing, it's not because he wanted to save a few dollars or take the easy way out. |
| Dorie Scelzo 31.10.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
Taken by my girlfriend at Dragoncon 2012 after their show. We also saw Manson & Rob Zombie last week. (side note: Manson's off the wagon hard core and was so wasted that he didn't even know his own lyrics……Rob Zombie was freaking impressive for a 47 year old rock star, and John5–playing with Zombie–was the star of the show as far as I'm concerned……I joke that metal/industrial guitar is nothing but sweep picking and weird scales, but he made it look effortless and actually had some emotion to it…which is awesome) Anyway……… In general, I believe there's actually more "controllers" in use in the goth/industrial and "modern punk" scenes than the dance scenes. Bella Morte uses mostly live instruments, but keyboards are playing synths. Combichrist has fun destroying keyboards on stage. What does Caustic perform with? I'm not sure he's top-tier by anyone's definition, but he's also on the forefront of financing his career with Kickstarter as opposed to a Label, which is kind of cool. And AFAIK, it's just one guy. I'd imagine he's either using backing tracks or some kind of controller setup.
Originally Posted by nem0nic
Ritchie Hawtin isn't really doing anything in his Traktor+Maschine DJ sets that he didn't do with his decks, effects, and mc-909 sets from a few years ago……except that he's not beat matching anymore and the setup is all centered around computers. It's probably a lot easier to set up & tear down. And it's probably more consistent. The tour he did with other Minus artists a few years ago (forgot the name) and his Plastikman shows are probably the most controller-centric performances in the dance world right now (from top-tier artists). And to my knowledge, it's still just the same kinds of things people did 30 years ago with sequencers, synths, & drum machines during the rave days. Daft Punk's Alive tour is another example of using controllers……but AFAIK, they were basically just replacing all the gear of their old live show with controllers for Live. The problem–as I see it–is that these controllers, mostly, just make live sets like that cheaper. They haven't added that much in terms of what you can make, and they haven't really changed how you do it. They haven't even really made it easier, as there always were ways to keep notes in key/scale. And with the dance scene being so much more evolved than it was during the rave days–and appealing to people with shorter attention spans and less of a desire for "new" music regardless of quality–the barrier for entry isn't any lower either. That's exacerbated by the proliferation of big clubs and big festivals……it takes a lot to break into them. There's probably a few guys/groups out there with APC40s or Maschines and vocalists/instrumentalists that are capable of putting on a Live Set that rivals anything from the rave days……they just don't have the same avenues to get out there and might have gone in a different direction as a result of it. I mean………you and I talked a lot about Live back not long after I started DJing. You're right. It's not DJing anymore if you're doing anything more interesting than what Skrillex did. Even people I like–Felix Cartal comes to mind–tend to use it so they can "just press play" because their focus was on production. That is DJing, but it's nothing you can't do with 1200s. Taking it from that world into the "actually performing music" world means that you have to write enough music–and learn to perform it–to entertain people for an hour or more……where you're responsible for everything. It's a lot easier to learn to play guitar. Or drums. Or anything else. Then, you just have to find people you like and write songs together. Then you have to figure out where you can play it. And you have to keep it fresh enough that people don't get sick of it. Imagine playing the same 10 songs every week at a local club? You might get asked back a second time, but by the 3rd week, you'd get dropped for some random DJ who has 1000 local facebook/twitter fans. Who wants to write 10 songs/week? And get them up to performance level where they're responsible for everything from sound design to mastering. The barriers to entry for those types of performances haven't changed at all. If anything, they're harder. I believe that's why they haven't taken off, at least the performances you're talking about. |
| Dorie Scelzo 30.10.2012 | I remember seeing pete tong a couple years ago using X1s at a pool party during WMC or Music Week or something like that. I have no idea if you'd consider him "upper end" as opposed to just famous. And he was just DJing. I also don't know if he's still DJing like that. BT's used a plethora of controllers to control Live, though I'm sure you knew that. I believe VNV nation uses controllers, but they're likely just playing soft synths and drum synths/samplers with pads. The Cr |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 30.10.2012 | I'm trying to get my head around how extensively controllers are being used as PRIMARY control devices in live performances. I'm not worried about what software is used, but what I'm looking for are people who interact with that software with controllers and not more traditional means. So to be clear, if they use CDJs or turntables I'm not at all interested in them - even if they use controllers in a cool way (Shiftee is a great example of this - amazing routines but primary "controller" is a turntable). So who do you guys know of? |
| Kellie Myrum 01.11.2012 | From my viewpoint the upper end shouldn't be considered in how many controllers are digital DJs using in live performance but in the way how are they using controllers to improve and define their style and techniques. Most of people don't push their controller's potential to max because they don't dig enough into mappings which can be a game changers for most of them in my opinion. I'm talking about advanced mappings that can turn any MIDI controller into awesome controllerist tool. |
| Kanesha Bredin 01.11.2012 | Controllers are a game-changer in my mind. The future is bright, and controllers are lighting the way. |
| Danae Dumler 01.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
To respond to the original question, I saw Magda rock it with just two X1s not that long ago. Nobody in the house seemed to care that she wasn't using "real" DJ gear . No idea if that's her regular setup. But since you're not just interested in "DJs'" look into folks like Evolution Control Committee, who performs using a novel interactive video controller that he designed with a couple old Wii machines and a projector. And of course Moldover who also designs his own gear as someone else mentioned. Guess these folks don't qualify as top tier but whatever; they scrape out a living doing whatever it is you call what they're doing, and people seem to have heard of them. |
| Dorie Scelzo 01.11.2012 | Nem, those are very good points. I really believe it depends on the world. The dance music world seems to be more resistant than others (e.g., VNV, etc.), which confuses me. For the record, there are still people who believe that tape is superior (not just as an effect, but actually recording to and finishing on tape), that MPCs kill musicians, that sampling is the same as playing a record, and that open tunings on a guitar are a sin (unless you're playing slide for some reason). I would definitely be interested if you can figure out why DJing seems to be lagging behind. |
| Shonda Soulier 01.11.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
I'm not bothered by the fact that Rob Swire uses a Midi guitar, nor should anybody else be. He's obviously a talented, accomplished guitar player who saw a benefit to using a Ztar, and not simply because it's "cool". It opened up a new range of possibilities and maybe a touch of added convenience (no tuning or strings to replace). But I can tell you one thing, it's not because he wanted to save a few dollars or take the easy way out. |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 01.11.2012 |
I don't look goth/industrial, but I love the music and the scene. It's just not my style.
I believe the "issue" is that there aren't really that many people who've clawed up to top-end artist status in the dance scene since controllers became popular.
...it's still just the same kinds of things people did 30 years ago with sequencers, synths, & drum machines during the rave days.
The problem–as I see it–is that these controllers, mostly, just make live sets like that cheaper. They haven't added that much in terms of what you can make, and they haven't really changed how you do it. They haven't even really made it easier, as there always were ways to keep notes in key/scale...
Also, you can't use the price reduction as a pejorative. It's an incredibly important part of this change we're in the middle of. People who would never have been able to explore their creative side are now able to produce incredibly sophisticated content, and then distribute that content worldwide. This is the same kind of innovation that enabled people like Juan Atkins and Derrick May to invent new genres of music - only now that hardware is even more powerful.
It's not DJing anymore if you're doing anything more interesting than what Skrillex did.
I'll use Deadmau5 as an example because it's easy. When I talk to one of his fans and ask about him using a computer in a slightly derogatory way, they usually immediately say something to the effect of "yeah, but he has a ton of hardware synths now as well". You would never see a professional audio engineer say "Yeah, but I also have a razor blade and edit tape right here", because that industry has moved past the point where anyone feels the need to apologize for the use of a DAW.
I believe that's why they haven't taken off, at least the performances you're talking about.
|
| Buford Vitto 31.10.2012 | Eskmo, big gigantic and opiuo are three of my faves all use controllers and all of perform very live as well as savoy |
| Dorie Scelzo 31.10.2012 |
Originally Posted by nem0nic
Taken by my girlfriend at Dragoncon 2012 after their show. We also saw Manson & Rob Zombie last week. (side note: Manson's off the wagon hard core and was so wasted that he didn't even know his own lyrics……Rob Zombie was freaking impressive for a 47 year old rock star, and John5–playing with Zombie–was the star of the show as far as I'm concerned……I joke that metal/industrial guitar is nothing but sweep picking and weird scales, but he made it look effortless and actually had some emotion to it…which is awesome) Anyway……… In general, I believe there's actually more "controllers" in use in the goth/industrial and "modern punk" scenes than the dance scenes. Bella Morte uses mostly live instruments, but keyboards are playing synths. Combichrist has fun destroying keyboards on stage. What does Caustic perform with? I'm not sure he's top-tier by anyone's definition, but he's also on the forefront of financing his career with Kickstarter as opposed to a Label, which is kind of cool. And AFAIK, it's just one guy. I'd imagine he's either using backing tracks or some kind of controller setup.
Originally Posted by nem0nic
Ritchie Hawtin isn't really doing anything in his Traktor+Maschine DJ sets that he didn't do with his decks, effects, and mc-909 sets from a few years ago……except that he's not beat matching anymore and the setup is all centered around computers. It's probably a lot easier to set up & tear down. And it's probably more consistent. The tour he did with other Minus artists a few years ago (forgot the name) and his Plastikman shows are probably the most controller-centric performances in the dance world right now (from top-tier artists). And to my knowledge, it's still just the same kinds of things people did 30 years ago with sequencers, synths, & drum machines during the rave days. Daft Punk's Alive tour is another example of using controllers……but AFAIK, they were basically just replacing all the gear of their old live show with controllers for Live. The problem–as I see it–is that these controllers, mostly, just make live sets like that cheaper. They haven't added that much in terms of what you can make, and they haven't really changed how you do it. They haven't even really made it easier, as there always were ways to keep notes in key/scale. And with the dance scene being so much more evolved than it was during the rave days–and appealing to people with shorter attention spans and less of a desire for "new" music regardless of quality–the barrier for entry isn't any lower either. That's exacerbated by the proliferation of big clubs and big festivals……it takes a lot to break into them. There's probably a few guys/groups out there with APC40s or Maschines and vocalists/instrumentalists that are capable of putting on a Live Set that rivals anything from the rave days……they just don't have the same avenues to get out there and might have gone in a different direction as a result of it. I mean………you and I talked a lot about Live back not long after I started DJing. You're right. It's not DJing anymore if you're doing anything more interesting than what Skrillex did. Even people I like–Felix Cartal comes to mind–tend to use it so they can "just press play" because their focus was on production. That is DJing, but it's nothing you can't do with 1200s. Taking it from that world into the "actually performing music" world means that you have to write enough music–and learn to perform it–to entertain people for an hour or more……where you're responsible for everything. It's a lot easier to learn to play guitar. Or drums. Or anything else. Then, you just have to find people you like and write songs together. Then you have to figure out where you can play it. And you have to keep it fresh enough that people don't get sick of it. Imagine playing the same 10 songs every week at a local club? You might get asked back a second time, but by the 3rd week, you'd get dropped for some random DJ who has 1000 local facebook/twitter fans. Who wants to write 10 songs/week? And get them up to performance level where they're responsible for everything from sound design to mastering. The barriers to entry for those types of performances haven't changed at all. If anything, they're harder. I believe that's why they haven't taken off, at least the performances you're talking about. |
| Ciara Cuttill 31.10.2012 | Most of the techno/minimal dj's use controllers ... such as the CLR guys as well as the M-nus guys. |
| Erich Vallabhaneni 31.10.2012 | +1 for Pinn Panelle, they are extremely talented. |
| Judi Sissel 31.10.2012 | Not to detract from your original post, but IMO, the 'community' does it to itself. People feel like they have to fit into some type of mold as to what DJ'ing is/was. I respect the form of old with the understanding that there are somethings that just cant be replaced. Yet it seems far to often that controllerims(ist), get the short end of the stick. Kind of ironic with the various amount of music/sounds we have available that you really only see a couple of ways of 'performing' it. Not sure if you'd call all the artist upper echelon but: Dubfire Chris Liebing Pete Tong Magda Lance Blaise Dub FX Pinnpinalle (known as a cover band which really incorporates a lot of electronics into a instrumental live performance) . Really believe there should be more this kinda music being produced (more then covered) |
| Brunilda Kora 31.10.2012 | Tom Cosm. DJ Angelo (Turntablist - but does use JUST a 2/4 deck Reloop controller in some vids...) Moldover. |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 31.10.2012 | VNV and Cruxshadows... Didn't know you had goth tenancies, m00. Nice! I guess the lack of activity kind of backs up my suspicion. Even on this community , where controller use is the whole point, people still don't seem to see the use of controllers as aspirational. This question was kind of a gimme, because the answers are plentiful (EVERY Ableton Live artist is a candidate for example). Yet with over 200 views I've received one actual response. |
| Dorie Scelzo 30.10.2012 | I remember seeing pete tong a couple years ago using X1s at a pool party during WMC or Music Week or something like that. I have no idea if you'd consider him "upper end" as opposed to just famous. And he was just DJing. I also don't know if he's still DJing like that. BT's used a plethora of controllers to control Live, though I'm sure you knew that. I believe VNV nation uses controllers, but they're likely just playing soft synths and drum synths/samplers with pads. The Cr |
| Diogo Dj Dragão 30.10.2012 | Hey man, I remember you! Well, I was more talking about artists that play out as a career. The whole TokiMonsta article got me started believeing about it, because she's definitely in the category of artist that I've been wondering about. Sasha and his Maven, or Ritchie Hawtin and his plethora of controllers, Tim Exile, Ill Gates... Those kind of artists. I have a good understanding of how well controllers have penetrated DJing in general, but now I want to get an idea of where we are at the upper end of the user spectrum. |
| Tyisha Towle 30.10.2012 | Hey nem0nic... been a while. (for me anyway...old stanton community
member) By "live performances" does that include straight up DJ gigs, or do you mean live performance as in performing musically? As far as DJ gigs go, I did my first controller-only gig this past Friday... no CD players, no turntables, just a laptop and controller. Probably not very unique considering the multitudes that own hercules, Kontrol S4, S2, etc... Is this what you had in mind? |
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